44 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

Escef, on 07 May 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Source?

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=fRTbuBHkJKg#!

Go to 8:25, I think this video has it listed.

[Escef]

Zyllos, on 07 May 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=fRTbuBHkJKg#!

Go to 8:25, I think this video has it listed.

Nothing in there about respawns. I jumped to just shy of the 8 minute mark.

[Victor Morson]

zraven7, on 07 May 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Then, I came to a realization.

When the Clans first attacked the Inner Sphere, they, too, adhered to a strict code of ethics. They approached the Inner Sphere with this code of ethics intact, and fought according to this code.

Whiny newbies =/= ethical codes.

[Zyllos]

Escef, on 07 May 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Nothing in there about respawns. I jumped to just shy of the 8 minute mark.

I will have to wait until I can do a more indept search then.

But DropShip mode has been changed over to a Lobby system, which has always been a respawn mode of up to 4 different mechs.

[Zyllos]

Escef, on 07 May 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Nothing in there about respawns. I jumped to just shy of the 8 minute mark.

Ah, here it is:

Bryan Ekman, on 03 May 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Kell Commander: Is dropship mode going to be assault and capture with more lives or is it going to be something completely different?
A: DropShip mode is essentially the ability to respawn, which could be available to any current or future mode.

http://mwomercs.com/...evs-37-answers/

[NinetyProof]

Gallowglas, on 07 May 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

The problem isn't that it is cowardly. It's that it's not compelling gameplay. Simply having people sit back on defense isn't a great solution either, particularly if you have no fast mechs on your team. If the cap attempt never comes, all you've done is kept a mech out of combat.

It's all about decisions. Risks vs Reward. Do you advance all your slow heavy mechs to the front line? knowing that is they send somebody to cap you will be "Up 1 or more Mechs"? or do you have somebody hang back a bit to be able to cover?

Games are won or lost over these sorts of decisions.

You know, the entire team can sit back on base and *make* the enemy come to you ... try it, it's pretty easy ... just stay there and then say: We are playing defense, come get us.

The point is, that this game is all about tactical decisions ... some are good and give you an advantage, some are bad and give the advantage away.

Cap "tagging" is just another decision, and if it were not allowed, the game would be MOAR BORING because of it. Same Old Same Old ... every ... single ... time. Including having to hunt down that last mech on the other team that doesn't want to be "killed" so they run off and hide / power down.

[Hurthammer]

If you are not fighting the entire opposing force, they are likely flanking you or going for a cap. Heads up play and a "vision" of the entire battle field wins games. Tunnel vision gets you dead. And the obvious comms and teamwork do wonders for the above..

[Escef]

Zyllos, on 07 May 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Ah, here it is:



http://mwomercs.com/...evs-37-answers/

The video you linked they speak of it not being respawns, but here they say "essentially". And in the video he talked about pre-picking several mechs that you might use in the drop. This is not going to be respawns in the normal sense of it, which I can try. But I've no desire to see traditional respawns.

[Zyllos]

Escef, on 07 May 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

The video you linked they speak of it not being respawns, but here they say "essentially". And in the video he talked about pre-picking several mechs that you might use in the drop. This is not going to be respawns in the normal sense of it, which I can try. But I've no desire to see traditional respawns.

I am not sure what other way you can explain the "essentially respawns".

In all honesty, I was the same way. I absolutely wanted no respawn what-so ever. But, the more I play this game, the better that I think tactics can be developed and add more diversity when you add a respawn with a tonnage limit to the number of respawns you can have.

[Utilyan]

zraven7, on 07 May 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

In the past few weeks, I've seen an increasing amount of threads concerning whether or not it acceptable to win by capture. A lot of the people against the practice say that it detracts from the experience, or that the people in favor of capturing can't fight, or that they are cowards.

Then, I came to a realization.

When the Clans first attacked the Inner Sphere, they, too, adhered to a strict code of ethics. They approached the Inner Sphere with this code of ethics intact, and fought according to this code.

The inner sphere took advantage of this, and used against them many times.

Eventually, the Clans learned that this strict adherence to a code did NOT mean that your opponent was going to adhere to the same code, and they adapted.

I'm seeing this capture/don't capture argument in the same light all of a sudden.

So, if you are opposed to a quick capture, and believe that it is cowardly to do so, go ahead. Call Zellbrigen.

Doesn't mean I have to listen, or care.

I'm a Lone Wolf of the Inner Sphere. I play to win. Eventually, you'll learn.

That all depends on who shows up. There are 2 differ types of clans...

