78 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

The mistake some use XL engines for is to save tonnage, so they can load up on stronger weapons... like something crazy on a Catapult. What tends to happen is that it draws some people to shoot off the torso of certain mechs when certain builds favor shooting a mech's side torsos to reduce firepower. I don't think it's that detrimental to a Highlander, but however, most Highlander builds are actually weak on leg armor... which may be something to think about.

[Escef]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

The mistake some use XL engines for is to save tonnage, so they can load up on stronger weapons... like something crazy on a Catapult. What tends to happen is that it draws some people to shoot off the torso of certain mechs when certain builds favor shooting a mech's side torsos to reduce firepower. I don't think it's that detrimental to a Highlander, but however, most Highlander builds are actually weak on leg armor... which may be something to think about.

I know I've killed several 'phracts by aiming for the right torso. If they have an XL, they're dead; if not, they probably just lost their 2 biggest guns.

As for HGNs being weak on leg armor, it is still easier to take a side torso. And an HGN shy a side has either lost its main gun(s) and energy based back-up weapons (losing the right) or lost its missiles (for the left). (Though the HM is alittle different on this.)

[Rackminster]

Honestly, depends on the Mech.

My Catapults are almost never killed because they use XL's - hence XL's go in the Catapult.

However, everyone rips the AC20 slot out of my Atlas before my CT, almost without fail - hence STD's always go in the Atlas.

Currently the Centurion's are experiencing a bit of glory as "Zombies" and it's no shock that the Yen-Lo does well with a STD engine. People have to really work to pick them apart, limb by limb... and as long as you've got a gun in your CT - you're still fighting.

[Zordicron]

Alistair Winter, on 05 May 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Yeah, that's right.

After six months of experimenting and spending tens of millions of C-bills on XL engines, I have come to the realisation that STD engines are better anyway. My Awesome, my Cataphracts, my Catapults, my Centurions, even two of my Ravens, they all have STD engines now.

I used to think that XL engines were better because the speed is so important in this game. But now I've realised that it's better to have a few less guns and a lot extra survivability. At least for my playing style.

I just dusted off my old Yen Lo Wang, which I haven't used for ages. Swapped the XL engine for a STD engine, replaced the ER Laser with a couple of medium lasers and voilá!

I know these stats aren't very impressive for you guys, but for me this pretty good when I'm just PUGing. It's a step in the right direction, anyway

For a while my Win-Loss ratio and KDR was stagnating and even dropping a bit, but after I've switched to STD engines, it's been climbing fast.

Thank you, STD engine.

Meh, you list off some of the mechs that benefit most from the ability to lose a side torso, or the other way around, die horrible deaths because a side torso is too easy to lose.

Phracts: torso is mega size. I have my 2x with a huge XL, because it is a mid/long range mech and I keep it that way with the extra speed. The rest standard all day so i dont get popped by two alphas.

Centurian: zombie cents? I mean, it's one of their quirks. Cant zombie with XL

Awesomes: Barn door. they need the survivability of a standard. Maybe the 75kph 9m is an exception.

Cant speak to lights, dont have any yet. Catapults i think it depends on the loadout. Some have room for a big standard, some dont, some need high speed some dont.

[Vite Ramen]

I use a standard engine for all my brawlers. Hunch, phract, highlander, atlas. I also use one on my stalker since it gets sidecored so often.

For lights, XL.

For faster mechs, XL. Treb, cicada, Centurion-D (97kph+speed tweak), dragon.

I also use XL for the Jager, because I find it's just so underpowered compared to the phract without it, and multiple ballistics are too heavy.

I put it on the cat too because I don't really get sidecored.

[Alistair Winter]

Eldagore, on 05 May 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Meh, you list off some of the mechs that benefit most from the ability to lose a side torso, or the other way around, die horrible deaths because a side torso is too easy to lose.

I just listed the ones I use more frequently. But for the sake of discussion, let's go through the whole list.

Jenner, Commando, Spider, Raven: Work very well with XL engines
Raven 2X, Raven 4X, Spider 5V: Work very well with STD engines. The Ravens can only have fairly small engines anyway, and the Spider 5V doesn't have room for many weapons anyway.

