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Lower The Heat Capacity To Lower The Alpha Potential Of Mechs


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Poll: Do you think the heat capacity should be lowered? (80 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you agree with the OP's suggestion?

  1. Yes (47 votes [58.75%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 58.75%

  2. No (30 votes [37.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

  3. Abstain (3 votes [3.75%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.75%

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#1 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:04 AM

The current heat capacity of mechs is (effectively, the calculation works a bit different, but with the current values, this is how it works out) 30 + heat dissipation per second * 10.

That means a mech with 10 standard heat sinks has a heat capacity of 40, a mech with 10 double heat sinks has a capacity of 50, and so on.

My suggestion is to lower this heat capacity, because it is one of the biggest enablers of high damage alpha strikes and effectively cheapens the value of chain-fire mode and heat management.

A low heat capacity can make alpha striking very punishing for most weapons, and makes it impractical to "skimp" on heat dissipation in favor of alpha strike potential. But a mech that still has a good heat dissipation can still use the full firepower of his weapons - he will just resort to chain-firing so he doesn't incur all the heat at once. If you can dissipate the heat your weapons can produce in the same time it takes them to produce it, a low heat cap might force you not to fire them all together, but it allows them to fire the weapons at their maximum rate of fire. If you dissipate less heat than the weapons produce, a lower heat capacity will force you to take a firing break earlier to cool off (but if you still have a high dissipation, you will take less time to recover).

Examples
To show the effects of the current heat capacity on the game and how a change to the heat capacity could change them, here are some examples:

6 PPC Stalker
Let's look at one of our favorite "boogeymans" in the alpha strike discussion - the 6 PPC Stalker.

6 PPCs fired together produce 48 heat. That means just with 10 double heat sinks or with 20 standard heat sinks, you can fire 6 PPCs once and not overheat.
Now, firing once isn't all that impressive, you might say. But, the PPC has a decent range. If you position yourself well enough and have some other allies with similer ranged builds, an enemy will not want to cross that 540m range directly, or risk being shot to death by focused fire.

This means that your PPC boat can get into cover again and cool off. Fully cooling of with just 10 double heat sinks would take 24 seconds, which is a bit much - but a Stalker can easily manage 16 double heat sinks, without sacrificing much, which gives you a heat capacity of 58.4 and a dissipation of 2.84 / sec. That means we need only 17 seconds to negate all the heat, and 13 seconds to repeat a full alpha.

So, if this Stalker gets his 13-17 seconds of cooling time between shots, he can deliver full 60 point damage alpha with high precision. 60 damage is a lot of damage for one hit location - a Stalker's stock side torso armour is only 50, so that means already 10 internal damage, it's arm max armour is 60, stock armour is only 46. For lighter mechs, the situation becomes even worse.
That is 60 damage at the start that could potentially take out a complete hit location - with all the weapons installed. An early destruction of the enemy weaponry means that the enemy team has lost firepower before it could even use it.

Now, what would change if we lowered the heat capacity to, say half this value?

Our 16 DHS mech would have a heat capacity of 29.2.
That means every single alpha would make this mech overheat. This would be somewhat impractical - a shut down mech cannot get back to cover.

3 ER PPC + Gauss Rifle Highlander
Now let'S look at a different mech - a Highlander with 3 ER PPCs and 1 Gauss Rifle.
That'S a 45 damage alpha with an even better range as that of the 6 PPC Stalker. The extra range will give it even more opportunity (particularly on Alpine and Tourmaline) to deliver alphas and move back into cover.

Without much optimziing, I could give it 14 DHS, which gives it a heat capacity of 55.6 and a dissipation of 2.56 heat per second.

It's alpha heat value is 34. It would need a bit more than 13 seconds to dissipate that heat, and a bit less than 5 seconds to launch a second alpha without overheating.
It's not quite as impressive as a single 60 PPC alpha, but it can, relatively quickly, deliver 2 45 damage alphas.