Theres Mechwarrior 2 clans who are completely BAD S MFRS, ALWAYS been objective-based oriented high strict military.
Where everyone starts a freebirth, dog, Fleshy-headed mutant, Wet-nose, scrub , toad. They never stopped to ask for a dual in simbas' circle of life.

And everyone knows SIBKO was a victory orgy.

IF mechwarrior 2 clans show up you can kiss terra's rear good-bye.

Mechwarrior 2 put Mechwarrior, and battle tech on the map. And since that moment when it was clan mechwarrior game that outshined not only BT but every game out.......... There have been table-top pencil nerds biased for the inner sphere.....DICTATING......Telling clanners what are clans, who they are.......and how to act like one.......namely NERD-approved MECH-KLINGONS with face tattoos......

So your a genetic clone, who zellbrigens a trial of lunch every afternoon in simba's circle of life.......and your a fk mech-klingon.

Cause inners sphere chumps couldn't put battle tech on the map, Mechwarrior 2 had to step in and kick everyones ***, do all the work for them. Then inner sphere acts like they better........ Because they beat the clans........ they did; they beat the fkn mech-klingon's clans butt they made up themselves all over the place.

But not mechwarrior 2 clans......oh no, mechwarrior 2 clans would hand mech's rear torso right back to you.

You better hope to GAWD its not mechwarrior 2 clans that show up.

[Stargoat]

Aloha, on 07 May 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Walking back to base from the center of Alpine or Tourmaline = no fun.

I dunno, it generates a lot of tension - will I get back in time to stop the cap? Once I reach it, will I be able to hold out long enough for my allies to back me up or otherwise snatch victory from the claws of defeat?

Unfortunately on Alpine, the answer is usually no, unless you're running a 100KPH+ 'mech, but I think that problem could be solved by slowing the capture rate on larger maps.

Personally, I would have preferred if, all those patches ago, bonuses were increased for capturing rather than decreased; it would force a shift in the metagame which would, in my opinion, generate more interesting scenarios than 'all fight in the middle and hope we don't get captured'.

[Stonefalcon]

So many things need to be done to fix the game.

1. Alpine Peaks need 12v12 period, 8v8 on such a huge map is pointless.
2. All weapons need their heat values returned to TT value. With state rewind in the whining has stopped when ppl would fire, see the enemy get hit, they shut down and whine cause the enemy took no damage. Now it's you hit, you damage, you miss, tough luck.
3. Jump Jets should shake cockpit based on the number of jets you are using. For example, 1 JJ should make minimal shake, 4 JJ's should make you shake like crazy, this will kill off poptarting and return JJ's to how they are supposed to be used, maneuvering.
4. Bring in Clan tech, there's quite a few of us who know which mechs will be released in the invasion and they weapons they bring will give a lot of inexperienced people a reality shock on the nature of Clan equipment.
5. BAP is finally taking it's role of ECM counter, does the current ECM system still need to be in effect, NO. Last I saw Angel ECM which is what we have isn't developed till 3059.
5. Galactic Warfare, invasion blocks by Clans, Mercenary units seeking to engage the clans head on to acquire that sweet tech early on to give them a tactical advantage.

PGI needs to tighten up and get on with the job.

[MrVop]

Capping is cool and all... It gives lights a job...

But maybe its not a good job for them? maybe capping in itself not the type of mode that an MechWar game ever needed?

Lets add "special intel" items that teams can go grab and run back to their base. we wont call em flags so that would be a fun mode...
OH WAIT, I DON'T WANT TO PLAY TF2. We already have a game called TF2 for that.

How, pray tell, does you standing on a square while my team slaughters yours and now its 8 vs 1 make you win? what we all ******* ejected? That kind of arcade ********* is not why people play MechWarior, and there is a game out there doing the arcade part better then MWO (I'll give you a hint "bird of pray awken")

That's why people complain about capping. Its not your superior tactics, it's that fact that it doesn't fit in and its not fun for the enemy team or (mother ******* gasp) YOU.

I play lots of lights... By that I mean I own almost every single one, and Lights purpose was never to "cap" they could sabotage buildings/control centers (kinda like capping? not really though lets be honest), spotting, hit and run operations.... You know... scouty ****. That's actually the kind of game play you want for your light mechs, Not run to enemy base, and if they come back run off to rejoin team, maybe try again later. That's not really tactics.... that's approaching brain-dead state I play TF2 in.
Don't get me wrong brawling in a light can be fun, challenging, and sometimes turns the tide of battle, but everyone seems to have ******' forgot that lights are not exactly meant to do damage, that is like a tertiary function for them.

