15 replies to this topic

[Ragnaphael]

I was reading through several topics on this forum and everywhere where Alpine Peaks was mentioned it seemed to get negative feedback for the assault mode. Thus, to have a clear view on this map and to hopefully (positively or negatively) adjust the percentages of this map appearing in the rotation, I decided to launch this poll.

Note that I made a distinction between PUGging and pre-mades, since I got the impression that for the latter there was less of a negative feedback to this map.

Personally I think the map is biased towards the team starting near the mountain range. Secondly the other team always fights a literal 'up-hill' battle, which is always negative. One good thing of this map is that I've only ever seen a whole team cap race on this map!

Edited by Ragnaphael, 05 May 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[Pater Mors]

Love it. Don't care what side I start on. It's one of the only maps where actual tactics, scouting and team movements are able to be used effectively. Some of my absolute most fun PUG games have been on Alpine.

Edit: Also, I don't see why teams always have to start on an equal footing. When does that ever happen in a real combat situation?

I will admit though, that when you drop with a terrible team that it's a horrible map to be on... everyone just running off in random directions never to be seen again.

However, when you've got two decent weight balanced teams who are communicating and coordinating... well, it's awesome. I think peoples hatred of Alpine comes down to Matchmaker a bit more than just the map. If we got balanced teams more often, the map would be more fun because you'd have people performing their correct roles more often. Also, obviously, if you're not communicating on a map like Alpine then just turn off your PC and go read a Battletech novel instead.

Edited by Pater Mors, 05 May 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

North has a crazy advantage in both cover, height and a more defensible base that can be watched from the top of the mountain. I'd love to see the metrics of which side wins more often.

[silentD11]

Keifomofutu, on 06 May 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

North has a crazy advantage in both cover, height and a more defensible base that can be watched from the top of the mountain. I'd love to see the metrics of which side wins more often.

I kinda agree. In other games map side variance is dealt with by playing each map twice, once from each side. Plus it's not like the other maps don't have a "better" side as well, depending on how you look at it. I'd say River City vastly favors the team with the higher ground based off their ability to see and react to what the other team does. Then again the lower team has the better cap routes to take if they are quick about it and better access to Alcatraz.

With Alpine though the lower base does have a few things going for it.

1. Much easier to watch, set up, and defend against the K-line rush provided you don't advance too far.
2. Much harder to get surprised from people jumping off at your base from the back of it.
3. If you want to defend the hill behind your cap is actually an amazing place to set up and wait till they advance gaining both high ground and much better view.

It's not nearly as bad as most people think it is provided they play defensively. Of course rushing to the middle to play TDM on it yeah, it's at a disadvantage, but that's your teams fault for playing it stupidly.

[Sel Finsert]

It's a boring wasteland of white where if you are in anything other than a light you spend more time walking around than you do fighting on some other maps. And god help you if your lights are in the middle of the map when a cap begins because it is physically impossible to get there before the cap completes even if you're moving at 144kph. It is a irdicullously poorly designed map.

[silentD11]

Sel Finsert, on 09 May 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

It's a boring wasteland of white where if you are in anything other than a light you spend more time walking around than you do fighting on some other maps. And god help you if your lights are in the middle of the map when a cap begins because it is physically impossible to get there before the cap completes even if you're moving at 144kph. It is a irdicullously poorly designed map.

I typically stop caps in a heavy on that map and don't have much of a problem doing it. Then again I don't charge forward.

[Sel Finsert]

I'm sure it must be absolutely lovely standing in spawn for six minutes before you even see an enemy, and then waiting another minute for him to enter range.

[Keifomofutu]

Sel Finsert, on 09 May 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I'm sure it must be absolutely lovely standing in spawn for six minutes before you even see an enemy, and then waiting another minute for him to enter range.

Waitwarrior Online. Oh come on the cappers who tell you to wait at or near base will probably almost never bother guarding their own. They'll just try to cap yours first.

I've completely given up on playing the objective on Alpine or Tourmaline in Assault mode. It's lose lose no matter what you do to try to stop it. Either you get capped or you get pulled way off the line and your outnumbered team gets slaughtered. At least if I stay and fight I get some damage, kills, and credits.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 09 May 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Appogee]

I hate Alpine with a vengeance.