With half the heat capacity, it would have a heat capcity of 27.8. It would again overheat immediately on the first alpha.

Now, if this mech would only use Gauss Rifles and Standard PPCs, it's heat situation wouldn't be as bad, it would produce only 25 point alphas, which would not lead to an immediate shut down. But we've now made it still less "heat effective" as the 6 PPC Stalker is with the current heat mechanics and the high heat capacity, and have a lower alpha strike damage, too.


Now, as you can see, lowering the heat capacity has made these alpha values impractical. Even with mixed weapon combos, the limitations can become severe.


Remember the Splatapult?
The Splatapult is definitely not a long range build. Its 90 damage alphas however were impressive enough that 2 or 3 were usually enough to finish off a mech, and this made the mech pretty fearsome if you met him at close range.

Splatapult produced 24 heat per shot and a simple build might have had a heat capacity of 51.4 and a dissipation of 2.14 heat per second. This would allow roughly 3 alphas in a row without overheating, at the maximum cycle rate.
With half the capacity, the Splatapult would not overheat on the first shot, but it would on the second. This would increase the Splatapult's risk notably, and might give its victims more breathing room.

Of course, since missiles have been changed so much, and will recieve further changes, I won't make any guesses on how good or bad this build will be in the future, with or without heat changes. But the important point here is - even with some of the lower heat alpha builds, the heat cap can make a difference.

What about non-heat limited weapons?
Now, you might ask - what happens if we get the first mech that can carry 4 Gauss Rifles? WHat good does heat capacity do then?
Spoiler


But the PPC sustainable firepower is very poor - Wouldn't this just make them useless?
I'd suggest increasing the heat dissipation. If you go so far as to half the heat capacity, double the dissipation. This will make 6 PPCs alphas impossible, but you would need only half the number of heat sinks to dissipate the same amount of heat, so you can still chain fire a few PPCs. Currently, a PPC produces 2.67 heat per second at its full rate of fire, which would require about 27 standard heat sinks to dissipate. With doubled the dissipation, you need only about 13 standard sinks or 7 Double Heat Sinks. This would allow you to at least build a mech (like the Awesome) that can chain-fire his 3 PPCs at full ROF. A stock Awesome AWS-8Q might suddenly feel useable and not overly punishing. (OF course, upgrading to DHS would still be a good idea - this doesn't change anything about DHS being superior to SHS. It just makes all stock configurations less problematic.)

Why not just adjust the PPC heat, or add an extra heat penalty for alpha striking, or add heat penalties?

1) Adding the PPC heat would make the PPC simply useless for alpha striking and sustained fire. It might remove the alpha strike boats that rely on PPCs, but it doesn't improve the balance.
2) An extra heat penalty for alpha striking is gameable by using Macros, and adds additional complexity to the game. I advise against that.
3) Heat penalties that are triggered below the current heat capacity could also help, but my concern is that at least for the snipers and poptarters, such penatlies are meaningless. The penalty can only start affecting the mech when the shot has already been taking. A shutdown is a very harsh penalty that can stop someone from going back into cover completely - other heat penalties can simply be ignored while you're in cover and cooling off.

#2 Child3k

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:21 AM

I've been thinking about the Heat/SHS/DHS thing for a while now. Maybe a solution would be:
  • Since heat capacity in general is largely defined by mass, just make the capacity bonus for SHS and DHS the same (both weigh in at one ton).
  • Give all DHS a dissipation of 2.0 (or probably higher - whatever balances out).
As a result DHS would not enlarge the max. heat ceiling of a mech and therefore limit alpha striking. But the higher dissipation-rate of DHS would make losing heat easier.

#3 Neolisk

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:10 AM

I would be okay if you remove heat capacity bonus and buff heat dissipation instead. With heat capacity = 30 you cannot safely discharge even 4 PPCs in an alpha. Also make heat dissipation work better at higher heat levels (physics here). Alpha strike problem solved.