All the people that complain about capping want, is more of a game to play, more meta, more meaning. MORE MECH WARRIOR. And there seems to be this community of lights that think they are super ******' tacticians because they can run wide of the battle (on some smaller maps this is actually a challenge) and stand on a square. Then the same lower intestine sphincters tell the people who use cover, terrain, and situational awareness to actually do combat (you know, the meat and ******* potatoes of the game? and currently the only thing to do besides cap) that their "bloat boats" are ruining the meta and start talking about civil war lines... Because... well i honestly don't know why, they should be with us hopping for a little more meta added. At least let me "uncap" (return the capped portions you took back to the bar) when I return, to chase off one light. Give me something... Make the game less brain dead then it is right now. And quit ******* claiming that runing a light to cap and standing there forces some sort of tactical decision. Most people ignore it because its not fun, and would benefit them less to win with low damage (less money) then losing with high damage (more money).... We both want the game to improve with complexity.

I really hope assault really was a temporary stand in till more battle techy **** is added. Because no matter what you do, the way it is right now will never be fun.

Lets stop saying that either side (cappers or bloat boaters) are playing the game the right way, And realize the underlying problem, assault mode is **** and is hopefully a place holder. Lets discuss that, not name call each other (yes I'm guilty of it too), lets find a way to make the mode fun by adding to it.

Lets talk about constructive stuff... "This stupid Bloat boats are ***, I'm super tactician muhahahah" vs. "***** *** lights running for cap, what a bunch of coward babies" is not helping anything, just makes us all look dumb.

[XSerjo]

Aloha, on 07 May 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

BUT I DO! I RTB to stop cappers ALL THE FREAKING TIME! And you know what? More often than not, they run away when I get there. That sounds like avoiding a fight to me. And if I don't make it back in time because the map is too big, they finish the cap. Again, that's another example of avoiding the fight.

That means you're facing "right" basecappers. They do work perfect - splitting your team, avoiding useless firefight.

Weight balance is broken, weight-class balance doesn't exist, why do you want to remove this feature - it gives chance fail-teams (7-0 scores) win the fight.. If they have skilled light.

[Straften]

zraven7, on 07 May 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

THEN STOP ME! PLEASE!
Seriously, set up some spotters, have a light patrol a bit, scout, use a defensive formation, etc, etc...

I'm not trying to avoid a fight. I like fighting just as much. I'm just going to try to win, whatever path makes the most sense.

When I cap, I get off the cap when it's a tick away to go fight. Winning with a cap, I use as an absolute last resort if the enemy team kills my team. But I'd much rather brawl them down.

[Onmyoudo]

While I personally don't hold a cap win against anyone, some of the arguments being made here don't stand up.

1) Return to base and stop me/send a light back: Flawed matchmaking in no way guarantees that this will be possible. At all. And if your team of poorly matched assaults and heavies is faced against 3 spiders and a commando then it isn't really possible to return quickly enough to stop them - and if you do, they just run and you've abandoned the rest of the map to their other lance. Good tactics. So, defend?

2) Defending your base is a flawed perspective in this gametype in a number of ways. Say you have one guy stay back and watch the base. 1 Light shows up, then runs away. The defender can't chase - he would be abandoning his post to any other mechs around. Let's say 2 lights or more show up. They kill the lone defender. Your team is a man down, and they still have control of your base.

Let's say you have 2 guys defend. The lights never engage, and instead go back to help the rest of your team against the 6 guys you have fighting against 8. The 6 guys get rolled due to being outnumbered. All 8 of the enemy show up at your base and finish off the last 2. Those 2 defenders can never leave the base in case they get flanked and lose the base anyway.

Another scenario then, you have 1 - 4 defenders sat in a square, watching the other half of their team get blown away. It's a tactical fallacy. And the worst part is, the guys who opt to stay back in the vain hope of delaying the enemy long enough for the rest of your team to rush their cap means nobody gets any reward. And if your team and their team are fighting out in the middle, the guy defending still gets no reward and may cause his team to lose by being a man down. If he duels a bit with a light he gets minimal reward. If the fight arrives at the base and the rest of his team is midfield... he dies first and still gets no reward, even if he delays long enough for his team to get back.

Long story short, defending literally benefits the defender the least. There is no incentive for defending, at all. Worst case scenario, neither teams have any fast movers and everybody sits on their bases, too afraid to leave in case the enemy flanks them and they are too slow to stop it. I've actually seen this happen. It's dull as ****. And that's the kind of environment you're trying to foster with your "I do cap and do what I want, screw the rest of you" attitude. That or all lights, all the time, and some people like pilotiing the other chassis.