Long pointless trudging across vast open expanses, getting sniped as we go, then the tedious hiding behind the hills because there is too little other cover.

Then eventually a couple of players get so bored that they crest the hills and charge the snipers... and get mostly killed. Then the other team with its now superior numbers rolls forward and obliterates what's left.

It is a completely crap map.

I have been forced to play it twice as much as any other map. And every game on it goes longer than a standard game because of all the tedious trudging. It has singlehandledly stopped me from playing MWO as much as I otherwise would have.

Edited by Appogee, 09 May 2013 - 11:32 PM.

[Shatterpoint]

If I end up on this map I just quit now, sick of wasting my time on a sniper map without warning.

I have 1 long range mech I hate using, the rest are slow (relative to map size), short range and fun..since the devs can't balance the game at least give people a warning it's next or let us block this joke map from ever popping.

[Atheus]

It's too hard to percolate all the various things that can happen in Alpine to a single fun/not fun evaluation. It serves certain needs pretty well, but with other massive pitfalls.

I'll put it like this: Alpine is the map which suffers the most from base capture. The map is huge, but conflict is restricted to relatively few positions since people try to maintain (an exercise in futility) some proximity to their base (https://mwomercs.com...//img/heatmaps/ [separate game modes, Kyle!]). Regardless, when you see that "base is under attack" warning, chances are you've already lost, if you don't have a light mech that's not exploring the enemy base. At < 100 km/h, making the boring 2 minute hike back to the base is more than most people are willing to put up with. They would prefer to spend that time having fun fighting the front line.

[OneManWar]

I posted a variation of my answer here on another topic where someone suggested King of the Hill for Alpine.

"The problem with a king of the hill on a map this size is it completely negates the point of having a large map. Why have a huge map if the only place people are going to go is directly to the middle (which can be a problem already with assault). It makes 90% of the map 100% useless. Conquest is best on the larger maps because it makes you go to the sections you wouldn't go to if everyone were to just rush to the middle and duke it out.

So on these larger maps, its more of the game mode that's an issue. Anyone wanting team DM on these bigger maps are crazy, it would be awful and there would be almost no point to having a bigger map than 1000Mx1000M."

So much like KOTH, Assault on this map invalidates 3/4 of this map. Nearly every team meets in some variation of the middle, you only stray to the far ends to try and sneak by and cap. 90% of the games I've played on it lead to a standoff in the valley by the radio tower right in the middle. You rarely see a team loop around the center mountain on either side. 9% of the rest of the fights take place sort of on that mountain. So in assault, the big maps suffer because you have ZERO incentive to go anywhere else but the fasterst route to a fight unless you want to cap.

[silentD11]

Sel Finsert, on 09 May 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I'm sure it must be absolutely lovely standing in spawn for six minutes before you even see an enemy, and then waiting another minute for him to enter range.

Not what happens at all. You can actually put a scout down k line while you move up, just don't move too far and have him come back if the rush isn't coming.

It just takes you know, not rushing forward like mad men to create a firing line and TDM each other, tactics be damned I just want to point and click. I see people at the higher ELO levels defend it constantly. **** poor players always try to TDM it and thus get worked on it. But that's a sign of their lack of quality, not the maps.

[Keifomofutu]

silentD11, on 11 May 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

Not what happens at all. You can actually put a scout down k line while you move up, just don't move too far and have him come back if the rush isn't coming.

With the way class based matchmaking isn't working you never know if your team is even going to get a light. I swear assault mode is a perfect storm of giant maps, bad matchmaking, and general failure.

[silentD11]

Keifomofutu, on 11 May 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

With the way class based matchmaking isn't working you never know if your team is even going to get a light. I swear assault mode is a perfect storm of giant maps, bad matchmaking, and general failure.

Which is why I'm in favor of having at TDM mode for all the people that only want to run heavies and assaults and bang them together.

[Corvus Antaka]

the only issue is that the western team is at a significant disadvantage to the eastern team and this needs adjusting.