90 replies to this topic

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

Shadowsword8, on 05 May 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Better solution: simply prevent large weapons from firing if you don't have your feet on the ground.

If they added in physics, they could make it so that firing a full broadside of heavy ballistics would push you back and cause you to stumble over backwards and fall over when you land.

[Wispsy]

You do realise that there is only 2 things they could really do that would stop jump sniping being better then normal sniping right? Remove jumpjets or have the reticle shake a large amount randomly the entire time you are off the ground so firing is completely pointless...Jumpjets are really fun please do not take them away

I mean the real problem people seem to have with "snipewarrior" is that others can aim with their weapons and hit with them at max range, even if you remove jumpjets people will still be able to pop up tiny amounts on a large variety of mechs(stalker, jagermech, cataphract, dragon, even cicadas and hunchbacks) and fire with the exact same risk of return fire(or less, I mean highlanders need to srsly expose themselves to fire and they are so slow you should be well aware where they are going to pop up...). The only way you could get around this is by changing all the maps to basically be nothing but cover from base to base. Peoples aim will keep on improving all the time, the only way to stop this happening is to have weapons fire in slightly random directions so whether you hit at long range or not has nothing to do with skill and is completely luck based. Even if they nerfed ppc heat massively so nobody ever touched them again people would just move on to other long range high alpha builds as they are the most efficient way to kill a target (obviously). I do not know about you but making all long range weapons purely luck dependent does not sound like a very fun fps to me :/ They might as well have not put in HSR. Gogo SSRMWarrior Online? Back in closed beta before lagshield got crazy there were always complaints about gausscats, which were the most efficient sniper at the time, sniping complaints died down quite a bit whilst lagshield was in full swing and nobody could hit where they aimed but lets be honest, it sucked...that is why they put in HSR and why everybody was saying it would fix the game....now that they have it you wish that people cannot hit where they aim because it is unfair...

I do not get it :/ If you are not a sniper then you probably have a higher alpha, outposition them and tear them up do not make hitting random again just because people can aim better then you :/

Edited by Wispsy, 10 May 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[-Muta-]

I agree with adding a bit of shaking when you jump.

[Chaotic One]

The feeling I am getting from this debate is that "No simple solution is going to present itself". Sadly I am the last of my group of gaming friends still playing this game. The sniperfest and boating has driven every single one of them away! If you want to die in just a few seconds after entering combat go play battlefield or something similar. In this game I am suppose to be in a mech designed for battle, to be able to take more then a few hits before I go down!

For all you learn to play jackasses, it is hard to flank and catch these snipers off guard when you are usually the ONLY brawler in the group. Plus you still go down fast with a few 6 ppc stalkers turn and lay into you. I hate to say this but this game just sucks bad right now if you want to play a brawler...... If this does not change very soon I will be joining all my friends and leaving what could have been a great game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Whispy I read one that I liked. When Jumping Weapons can only fire in Chain mode. or just one weapon.

[Chaotic One]

Quote

I do not get it :/ If you are not a sniper then you probably have a higher alpha, outposition them and tear them up do not make hitting random again just because people can aim better then you :/

Wow this statement hows just have clueless you really are!

[Lysol]

Destructible terrain would fix some of the poptart issues. Poptart hiding behind buildings jump sniping you to death? Flatten his buildings he is using for cover!

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Wispsy, on 10 May 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

You do realise that there is only 2 things they could really do that would stop jump sniping being better then normal sniping right? Remove jumpjets or have the reticle shake a large amount randomly the entire time you are off the ground so firing is completely pointless...Jumpjets are really fun please do not take them away

I mean the real problem people seem to have with "snipewarrior" is that others can aim with their weapons and hit with them at max range, even if you remove jumpjets people will still be able to pop up tiny amounts on a large variety of mechs(stalker, jagermech, cataphract, dragon, even cicadas and hunchbacks) and fire with the exact same risk of return fire(or less, I mean highlanders need to srsly expose themselves to fire and they are so slow you should be well aware where they are going to pop up...). The only way you could get around this is by changing all the maps to basically be nothing but cover from base to base. Peoples aim will keep on improving all the time, the only way to stop this happening is to have weapons fire in slightly random directions so whether you hit at long range or not has nothing to do with skill and is completely luck based. Even if they nerfed ppc heat massively so nobody ever touched them again people would just move on to other long range high alpha builds as they are the most efficient way to kill a target (obviously). I do not know about you but making all long range weapons purely luck dependent does not sound like a very fun fps to me :/ They might as well have not put in HSR. Gogo SSRMWarrior Online? Back in closed beta before lagshield got crazy there were always complaints about gausscats, which were the most efficient sniper at the time, sniping complaints died down quite a bit whilst lagshield was in full swing and nobody could hit where they aimed but lets be honest, it sucked...that is why they put in HSR and why everybody was saying it would fix the game....now that they have it you wish that people cannot hit where they aim because it is unfair...