Cicada: I've used both XL and STD engines for my Cicadas, before I sold them. I'd probably go for an XL engine in most cases.
Hunchback: Tough as nails and a natural brawler. STD engines are very useful.
Centurion: Tough as nails and a natural brawler. STD engines are very useful.
Trebuchet: As big as a heavy mech, with very little armor. STD engines are very useful, though not mandatory for LRM boating or poptarting.

Dragon: I have no experience with this, but Dragons tend to be rather light on weaponry anyway. I'm leaning towards STD engines, although I'll have to keep an eye open in future matches and see if enemy dragons are losing side torsos or always losing CT.
Catapult: The speed and range of the torso twist makes it easy to block incoming shots with side torso. Unfortunately, some of the weapons (LRM20, Gauss, AC20) are just too heavy for STD engine while maintaining speed. As mentioned above, the Catapult K2 with 4 LLs feels great with STD 300 engine, so far.
Cataphract: Definitely great with STD engine.
Jagermech: Depends on the build, but most ballistic builds have such heavy guns that XL engines are mandatory.

Awesome: STD engine is almost mandatory, except for 9M or Pretty Baby, which have the speed to stay alive with an XL engine.
Stalker: Always get their sides blown off and slow as hell anyway. I'd go for STD engine.
Atlas: Always get their sides blown off and slow as hell anyway. I'd go for STD engine.
Highlander: I always use STD engine on mine, and I almost always target side torsos on other Highlanders, unless they have a balanced loadout, like Bishop Steiner's Highlanders above (not counting his 733P).

In other words, I prefer STD engines on about 25% light mechs, 75% medium mechs, 75% heavy mechs and 100% assault mechs.

[c0mbatphil]

I have ONE xl engine... It's in my Jager. Everything else is standards. I have 8 mechs that have a 300std....

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 05 May 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

I just listed the ones I use more frequently. But for the sake of discussion, let's go through the whole list.

Jenner, Commando, Spider, Raven: Work very well with XL engines
Raven 2X, Raven 4X, Spider 5V: Work very well with STD engines. The Ravens can only have fairly small engines anyway, and the Spider 5V doesn't have room for many weapons anyway.

Cicada: I've used both XL and STD engines for my Cicadas, before I sold them. I'd probably go for an XL engine in most cases.
Hunchback: Tough as nails and a natural brawler. STD engines are very useful.
Centurion: Tough as nails and a natural brawler. STD engines are very useful.
Trebuchet: As big as a heavy mech, with very little armor. STD engines are very useful, though not mandatory for LRM boating or poptarting.

Dragon: I have no experience with this, but Dragons tend to be rather light on weaponry anyway. I'm leaning towards STD engines, although I'll have to keep an eye open in future matches and see if enemy dragons are losing side torsos or always losing CT.
Catapult: The speed and range of the torso twist makes it easy to block incoming shots with side torso. Unfortunately, some of the weapons (LRM20, Gauss, AC20) are just too heavy for STD engine while maintaining speed. As mentioned above, the Catapult K2 with 4 LLs feels great with STD 300 engine, so far.
Cataphract: Definitely great with STD engine.
Jagermech: Depends on the build, but most ballistic builds have such heavy guns that XL engines are mandatory.

Awesome: STD engine is almost mandatory, except for 9M or Pretty Baby, which have the speed to stay alive with an XL engine.
Stalker: Always get their sides blown off and slow as hell anyway. I'd go for STD engine.
Atlas: Always get their sides blown off and slow as hell anyway. I'd go for STD engine.
Highlander: I always use STD engine on mine, and I almost always target side torsos on other Highlanders, unless they have a balanced loadout, like Bishop Steiner's Highlanders above (not counting his 733P).

In other words, I prefer STD engines on about 25% light mechs, 75% medium mechs, 75% heavy mechs and 100% assault mechs.

not....sure ... how my 733P is less balanced than the others, but.... OK. LOL. Still, being able to move fast helps.

[Zordicron]

Alistair Winter, on 05 May 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

I just listed the ones I use more frequently. But for the sake of discussion, let's go through the whole list.

Jenner, Commando, Spider, Raven: Work very well with XL engines
Raven 2X, Raven 4X, Spider 5V: Work very well with STD engines. The Ravens can only have fairly small engines anyway, and the Spider 5V doesn't have room for many weapons anyway.

