69 replies to this topic

[OneEyed Jack]

Shared radar is not even close to C3.

[Tatula]

What about head shots? If I'm able to head shot a mech and kill the pilot, shouldn't I be rewarded roughly the value of the entire mech?

[hammerreborn]

Aloha, on 09 May 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

What about head shots? If I'm able to head shot a mech and kill the pilot, shouldn't I be rewarded roughly the value of the entire mech?

Yes. That's in effect on how the salvage system currently works, but the salvage bonuses are miniscule right now. My suggestion would make them far more lucrative while drastically lowering the payouts for "wins/loss" and things such as damage.

If you want to heatshot all 8 team, for one, give me those hax or you're an awesome shot, and 2, you'd pretty much get max rewards.


All of this is to discourage "biggest and heaviest" which is the current meta. Lights become the scouters to find out the other teams composition and position and route of attack, mediums either back up the lights or fend off lights on the assaults, and the heavies/assaults either make the big pushes or go for base defense.

Playing lower weighted mechs is also a means of c-bill denial to the other team in case of a loss. That fully equipped clan tech atlas is like a giant piggy bank waiting to be broken. You don't nuke the piggy bank, you blow off it's legs, or tear off it's big gun leaving it weak and pitiful.

There could also be multipliers based on tonnage differences and loadouts (basically add the two costs of the team and the smaller team gets a multiplier based on the difference between the two), which encourages people to fight smaller but better for much larger rewards.

For instance, let's say team A has a total cost of 50 million C-bills, and team B has a total cost of 100 million C-bills. Team A would get a 2x multiplier maybe because the other team was twice as "equipped" as they were. Instead, we now see team A get roflstomped by 8 atlases and get very little reward while the atlases walk away millionaires.

Edited by hammerreborn, 09 May 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[Tatula]

I don't have to head shot all 8. Just getting one should give me millions of c-bills if I'm getting roughly the value of the entire mech. I'm not saying I'm great with head shots. I've only gotten a few so far and some of those were luck, but with your reward system, one lucky shot will land me millions.

[hammerreborn]

Aloha, on 09 May 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

I don't have to head shot all 8. Just getting one should give me millions of c-bills if I'm getting roughly the value of the entire mech. I'm not saying I'm great with head shots. I've only gotten a few so far and some of those were luck, but with your reward system, one lucky shot will land me millions.

It's not going to be full value rewards, but let's say current salvage is .01% of total cost of the mech, make it 1% or half a percent instead.

[Buzzkillin]

Grab a light and play conquest?

[Atheus]

Okay, for starters, you said:

hammerreborn, on 07 May 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Brian said that 80% of matches end with one team getting killed. Who the hell finds that fun? I find it boring.

Which makes you just about impossible to take even remotely seriously, mainly because you're apparently completely serious about that.

But you also said:

hammerreborn, on 07 May 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Why are we getting rewarded for destroying our opponents? Think of all the salvage we should be getting when we capture the base? After all, when we win, those are 6-7 fully equipped mechs I SHOULD BE EARNING as rewards, much better than just getting a centurion leg.

You apparently are not aware that you don't get to salvage a mech unless you disable it, or kill the pilot. If you try to salvage it before you disable it, the pilot in that mech (who is still alive and kicking) will just squash you and your little salvaging wrench, then walk his perfectly functional mech back to his dropship and leave.

I'm probably wasting my time here, but whatever. Just accept that fighting is always going to be central to any game with giant robots armed to the teeth with guns, lasers and missiles. Also, accept that "thinking" can heavily be applied to combat, even if the only objective is to eliminate the enemy force. It's not mandatory, but it does yield good results. You don't need to come up with any fancy game mode to be able to apply thought to a battle.

Edited by Atheus, 09 May 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[James DeGriz]

hammerreborn, on 09 May 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

.. stuff

I do understand what you're trying to do, the problem is the way you're trying to do it is actually likely to make the problem worse. Players will generally try and find the path of least resistance to maximise their rewards, which is precisely why the rewards for capping were reduced in the first place. If you make head shots and killing the CT rewards higher, it'll make pinpoint or alpha builds even more preferable. With the way things are at the moment, the rewards for component destruction and players being rewarded for more damage, rather than a quick kill actually gives players an incentive to fight, rather than go for the "tactical win". And as combat in game is generally a much more tangible indication of a players skill and involves just as much, if not more tactical guile than sneaking round the side of the map and standing in a box for two minutes, that is why the rewards are geared around success in combat, rather than in other areas.