I do not get it :/ If you are not a sniper then you probably have a higher alpha, outposition them and tear them up do not make hitting random again just because people can aim better then you :/

Nail head, squarely hit. People want the game to be short range dominated because it disguises terrible aim.

Chaotic One, on 10 May 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Wow this statement hows just have clueless you really are!

Except he's actually a very good player, with a good amount of team play experience at a good standard, so he likely has far more clue than yourself.

[MustrumRidcully]

DV McKenna, on 10 May 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Nail head, squarely hit. People want the game to be short range dominated because it disguises terrible aim.




Except he's actually a very good player, with a good amount of team play experience at a good standard, so he likely has far more clue than yourself.

Could be. Could also be is just more fun to them, because you can actually see your enemy and his expensive paint job, it's more chaotic, and you maneuver more, and you get to really use features like torso twist and arm twist to its full extent - and more weapons work at this range then at long range.

[Soy]

Wispsy, on 10 May 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

outposition them

Not disagreeing, just saying... that's a big caveat sometimes. ^^

[Chaotic One]

DV McKenna, on 10 May 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Nail head, squarely hit. People want the game to be short range dominated because it disguises terrible aim.




Except he's actually a very good player, with a good amount of team play experience at a good standard, so he likely has far more clue than yourself.

He may know more then me. But even you have to admit that last statement was not correct.

[Wispsy]

Chaotic One, on 10 May 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Wow this statement hows just have clueless you really are!

Please tell me why you outfit your close range brawlers with less firepower then a 1000m sniper who invested large amounts of tonnage into the ability to jump small distances? In that kind of scenario you would lose in a brawl anyway even if they did not hit you at all on the way in...

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 May 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Whispy I read one that I liked. When Jumping Weapons can only fire in Chain mode. or just one weapon.

Well you would kill jumping lights (even more then SSRMs already do) and people would still be able to shoot you from all the way across the map and core you out before you can even see them in thermal. Hell plenty of people actually use chainfire anyway as they jumpsnipe and still hit the same place (mostly depending on their aim and their opponents ability to dodge/block)

[Saltychipmunk]

actually, sniping was always going to be the end all be all strategy.

the current relationship of brawlers snipers and lrm boats is pretty much exactly like the relationship between three dudes , one armed with a machete (brawler) one armed with a pistol (ppc boat) and one armed with a really nice compound bow(lrms boat)

I mean sure that machete will hurt when that guy runs up to you.
and that bow is liable to shoot an arrow through the heart at 100 meters

but that pistol , has 15 bullets in it , and even one or two of those bullets is enough to subdue the other dudes. you can accurately fire said bullets at ranges similar to the bow but you dont have **** around with all the slow manual reloading and firing.

this is why wars are fought with guns and not swords and bows.

and this is why this game is fought with ppcs with brawlers and lrm boats relegated to niche rolls.





(again you don't see people running with knives in real life fire fights)

It does not matter if that brawler does slightly more or even way more damage,

because that sniper does ENOUGH damage and has that tactical advantage of range.


there needs to be a range in which the sniper is completely ineffective. right now there isn't, the sniper is reasonably competent at all ranges due to being able to stay in groups easily.

there needs to be a range in which ONLY brawlers are definitively good, and right now there isnt one.

the brawler is not the king of close ranged, just like the lrm boat is not the king of long range combat.

and as a result the sniper ( which is only slightly inferior in both catagories) is a tactically superior choice.


For this game to really be balanced the devs are going to have to disregard logic
because there is no way logically to make a brawler mech better than a sniper mech, brawlers are by design an inferior strategy .

Edited by Saltychipmunk, 10 May 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

I have no problems with a 3PPC mech laying the hurt down.

What I do have problems with is that mech laying the hurt down 6-12 times before being heatcapped.

We need mechs that are more focused on heat efficiency, instead of "all big guns, all go boom, what? i overheat? all enemy is dead and shutdown my heat dont hurt me!"

[Saltychipmunk]

6 ppcs should over heat a mech with one alpha and possibly do internal damage.


but if we lower the heat cap and raise the heat dissipation, this could also have negative side effects

the big one being that ballistic weapons would be even less viable. ( they would need to make ammo carry more per ton )
because even a 50% heat dissipation bonus would make alot of energy heavy builds heat neutral.


imagine that not as op but still dangerous 4 ppc 24 double heat sink build with that 50% heat dissipation increase



i mean how low do we need to make the max heat cap go? Ive heard numbers as low as 30

Edited by Saltychipmunk, 10 May 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[Accursed Richards]

Wispsy, on 10 May 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

I mean the real problem people seem to have with "snipewarrior" is that others can aim with their weapons and hit with them at max range,

That's not really the problem. The problems are more:

--Snipers can reliably lay massive damage that very consistently hits the CT on heavies, assaults, and most mediums. Also, they only need to be facing the target / exposing their own CT for a few seconds, whereas a laser / AC build needs to keep facing their target.