Cicada: I've used both XL and STD engines for my Cicadas, before I sold them. I'd probably go for an XL engine in most cases.
Hunchback: Tough as nails and a natural brawler. STD engines are very useful.
Centurion: Tough as nails and a natural brawler. STD engines are very useful.
Trebuchet: As big as a heavy mech, with very little armor. STD engines are very useful, though not mandatory for LRM boating or poptarting.

Dragon: I have no experience with this, but Dragons tend to be rather light on weaponry anyway. I'm leaning towards STD engines, although I'll have to keep an eye open in future matches and see if enemy dragons are losing side torsos or always losing CT.
Catapult: The speed and range of the torso twist makes it easy to block incoming shots with side torso. Unfortunately, some of the weapons (LRM20, Gauss, AC20) are just too heavy for STD engine while maintaining speed. As mentioned above, the Catapult K2 with 4 LLs feels great with STD 300 engine, so far.
Cataphract: Definitely great with STD engine.
Jagermech: Depends on the build, but most ballistic builds have such heavy guns that XL engines are mandatory.

Awesome: STD engine is almost mandatory, except for 9M or Pretty Baby, which have the speed to stay alive with an XL engine.
Stalker: Always get their sides blown off and slow as hell anyway. I'd go for STD engine.
Atlas: Always get their sides blown off and slow as hell anyway. I'd go for STD engine.
Highlander: I always use STD engine on mine, and I almost always target side torsos on other Highlanders, unless they have a balanced loadout, like Bishop Steiner's Highlanders above (not counting his 733P).

In other words, I prefer STD engines on about 25% light mechs, 75% medium mechs, 75% heavy mechs and 100% assault mechs.

It's a little off to lump all weights together. Assault mechs in general use standard engines because they have the tonnage to, at least in this point in the timeline. been a while since i reviewed sarna for it, but later years XL and XXL and ultralight and blah blah started showing up everywhere. but this is supposed to be 3050.

I said before I cant comment on lights, but I see a lot of XL in game. Depends I think on how much GUN you want to try to mount.

As for med's, I think trebs do fine with XL, but the trick is if you are going to do it, go big. Others have said this, but if you want to use an XL just to save tons for weapons(on meds and up) you are doing it wrong. you go XL to get a big upgrade on engine size for the same weight(sometimes lighter even) and then use the same weapons loadout. Trebs will gain enough speed to cross that magic threshold of "now they miss a lot" same with cicadas(also do fine with XL). hunchbacks, well, they dont. Even with a 260 and speed tweek, people will mostly reliably nail you at 90kph. You see more misses, but you dont see a really significant drop off till 100+kph IMO. Cents are like this too, but you can run a big XL in the d version so that particular varient is an exception, like the 9m awesome. So in the end I feel the meds have a 50/50 for Xl's

heavy, well, dragons do a lot better with honkin XL and then a bunch of firepower, the most common is large lasers. Dragons need speed anyway. it is a chassis quirk, they maneuver well, especially at climbing hills etc. When you have enough speed, the dmg spreads out a lot on a dragon. When you are to slow, you will know becausse you will get whipped fast, headshots or CT cored. To get enough speed on a dragon, you need at least a 280 and speed tweak. using a standard engine, unless you make a brawler build, you will have chump firepower. thats where the XL comes in. 280 XL opens up the room to put a gauss on, or put like 3 large lasers and a bunch of HS on. XL300 is better, but you will lose a weapon probably.
Catapults IMO is so dependent on the variant and loadout it is hard to say.
Phracts need a standard, because they maneuver like an assault mech lol. I have one kitted out 2x i stuck this giant 325XL in, but I made it specifically around the added speed so it works out. most loadouts fail with an Xl on a phract. Jagers I think are a lot like pults,. so in the end, you have a dragon that thrives on XL, a phract that doesnt, and 2 mechs that go eigther way. so i would call it 50/50 again.

What I would say though about XL engines, is they cost too much. i can see pricey dbl heatsinks. But the engines really depend on the chassis and loadout a lot of times. I would like to see the XL reduced in price, or maybe a little of the price cut off and blended into the std. prices or something. The tonnage benefit of an XL is probably why they cost so much, but a lot of times the tradeoff in survivability makes the price seem excessive.

[Ralgas]

My 732 has always rocked a 300xl and no jj's.