#4 The Gunman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:19 AM

The problem isn't the heat capacity.

The problem is that exceeding a mech's heat capacity doesn't cause damage to it. Surely a 6x ERPPC alpha strike would cause catastrophic damage to a mech internals....

Edited by The Gunman, 05 May 2013 - 05:22 AM.


#5 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:26 AM

View PostNeolisk, on 05 May 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

I would be okay if you remove heat capacity bonus and buff heat dissipation instead. With heat capacity = 30 you cannot safely discharge even 4 PPCs in an alpha. Also make heat dissipation work better at higher heat levels (physics here). Alpha strike problem solved.

That could be one way to do it, a fixed heat capacity.

View PostThe Gunman, on 05 May 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

The problem isn't the heat capacity.

The problem is that exceeding a mech's heat capacity doesn't cause damage to it. Surely a 6x ERPPC alpha strike would cause catastrophic damage to a mech internals....

I doubt many are using 6 ER PPCs. 4 ER PPCs, 6 PPCs, 3 ER PPCs and a Gauss Rifle. And all those don't need to worry about catastrophic damage from a single alpha.

#6 DeadlyNerd

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:44 AM

aaaaand we'll be back to dual AC20, dual gauss, ML boats, LL boats.

Sure, there wont be any more PPC boats but is the issue really solved? What a waste of a wall of text.

#7 Neolisk

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:32 AM

View PostDeadlyNerd, on 05 May 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

aaaaand we'll be back to dual AC20, dual gauss, ML boats, LL boats.

Don't see a problem with dual AC20, because of bullet speed being rather low. Dual gauss - such a mech is really fragile and can explode by itself. ML and LL boat was never a problem since every laser is discharged over 1 second interval, not instant.

#8 ArmageddonKnight

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:12 AM

This idea or those very very close to it have been mentioned and polled many times, all coming out with a favorable vote. Those that dont like it usualy argue to 'free customisation' argument, but are generally just wantign to keep their alpha boats.

Unfortunatly PGI have answered in their lasted Answeres: 37 thread that the Module and Heat system are working as intended but they may nerf the PPC. Which as each of these types of posts explain in the OP, will just cause PPC's to be usless as both alpha AND sustained builds.

I honestly cant fathom the mindset of the decision makers at PGI and why they cant see the blatently obviose staring them in the face. A simple change to the heat system would help immesnly with the hotbaoting alpha boats and imporve gameplay. Also a chanign the module system would equal simular results, though would likely requir more work.

Anyway Nice post OP ..but dont hold ur breath .. PGI has their blinkers on and wont be seeing this post.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 05 May 2013 - 08:14 AM.


#9 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:15 AM

View PostDeadlyNerd, on 05 May 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

aaaaand we'll be back to dual AC20, dual gauss, ML boats, LL boats.

Sure, there wont be any more PPC boats but is the issue really solved? What a waste of a wall of text.


Apparantly the wall of text was wasted, because you stopped reading to early. I did address Gauss "boats".
There is a difference between a 30 damage alpha and a 60 damage alpha.

There is also a difference between a 40 damage alpha at 270m and a 40 damage alpha at 540m range.

There is also a different between a 40 damage alpha that is dished out over 1 second, and a 40 damage alpha that is dished out in an instant.

There is a reason why we're talking about PPC snipers and not ER Large Laser and Large Laser snipers.

#10 PocketAces

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:20 AM

I voted No. Why? Because it won't make any difference, there needs to be more penalties for over-heating. At the moment its shoot, overheat, shut down. Power back up at 90% heat shoot, overheat, shut down. Now what should happen is that if you keep shooting like that and overheating your mech has to take damage (internal), with possibilities of criticals, ie losing heatsinks and weapons due to overheating.

#11 Neolisk

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:51 AM

View PostPocketAces, on 05 May 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

with possibilities of criticals, ie losing heatsinks and weapons due to overheating.