--There are no penalties for overheating before 101% heat, and even then, nothing beyond shutdown for a few seconds. Unless someone's actively shooting at you while you overheat (a situation far more likely for brawlers), overheat is a slight inconvenience.

--The sniper loses very little firepower at short range, assuming they're not using standard PPC's.

Wispsy, on 10 May 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Peoples aim will keep on improving all the time, the only way to stop this happening is to have weapons fire in slightly random directions so whether you hit at long range or not has nothing to do with skill and is completely luck based.

There is a medium, where firing six massive weapons, especially at long range or when flying a 95-ton lump of blocky metal through the air with raw jet thrust, at once is not pinpoint precise but also not random.

Edited by Accursed Richards, 10 May 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

What ppl should be raging about is the 4-6 AC2 Jagers running on macros. I keep hearing PPC this and PPC that, but having those AC2s going at you like machine guns with the click of a single button, with better range than the ERPPC and equal speed, can't see a damn thing when they are going, can't even hold aim on a target. That is what ppl should be raging about, 8-12 damage every .5 seconds...that's a DPS of 16-24!

[chewie]

Lupus Aurelius, on 10 May 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

What ppl should be raging about is the 4-6 AC2 Jagers running on macros. I keep hearing PPC this and PPC that, but having those AC2s going at you like machine guns with the click of a single button, with better range than the ERPPC and equal speed, can't see a damn thing when they are going, can't even hold aim on a target. That is what ppl should be raging about, 8-12 damage every .5 seconds...that's a DPS of 16-24!

ah but not everyone has a mouse they can set a macro on to enable this, or the dexterity (eg 4 hands) to mash multiple buttons while piloting/aiming to do it manually.

anyone can mount and fire a boatload of PPC's, not everyone can macro ac2's.

You see more poptarts and ppc warriors than you do ac2 macromechs.

[Wispsy]

Accursed Richards, on 10 May 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

That's not really the problem. The problems are more:

--Snipers can reliably lay massive damage that very consistently hits the CT on heavies, assaults, and most mediums. Also, they only need to be facing the target / exposing their own CT for a few seconds, whereas a laser / AC build needs to keep facing their target.

--There are no penalties for overheating before 101% heat, and even then, nothing beyond shutdown for a few seconds. Unless someone's actively shooting at you while you overheat (a situation far more likely for brawlers), overheat is a slight inconvenience.

--The sniper loses very little firepower at short range, assuming they're not using standard PPC's.



There is a medium, where firing six massive weapons, especially at long range or when flying a 95-ton lump of blocky metal through the air with raw jet thrust, at once is not pinpoint precise but also not random.

No highlander can fit 6 weapons, a lot actually use only 3. Many fire 2ppcs then 1 gauss. You would basically have to make weapons not accurate unless under 400m? 300m? That kind of invalidates them having 1000-1500 max range...And anything else is going to hurt brawlers more as they use more weapons...sacrificing range. Lasers do not exactly have to be held that long, you can expose yourself for the exact same amount of time and if your aim is accurate. You do not have to hold the exact same position whole time to hit with a laser, you hit fire as soon as you see the target, just as you would with ppc/gauss, and by the time you actually drop out of sight the laser is mostly if not completely finished. The ACs have their own advantages that favour always facing the target often. UA5s main advantage is its rate of fire, so of course only showing yourself for a second or 2 is not ever going to work but you put out a lot of damage very quickly. The AC10 is actually pretty much like using a ppc, can pop up and down the exact same, the AC20 is closer range with the highest damage of any weapon for a hardpoint, also you can peek for less then a second to fire it before retreating just like the PPC and Gauss. The AC2 has more range I believe and a very fast rate of fire...so you hang back further and rock them like crazy as they try and shoot you from a distance that the snipers will do no real damage.

You are literally saying "I do not like that people can aim at me whilst making effective use of cover"....A perfectly valid tactic no matter how you look at it, you either randomize the angle of the projectile so that no matter how good your aim your hits are random or...remove all cover and start people at close range?


Edit: Well as snipers are overheating this gives you time to push on them without taking fire as you are sat behind a rock shut down...And then if you run a hot build and a brawler has pushed on you...well there is a reason that shutting down is an unforgivable death sentence at a decent level of play, brawler or sniper you do not let somebody get that easy cockpit 1hit (which even a few lights can do) you manage your heat at all times :/

Edited by Wispsy, 10 May 2013 - 02:29 PM.