Only recently(after 120+ matches) have i started running into side torso probs. Filling the rest of the torso slots full of ppc/heatsinks to soak dmg helpss

[sC4r]

this goes from mech to mech...
you cant say xl > standard or vice versa

for hmmm stalker for example having xl engine is pretty much suicide as it tends to lose one torso fairly quickly in fights
for some like atlas,catapracht its kind of downgrade as both are supposed to be quite hard to take out mechs but if you load them with heavy weapons for long range combat and play accordingly it may prove useful
and there are mechs for which xl is straight up upgrade like... every light mech, dragon, cat

simply there are mechs that are better with one engine than with the other and also it aplies how you play with that mech too

[MeiSooHaityu]

I am someone who uses both depending on the mech and what I am trying to achieve.

I do occasionally use an XL in a Catapult because the CT (and especially the head) tends to take the hits much more often then the side torso. IMO, the side torso hitbox is fairly small on the Catapult, so it seems more worth it. Same might be true for the Dragon as well.

I wouldn't use an XL on a Hunchback. The Hunchback side torso (especially the large side with all the firepower) tends to always go first. For survivability, it is normally worth using a standard engine in that case. On a side note though, normally when a Hunch looses that side torso, he is down to 2 energy points. If you feel that is too restrictive to do damage to your oponents, then you might want to consider an XL.

I like XL in lights just because I am legged almost all the time anyway

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 06 May 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

Alistair Winter, on 05 May 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Thank you, STD engine.

I will not touch XL engines. The only use I can see for them is for support mechs which are unlikely to get hit.

It triples our chances of dying if your armor is breached and turns you into a big walking target. I love it when other people use them. It means I only need to destroy any torso to kill them. So my target area is suddenly 3 times as large.

[SgtMagor]

I wish they had different types of armor you can mix and match. so, if you use a XL engine, you should be able to add hardened armor, reflective etc. to the side torsos.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I think it really depends on what you are doing.

For instance, before LRMageddon, I was running a Centurion with an XL275, a pair of LRM15's w/ Art, and 2 MLas.

It was perfect, because I am going 97k with Speed Tweak, and have the ability to determine engagement.

Now for my UAC/5, pair of Streaks and 2 MLas Centurion, it's STD275 all the way.

I'm probably going to go a similar route for my Highlanders. My 733C is using an STD, but when I get my 733P and go LRM's I'll put an XL in it.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 06 May 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Its a preference choice.

One is not better than the other, the determining factor is how the pilot uses it.

I think the mech chassis is important as well. For instance, all of my Catapults, Dragons, and lights always have XL engines. All of my Atlases, Stalkers, and Hunchbacks use standard engines.

[Padic]

I find the Std vs XL conversation to be very interesting.

Certainly, when you sit down to design a new load out, the absolute first decision you need to make is whether you intend to be piloting a "tank" (a rugged, dependable machine for soldier-types) or a "jet" (a high performing machine for daredevil-types).

It is important to remember that, until you blow up, a mech with an XL engine will be higher performing than an analogous build with a Std engine. The XL does make you more vulnerable, but it only matters in matches where you die. Additionally, the more you spread your incoming damage out, the less it matters - it only barely matters if you survive a LT shot if you've already lost both arms and used up all the armor across your torso locations.

Even the famed zombie Centurion only has a couple of Medium Lasers left at that point, and, you need to decide if having those two lasers for the duration of time between when you lose your missiles and when you are destroyed is really worth not having a gun in your right arm at all.

So, from where I sit, the choice between XL and Standard is a very personal one. They both have their uses. It's going to come down to a mix of factors. The intended role of the mech, the chassis' hitboxes, the variant's hardpoint distribution and engine limits, and the temperament and talents of the pilot.

[Homeless Bill]

Whenever I think mounting an STD is worth it, I get a torso blown off, fruitlessly try to put out some damage with my one or two remaining weapons, and then get picked apart by the vultures.

By the time one torso is gone, I might as well be dead anyways. It's useful for tanking, but that's something I never do; I'm all about quick, devastating strikes into enemy lines. The speed, heat efficiency, and firepower of an XL are almost always worth it.

It also probably helps that I'm pretty amazing at the torso-twist game.

[Sephlock]

If it helps with steptarting™, the greater speed from a bigger XL engine is well worth it. It helps if your mechs hardpoints are optimally positioned for it, though.

[Alistair Winter]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 May 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

not....sure ... how my 733P is less balanced than the others, but.... OK. LOL. Still, being able to move fast helps.

