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New Seismic Module - Concerns Vs Light Mechs


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#61 DeaconW

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:54 PM

View Poststjobe, on 08 May 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

So, you're basically saying that no matter the pilot skill, a Commando or Spider should ALWAYS LOSE to an Atlas? No matter that they both have the speed and agility to constantly be *behind* the Atlas?


No. I am saying that both factors should be important but the scales are still tipped in lights favor right now.

View Poststjobe, on 08 May 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

It's funny that the ones saying "lights are OP" are usually the ones that - if they've ever piloted a light at all - have only piloted the ECM+Streak variants... You don't think it might be something besides the 'mech that's the overpowering factor here?


Um...I drove a Jenner before the COM-2D. Jenner is probably about right now from my limited runs in them since the last patch (haven't played the newest patch yet).

View PostFunkyFritter, on 08 May 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

If you want to know the enemy composition you can scout. If you want to know your target's loadout you can maintain a lock until you have that information. The only way to see if an enemy is equipped with eyes in the back of their head is to attempt a flank and hope they don't, that's the issue with modules that change how you play.


Fair point...

#62 DeaconW

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 08 May 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:


This got fixed. Quite some time ago. Lagshield is gone, hitbox error has been normalised and HSR is in for all non-missile weapons. You are just missing.


No, I am hitting...see it plain as day on my screen. It just doesn't register on the server or only partially registers(especially with PPC's). Others are seeing this as well still. It is most prominent on the Raven 3L from my experience...but I haven't played the patch that came out today...I didn't see anymore corrections in HSR or hit detection in the patch notes.

#63 stjobe

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:06 PM

View PostDeaconW, on 08 May 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

No. I am saying that both factors should be important but the scales are still tipped in lights favor right now.

They really, really aren't. Any decent heavy or assault pilot only needs one or max two shots to either outright kill a light, or leg it and then kill it at their leisure. It has never been harder to pilot a light than it is right now, hence my aversion to making it even harder (by introducing alternatives to traditional light roles instead of rewarding lights for doing those roles).

Had you said this a couple of months back I might have agreed with you, but these days? The scales are very much tipped against the light 'mech.

View PostDeaconW, on 08 May 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Um...I drove a Jenner before the COM-2D. Jenner is probably about right now from my limited runs in them since the last patch (haven't played the newest patch yet).

Ah yes, the Jenner. The by far most powerful light before ECM. It's made a comeback now with Streaks being lower-damage and HSR being in-game, I'd say it's a toss-up between it and the 3L as to the light crown these days.

Take a non-ECM Commando, Spider, or Raven and go against a heavier opponent and then tell me the scales are tipped in the light's favour.

#64 Jonathan Paine

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:33 PM

However, the Seismic Module is not taking away speed and mobility. It is taking away complete invisibility. Further, if the module is limited by range, and can be beaten by a clever light pilot who use speed to circle far around, then tiptoes up... what is the problem?

I would like to see lights have a place as scouts, as harassers, as spotters, as cappers. I want the fighting lights to be rare and limited to the handful of crazies out there who has unmatched skills.

View Poststjobe, on 08 May 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

A light 'mech that's in a stand-up fight with anything is doing it wrong; never pick a fair fight in a light.

However, a light 'mech played to its strengths - speed and mobility - should have an even chance against anything heavier playing to its strengths - usually armour and firepower - given equal pilot skill. If the heavier 'mech can't hit the light due to good piloting and smart positioning, the light should win the fight. If the light cannot take advantage of its superior speed and mobility, the heavier 'mech should win the fight.

It's all about making sure tonnage isn't the sole determining factor of a fight - pilot skill should be what decides the outcome, not 'mech tonnage. Otherwise, what's the use of anything lighter than an Atlas?


#65 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:59 PM

View PostDeaconW, on 08 May 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

No, I am hitting...see it plain as day on my screen. It just doesn't register on the server or only partially registers(especially with PPC's). Others are seeing this as well still. It is most prominent on the Raven 3L from my experience...but I haven't played the patch that came out today...I didn't see anymore corrections in HSR or hit detection in the patch notes.