3) Capping is cheap/cowardly/pointless: Capping is not cheap, nor cowardly. It is sort of pointless, but only due to the design of the game mode. Lights can and should cap when necessary. and ideally there should be a fast response mech or two on your side in order to stop them. There should be, if the matchmaker weren't still terrible and the PUGs were actually willing to do that. But it is, and sometimes they're not. This is basically the same as point 1) from the other side.


TL;DR Assault design is broken and matchmaker is broken. If you want to troll cap, go ahead. If you get troll capped, call it a free 25k and load up the next match. Stop being a bunch of dicks to each other.

[NextGame]

Sure, its more entertaining to win via fighting, however if the game allows capping as an alternative route to achieve a win, then don't be surprised and upset when people use it, especially during a gameplay balance cycle where it is very difficult to succeed in a smaller mech.

Suggest a better game mechanic rather than blame the players tbh.

Edited by NextGame, 08 May 2013 - 02:08 AM.

[zraven7]

Utilyan, on 07 May 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

That all depends on who shows up. There are 2 differ types of clans...

Theres Mechwarrior 2 clans who are completely BAD S MFRS, ALWAYS been objective-based oriented high strict military.
Where everyone starts a freebirth, dog, Fleshy-headed mutant, Wet-nose, scrub , toad. They never stopped to ask for a dual in simbas' circle of life.

And everyone knows SIBKO was a victory orgy.

IF mechwarrior 2 clans show up you can kiss terra's rear good-bye.

Mechwarrior 2 put Mechwarrior, and battle tech on the map. And since that moment when it was clan mechwarrior game that outshined not only BT but every game out.......... There have been table-top pencil nerds biased for the inner sphere.....DICTATING......Telling clanners what are clans, who they are.......and how to act like one.......namely NERD-approved MECH-KLINGONS with face tattoos......

So your a genetic clone, who zellbrigens a trial of lunch every afternoon in simba's circle of life.......and your a fk mech-klingon.

Cause inners sphere chumps couldn't put battle tech on the map, Mechwarrior 2 had to step in and kick everyones ***, do all the work for them. Then inner sphere acts like they better........ Because they beat the clans........ they did; they beat the fkn mech-klingon's clans butt they made up themselves all over the place.

But not mechwarrior 2 clans......oh no, mechwarrior 2 clans would hand mech's rear torso right back to you.

You better hope to GAWD its not mechwarrior 2 clans that show up.

Dude, I hope that, when clan warfare starts, all Clanners are as enthusiastic as you are. It could make the game immensely entertaining.

Can;t wait to see you in the field, Pilot. :-)

[Tatula]

XSerjo, on 07 May 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

That means you're facing "right" basecappers. They do work perfect - splitting your team, avoiding useless firefight.

Weight balance is broken, weight-class balance doesn't exist, why do you want to remove this feature - it gives chance fail-teams (7-0 scores) win the fight.. If they have skilled light.

Where, in all my posts, did I say I want to remove capping? I have endorsed the addition of new modes, such as King of the Hill or TDM, but I have not asked for removing capping in Assault. I have suggested that people who likes to cap go play Conquest and let Assault be more assault and less capping, but that pretty much fell to deaf ears.

My quote that you responded to, was a direct respond to ZRAVEN7's quote about returning to base to stop a cap and that he's not running from a fight. Running away when I return to defend my base is DEFINITELY running away from a fight. So, if ZRAVEN7 stay and fight when I RTB, he's playing it "wrong"?

Yes, We all know MM is kinda broken. There's no guarantee a PUG team will have the right mix of mechs to play against cappers but for the Assault game mode, it'd be nice if we save capping as the last resort instead of the primary goal so some "assaulting" actually take place.

[zraven7]

Aloha, on 08 May 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Where, in all my posts, did I say I want to remove capping? I have endorsed the addition of new modes, such as King of the Hill or TDM, but I have not asked for removing capping in Assault. I have suggested that people who likes to cap go play Conquest and let Assault be more assault and less capping, but that pretty much fell to deaf ears.

My quote that you responded to, was a direct respond to ZRAVEN7's quote about returning to base to stop a cap and that he's not running from a fight. Running away when I return to defend my base is DEFINITELY running away from a fight. So, if ZRAVEN7 stay and fight when I RTB, he's playing it "wrong"?

Yes, We all know MM is kinda broken. There's no guarantee a PUG team will have the right mix of mechs to play against cappers but for the Assault game mode, it'd be nice if we save capping as the last resort instead of the primary goal so some "assaulting" actually take place.

I'll stay and fight sometimes. If I called someone out about coming to get me, I'm certainly going to stay and fight (might get punted by an Atlas, but, hey, I asked for it). Can't fault people for running, though. Getting people to "chase the squirrel" is a legit tactic, too.