This actually sounds interesting, I don't think it was suggested like this before. I mean really - you fired a laser which caused everything to overheat. Logically, what's the hottest component now? Yes, the laser that fired. So if you overheat to shutdown, make it a 25% chance to lose a weapon that caused shutdown to happen.

Example: You fire 6 PPCs and cause shutdown. Statistically, after power up you will have 4-5 PPCs still working. This will make you think before alpha-ing.

Edited by Neolisk, 05 May 2013 - 08:53 AM.


#12 DeadlyNerd

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:23 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 05 May 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:


Apparantly the wall of text was wasted, because you stopped reading to early. I did address Gauss "boats".
There is a difference between a 30 damage alpha and a 60 damage alpha.

There is also a difference between a 40 damage alpha at 270m and a 40 damage alpha at 540m range.

There is also a different between a 40 damage alpha that is dished out over 1 second, and a 40 damage alpha that is dished out in an instant.

There is a reason why we're talking about PPC snipers and not ER Large Laser and Large Laser snipers.

Sorry, but gauss kitty and AC/20 kittiy say that your dual AC/20 and dual gauss problem isn't solved.

You don't solve the problem of boating 1 item by screwing up everybody else that is running heat efficient mechs according to current heat system.
Do you have any idea how quickly a 4x AC/2 mech would heat up if you lowered the threshold? Do you understand what would firing 2x LRM20 mean?

Even if you did lower the threshold people would still be using the PPC boats, just not firing as often. The combat would be even more mundane.

And I thought my argument about people switching to other boats was enough... Speaking of which, do you even know what a skilled 6x LL stalker or a 4x LPL stalker can do? Have you ever spectated one?Have you ever encountered one before this PPC hiatus? I bet you have and I bet you're going to lie about that to cover your argument.

Your wall of text is pointless in every way. If one needs a whole book to explain a simple matter, he doesn't know squat about it. Rephrasing Albert Einstein.
A good suggestion has a short explanation and a list of reasons. Wall of text only means you like hearing yourself speak, so to speak.
See, a reasonable suggestion would be to lower the threshold and increase the speed of heat dissipation so the pace of the combat stays the same. See how I did it in 1 sentence?

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 05 May 2013 - 10:31 AM.


#13 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:28 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 05 May 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

I doubt many are using 6 ER PPCs. 4 ER PPCs, 6 PPCs, 3 ER PPCs and a Gauss Rifle. And all those don't need to worry about catastrophic damage from a single alpha.


All those mechs will still experience drastic overheat from time to time. Forcing internal damage to overheated mechs is a far, far simpler solution to implement from both a balance and a common sense standpoint. Tweaking the heat system would require total recalculations of everything.

#14 FiveDigits

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:24 PM

And we're back to fighting windmills.
As long as even the players don't get how much a lower heat capacity combined with increased dissipation would improve game play I see zero chance for PGI to give in.
Furthermore, I don't see why a lowered heat capacity and heat penalties (HUD interference, internal damage) have to be mutually exclusive. There are very good arguments to implement both. We are wasting the very limited amount of attention the problematic heat situation gets from the devs if we argue which to implement. Both would help fight alpha-heavy gameplay and boating issues.

Edited by FiveDigits, 05 May 2013 - 02:46 PM.


#15 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:27 PM

Broken record - heat capacity should be capped at firing 4 large laser at the same time, or 3 erppc. then improve overall dissapation by about 50%, maybe 100%? and make DHS in engine and outside dissapate at the same rate (1.7?)

more penalties and problems for exceeding 100% heat for more than X seconds. instant death if you go over 120% heat.

now mechs must be built with more than a big alpha in mind, as that big alpha of 4 large lasers or 3 erppc will mean a lot of DHS and dissapation time still then.

#16 Hotthedd

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:36 PM

View PostDeadlyNerd, on 05 May 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Sorry, but gauss kitty and AC/20 kittiy say that your dual AC/20 and dual gauss problem isn't solved.