Well, your other two builds have weapons on both sides, that's what I mean by balanced. If I'm fighting you and don't know what engine you have, I'm not going to focus on your right torso, because you might have a STD engine. By the time I destroy your right torso, I'll probably be heavily damaged myself. And that's when I don't want 3 x SRM6 launched directly at my face. So against balanced builds with weapons on both sides, I'll go for the CT.

Against your 733P, there's no point in aiming at your CT, because your RT has less armor and it doesn't really matter if you have an STD or XL engine. If you lose your ER PPCs on that thing, you have nothing. I don't have to worry about what engine you have.

sC4r, on 06 May 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

this goes from mech to mech...
you cant say xl > standard or vice versa

Well, I'm going to let you in on a little secret: I am aware that some builds are better with the XL. However, starting a thread called "Choosing the engine depends on several factors" is hardly a controversial statement that stimulates further discussion.

I started the thread because I've personally been having a lot of success with [near] max size STD engines, which I figure is kind of unusual. For a long time, I only used STD engines for slow brawlers. I figure my present preference is rather unusual, but valid, so I made a thread to share my opinion.

Padic, on 06 May 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

I find the Std vs XL conversation to be very interesting.
Certainly, when you sit down to design a new load out, the absolute first decision you need to make is whether you intend to be piloting a "tank" (a rugged, dependable machine for soldier-types) or a "jet" (a high performing machine for daredevil-types).

Absolutely. And what I've discovered, which I perhaps should have explained more clearly in the OP, is that it isn't a given that the "tank" build needs to use a smaller STD engine, while a "jet" build is a huge XL engine.

For example, consider my Catapult K2 with STD300 and 4 Large Lasers, or my Cataphract 1X with STD335 and 5 medium lasers + 1 gauss rifle. Neither of these are "tanks". They don't have the high burst damage or the high DPS to go toe to toe with other heavies or assaults. I have to play them with a lot of finesse, because they have less firepower than most other heavy mechs, and certainly less than assault mechs. They are very different than, say, my Cataphract 2X (which I've now sold) with STD240, AC20, SRMs... you know, the standard brawler kit.

You might even say that there are three "classes" of mechs.
Tank: Good durability, good firepower, less speed.
Killer: Good firepower, good speed, less durability.
Hunter: Good speed, good durability, less firepower.

The Hunter role is the one I've only recently discovered. Of course, it's not really a choice of three strict classes, there are too many different variables for that.

Padic, on 06 May 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Even the famed zombie Centurion only has a couple of Medium Lasers left at that point, and, you need to decide if having those two lasers for the duration of time between when you lose your missiles and when you are destroyed is really worth not having a gun in your right arm at all.

As I see it, this is the wrong attitude for a Centurion pilot. The value of the STD engine on a Centurion is not zombie mode, running around with no arms and squeezing out an extra 50 damage before you're chopped to bits. The value is in the ability to use half your body as a shield. Whether you're sacrificing your left side to protect an AC10 or sacrificing your right side to protect 3 x SRM6s, you'll get more out of torso twisting anyway.

Homeless Bill, on 06 May 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Whenever I think mounting an STD is worth it, I get a torso blown off, fruitlessly try to put out some damage with my one or two remaining weapons, and then get picked apart by the vultures.
It also probably helps that I'm pretty amazing at the torso-twist game.

Well, if you're amazing at the torso-twist game, you should have your most or all of important weapons left after they blow your side torso off! In the case of my Yen Lo Wang, destroying my LA and LT means a 0% reduction of firepower. Or in the case of Bishop Steiner's Highlander with STD engine and 3 ER PPCs, if he loses his LA and LT, he's only lost some heat sinks.

Another factor is that the so-called "meta" trend right now is that most people are relying on high burst damage, whether by AC20s, PPCs, Gauss rifles or whatever else. High burst damage means that it only takes two or three alphas to destroy a healthy component. The trouble with XL engines, for me, is that I have to worry so much about PPC stalkers and AC40 Jagers. If they take a side torso, which takes them about 3 seconds if I'm not slick enough, it's all over.

Sephlock, on 06 May 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

If it helps with steptarting™, the greater speed from a bigger XL engine is well worth it. It helps if your mechs hardpoints are optimally positioned for it, though.

What's steptarting? I can't keep up with the MW:O lingo, new terms are added every day