Genuine point of interest, where do you play from?

View Poststjobe, on 08 May 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Ah yes, the Jenner. The by far most powerful light before ECM. It's made a comeback now with Streaks being lower-damage and HSR being in-game, I'd say it's a toss-up between it and the 3L as to the light crown these days.


Wait until the BAP patch, that'll put it back in it's 'evil little god' position. Interesting to see how it squares out against the usable Raven/Commandos.

View PostJonathan Paine, on 08 May 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

However, the Seismic Module is not taking away speed and mobility. It is taking away complete invisibility. Further, if the module is limited by range, and can be beaten by a clever light pilot who use speed to circle far around, then tiptoes up... what is the problem?


Firstly, it's not taking away 'complete invisibility' - it's taking away the need to be even slightly aware what might be going on outside your direct field of view. Secondly... you're arguing the module is balanced based on qualities we have no knowledge it will possess.

#66 Aaren Kai

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:54 PM

What if the seismic module was not an off/on sorta thing?

I would propose that it's scaled by weight, speed, and distance. You can't hide a 100 ton beast unless its sitting still, and a light under 50-60kh only registers faintly and infrequently (but still does). Top it off with a equally linear distance type equation where you can see the assaults much further out and constant like, the lights are blips that you see and less constant till they are very close.

#67 stjobe

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:33 PM

View PostJonathan Paine, on 08 May 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

I want the fighting lights to be rare and limited to the handful of crazies out there who has unmatched skills.

So in a game of giant robot fighting, you want a quarter of the available giant robots to not be able to fight unless one has "unmatched skills".

Does that really sound right to you?

#68 DeaconW

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 03:57 AM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 08 May 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:


Genuine point of interest, where do you play from?


U.S. Southwest. ping ~50-80 typically.

#69 The Last Blade

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 05:23 AM

LOL anything making light mechs having to use skill or thought is a "light mech nerft" rofl. That is just god awful. What kind of bad says that

#70 MaddMaxx

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 05:45 AM

View Posthammerreborn, on 04 May 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

No, it's a nerf to lights because heavies and assaults and their one shot warrioring will be able to tell where the light is going as it uses cover, as the only real way to fight heavies is rapid directional changes and hit and run, faking out your opponent before you get instantly cored.


And how exactly will having a red triangle, within a maximum of 200m, added to your mini-map, allow you to target anything that you still don't have LoS to? Please elaborate.

#71 MaddMaxx

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 05:52 AM

View Posthammerreborn, on 08 May 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:


Except the "low signal" is a much better indicator of a mech near you than the seismic sensor is, so no, I don't think this is a counter to ECM mechs, just lights who spend all their time sneaking around behind an opponent to have a million "counters" giving away their position.


So instead of "sneaking" at 181m, they will now have to do it at 201m? A nearly catastrophic change for sure.

#72 MaddMaxx

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 06:09 AM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 08 May 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:


Er?

We're objecting to the need for some pilots to have game mechanics make up for their inability to not get out maneuvered and snuck up on. Apparently, people that equate a light mech having a chance to kill someone by ambush with "kill the entire enemy team".

Funny how it's "adapt or die" when you're the one who apparently needs to stack 360o detection modules for fear that there might be four medium lasers and a couple SRMs out of view.


Does the 3600 detect and track ECM based Mechs? Thought you had to get a Lock via LoS and hold that one target to keep it via 3600

Locking ECM Mechs can be a tad difficult if I recall.