Given the current state of the game and the fact that the only "big picture" effect of a players success is their Win / Loss or K/D ratios and that each individual match is self contained as it were, there isn't really any other reason to do anything else beyond rush to Theta and duke it out to the death. I would imagine (hope!) that CW will give us not only additional game modes to give us other considerations beyond that, but from a tactical point of view make the individual matches mean something within a bigger picture.

[James DeGriz]

Atheus, on 09 May 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Also, accept that "thinking" can heavily be applied to combat, even if the only objective is to eliminate the enemy force. It's not mandatory, but it does yield good results. You don't need to come up with any fancy game mode to be able to apply thought to a battle.

^This. And especially the emphasised part.

[James DeGriz]

hammerreborn, on 09 May 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Yes. That's in effect on how the salvage system currently works, but the salvage bonuses are miniscule right now. My suggestion would make them far more lucrative while drastically lowering the payouts for "wins/loss" and things such as damage.

If you want to heatshot all 8 team, for one, give me those hax or you're an awesome shot, and 2, you'd pretty much get max rewards.


All of this is to discourage "biggest and heaviest" which is the current meta. Lights become the scouters to find out the other teams composition and position and route of attack, mediums either back up the lights or fend off lights on the assaults, and the heavies/assaults either make the big pushes or go for base defense.

Playing lower weighted mechs is also a means of c-bill denial to the other team in case of a loss. That fully equipped clan tech atlas is like a giant piggy bank waiting to be broken. You don't nuke the piggy bank, you blow off it's legs, or tear off it's big gun leaving it weak and pitiful.

There could also be multipliers based on tonnage differences and loadouts (basically add the two costs of the team and the smaller team gets a multiplier based on the difference between the two), which encourages people to fight smaller but better for much larger rewards.

For instance, let's say team A has a total cost of 50 million C-bills, and team B has a total cost of 100 million C-bills. Team A would get a 2x multiplier maybe because the other team was twice as "equipped" as they were. Instead, we now see team A get roflstomped by 8 atlases and get very little reward while the atlases walk away millionaires.

Again: you're putting forward really complex solution to a relatively simple problem. Better matchmaking and weight balancing will solve the current issue. Additionally, doubling the rewards for weight imbalances will just mean no one will play Assaults anymore. I've also seen matches where lights and mediums score double the points of some of the assaults and heavies. Weight of mech isn't directly proportional to amount of damage done in all cases.

Additionally, at the moment there isn't really an awful lot of Role nor Information Warfare. Given these are two of the games "pillars", I'd expect further development of those to make them play a more active part in the game.

[Sephlock]

Wouldn't that turn a every high ELO game on Alpine into the ending of every Metroid game ever?



YAY! WE FINALLY GOT- OMG MUST GET TO CAP POINT!

[Mercules]

Neverfar, on 09 May 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

As a firm opponent of boat-bloaters and the "deathmatches" they want to force us all into, I can say this thread is some kind of clever trick.

It'd be no smarter removing the kill condition for winning than it'd be for the base cap mechanic to be removed.

We need more complexity and game conditions, not less.

It is amazing how many of the "Remove Base Capping" proponents missed their own arguments mirrored back at them. Oh wait... maybe it isn't so puzzling how it happened.

[oldradagast]

The game needs more modes, but I'm not really interested in playing Cap Warrior online or "let the other guy surrender" online, or whatever. Deathmatch may be simple, but that's its beauty, and I think the current system works well enough for what it is - we've all won and lost games based on capping, which is fine. The game does need more battle modes, of course, and I hope they show up with CW.

Also, keep in mind that matches end without surrender because surrender has no benefit vs. simply "dying" and respawning for the next match. If the game had "Campaign Mode" where effects from one match would linger to the next, there would be some logical choices to be made: fight to the death, surrender and regroup, etc. Of course, I'd still want them to keep the current Quick Play mode since that's all I have time to play - I can't make this game into another job.