You don't solve the problem of boating 1 item by screwing up everybody else that is running heat efficient mechs according to current heat system.
Do you have any idea how quickly a 4x AC/2 mech would heat up if you lowered the threshold? Do you understand what would firing 2x LRM20 mean?

Even if you did lower the threshold people would still be using the PPC boats, just not firing as often. The combat would be even more mundane.

And I thought my argument about people switching to other boats was enough... Speaking of which, do you even know what a skilled 6x LL stalker or a 4x LPL stalker can do? Have you ever spectated one?Have you ever encountered one before this PPC hiatus? I bet you have and I bet you're going to lie about that to cover your argument.

Your wall of text is pointless in every way. If one needs a whole book to explain a simple matter, he doesn't know squat about it. Rephrasing Albert Einstein.
A good suggestion has a short explanation and a list of reasons. Wall of text only means you like hearing yourself speak, so to speak.
See, a reasonable suggestion would be to lower the threshold and increase the speed of heat dissipation so the pace of the combat stays the same. See how I did it in 1 sentence?


Funny. You use a wall of text to diss people who write a wall of text, and you seem to think a lower heat threshold would not affect boating 6 Large Lasers or 4 Large Pulse Lasers. Guess what-- it WOULD, as those still generate massive amounts of heat.

#17 Neolisk

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:47 PM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 05 May 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

more penalties and problems for exceeding 100% heat for more than X seconds. instant death if you go over 120% heat.

How about this - chance of a weapon to fail/break permanently is X%, where X is the % over the heat limit, when shutdown happened. So if you are at 99% and you fire 6 PPCs, chance is when you come back, you will have no PPCs at all. Rather liberal - no instant death, but still takes boating under control.

If you just went over the limit by 1-2 points, you will most likely be okay. Encourages to monitor your heat level at all times, but punishes only those who don't care about their heat at all.

#18 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:11 PM

As usual i agree but as usual i have no faith in PGI to see sense on this issue.

#19 Byk

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:29 PM

I actually think taking away the heat capacity increase you get from engine double heat sinks/regular double heat sinks would be interesting. That might help the alpha issue.

#20 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:37 PM

View PostDeadlyNerd, on 05 May 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Sorry, but gauss kitty and AC/20 kittiy say that your dual AC/20 and dual gauss problem isn't solved.

You don't solve the problem of boating 1 item by screwing up everybody else that is running heat efficient mechs according to current heat system.
Do you have any idea how quickly a 4x AC/2 mech would heat up if you lowered the threshold? Do you understand what would firing 2x LRM20 mean?

Even if you did lower the threshold people would still be using the PPC boats, just not firing as often. The combat would be even more mundane.

And I thought my argument about people switching to other boats was enough... Speaking of which, do you even know what a skilled 6x LL stalker or a 4x LPL stalker can do? Have you ever spectated one?Have you ever encountered one before this PPC hiatus? I bet you have and I bet you're going to lie about that to cover your argument.

Your wall of text is pointless in every way. If one needs a whole book to explain a simple matter, he doesn't know squat about it. Rephrasing Albert Einstein.
A good suggestion has a short explanation and a list of reasons. Wall of text only means you like hearing yourself speak, so to speak.
See, a reasonable suggestion would be to lower the threshold and increase the speed of heat dissipation so the pace of the combat stays the same. See how I did it in 1 sentence?


One sentence can explain what the suggestion would change. That's the easy part.
But how do you make people that didn't come up with the suggestion themselves understand how I came up with the suggestion?

E = mc² is a wonderful idea in the world of physical sciences... But if half the people don't know what E, m or c stand for, it cannot be understood, it's a meaningless equation. And if there wasn't a mathematical proof behind it that explains how the formula came to be from existingt theories, and physical evidence suggesting the formula to be true, then scientists would likely have rejected it.





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