#73 Novakaine

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 06:56 AM

Pgi stop adding moronic modules make narc and bap actually work and 95% of these issues would go bye bye.
And ECM should not be a default invisibility shield under a couple hundred meters.
"Yup he's doing it again."
"Yup and pumping some mad ECM too."
"You'd think he'd realize by now"
"Gimme the damn comms."
"Here ya go Lt."
"Perkins!, where the hell do ya think yur going?"
"Er.... nowhere sir just wiping down my cockpit sir."
"Strange because there appears to be 100 tons of Atlai trying to sneak off my base."
"You wouldn't happen to know whose Atlas might that be would ya?"
"Hey could ya wait one Lt............."
"Don't bother Perkins your ECM is working fine, now take a minute and look over here."
"See that guy about a hundred meters away waving at ya."
"Sure do Lt."
"Well that's me dumb ***, now turn that mech around and put it back where ya found it."
"Soooooo Lt. the ECM thingy doesn't work huh"
"Naw Perkins the ECM is just fine, the fact of the matter is I saw ya walking 300 meters away ya clown."
"Oh."

Edited by Novakaine, 09 May 2013 - 07:10 AM.


#74 FupDup

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:44 AM

View PostMr Andersson, on 08 May 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Does lights need another nerf? Yes, they do.

Because the weight class that makes up approximately 10% or less of the game's population definitely is overpowered.


View PostMr Andersson, on 08 May 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

The fact that a light can single-handedly bring down a heavy is just ridiculous. Lights are supposed to be used for scouting, spotting, distraction and such.

Not every light in Battletech is a scout. In fact a huge portion of them are built for direct combat, such as the Adder, Cougar, Mandrill, Hollander, Urbanmech, Jenner, Commando, Spider, and Panther (and many more that I can't remember right now). Yup, that's right, I said that Spiders weren't scouts in TT. They were speed demons with insane maneuverability that could be a PITA to hit and were most often used to exploit rear armor. Commandos and Jenners were both designed, at least in most variants, to carry a good firepower load for their size. The only light in-game you can make a case for being a scout is the 3L (the 2X and 4X were made for combat).


Also, scouting is practically impossible without ECM, thus rendering Jenners and most Commando + Spider + Raven variants unable to scout. If you lack ECM, then the enemy can detect you while you're poking your neck out to see them. This is even worse because most people carry Advanced Sensor Range, and will be even worse yet when the BAP buff comes and people install it on everything. If you can't stick your head out to look at the enemy, you can't be a spotter because your head will get cut off if you try it. To answer a point I'm predicting you to make in response to this, people turn around a lot more often than you might think. Even if they don't see your mech's model, they will still see your red triangle and alert everyone about your sneaky intentions and also throw PPCs, Gauss, and Large Lazors your way. That's all it takes to ruin a non-ECM light pretending to be a scout.


And, even worse, scouting barely rewards the player if at all (in terms of C-Bills and XP). We're mercenaries, we don't fight for charity. To get paid, you have to kill. Don't be surprised that you see lights trying to make a living. Since most battles are trench-warfare in terms of flow, this also means that you almost always know where the enemy will be regardless of whether or not you have a scout. I don't need a 35-metric-ton walking pair of binoculars to tell me that the enemy is behind the ridge for the HUNDREDTH FREAKING TIME this month.


Where exactly have you gotten this "supposed to" thing from, anyways?




Furthermore, the whole idea of bigger = better simply will not work with MWO's mechanics. We lack BV, finite C-Bills, tonnage limits, RnR, no fixed number of pilots, and other factors that gave non-Atlai a purpose. For instance, a stock Atlas had a BV 2.0 value of 1,897. A stock Commando had a BV 2.0 of 541. That means you could take 3.5 Commandos in TT for every enemy Atlas. That was sort of like how in Starcraft, a Protoss Zealot would easily murder a Zergling in a 1 on 1, but Zerglings were fast and cheap to build so you could outnumber the Zealots. Thus, there was some tactical choice involved instead of insta-winning. You can't do that in MWO. We probably never will be able to do anything like that. What anti-light people are suggesting would play out like 8 Zealots against 8 Zerglings.

Edited by FupDup, 09 May 2013 - 07:10 PM.






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