Edited by oldradagast, 10 May 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[Hammertrial]

Mercules, on 10 May 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

It is amazing how many of the "Remove Base Capping" proponents missed their own arguments mirrored back at them. Oh wait... maybe it isn't so puzzling how it happened.

It's no fun if you point it out.

[zolop]

Please make a true deathmatch mode AND a conquest mode that puts more c-bills or importantce to capture. Maybe in conquest make a C-Bill mulitplyier based upon how much you captured of the enemies base? Then adjust the kills/component destruction by 1/4 less?

Wait....could it be really that simple to make farming for c-bills in conquest that simple?

No way, must've used all of my brain power, sarcasm of course... Of course this idea would need balancing and a mode for team deathmatch needs to be added as a seperate mode.

A basic example..

Amount capped of enemy base = Modifier/Multiplier

0%-10% +5g (5g=5,000 CB)
11%-20% +8g (8g=8,000 CB)
21%-30% +16g
31%-40% +30g
41%-50% X1.5 of total of destroyed battlemechs added to total CB payout
51%-80% X1.8 of total of destroyed battlemechs added to total CB payout
81%-100% X2 of total of destroyed battlemechs added to total CB payout

Examples
MW makes 40g in destruction, enemy base is capped 36% 40g+30g 70g in CBills
MW makes 70g in destruction, enemy base is capped 90% 70g muliplied twice equeal 120g. MW aquires 140g in CBills

Number would need to be adjusted so that destruction and capping are equally important, with capturing a base being more important in conquestmode. The other solution could be related to my signature and make base facilities have a CBill bonus when you destroy them...

If bonus to CBills is added based upon capturing in conquest mode, it needs to be timed so that people that just constantly run away/afk can't prolong the game indefinately. Of course it would also need to remain PvP. But honestly conquest mode should be about conquest and attacking a base through with bonus CBills depending upon what parts of the based are destroyed or captured. Make a entirely sperate mode for Team Deathmatch for people that would rather enjoy operating with much less strategy and allow for us strategy buffs to enjoy the game using the challenge it would provide.

Edited by zolop, 14 May 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Galenit]

Respawns are dumb, they will just lead to more cheese ....
Remove armor, pack as much weapons as possible, override, fire until overheat explosion, respawn, repeat ...

Solaris VII is the planet where you should search for deathmatch, its a gaming planet with 6 mech arenas made for that.
Ask the real Duncan Fisher about it:

Duncan Fisher said:

I like that guy's style. He came out punching until his 'mech went POW! Heck, I bet he's still trying to fire at the other guy.

You get a lot of different kind of pilots in these Light matches. Not a big surprise because these 'mechs are CHEAP. A single weapon on the Assault circuit can cost more than an entire 'MECH in this league. Anyone who can afford a Flea and a couple of machine guns can compete in this league.

More game modes are needed.
A real assault, where one team defends a real base and the other has to attack it. Maybe with more attackers then defenders and turrets or the attackers have some help from npcs. Win occurs by capturing the fieldbase or destroying the hq.

Escort, where one team has to escort a slow, heavy armored vehicle across the map and the other team has to destroy it.

Rescue, where boxes spawn on 3 random locations (5 possible positions for each box (1 near centerline, 1 1/3 from the border on each site) on the map, the team witch brings all 3 to its base wins. But they can bring them only all together to the base. If your team hold 2 and the other 1 you have to fight about them (only mechs with handactuators can carry them, maybe visible for others or with a marker to find out witch mech has it).

Supplies, on random locations on the map a npc (truck?) spawns (one, after its destroyed the next spawns), it goes across the map to a despawn point. The team that first catches (destroys and picks the loot up, to force fighting and giving lights the chance to ninja) 5 (?) of them wins. Maybe each loot gives some extra cbills or revills 10% ammo, ...

Headhunt, mission is to destroy the enemy commander. Only command console users can be a commander and they must be leader of the team and have a assaultmech. The matchmaker chooses the commander from all matching players in a team. The enemy dont know who is your commander, he only knows that it is an assault mech. (Maybe the commander get for this matchtype a bonus of 50% for armor and internals?)

But thats only hopes.
In the moment they remove every feature thats made it a "thinking shooter". Convergence, collisions, r&r, ....
If they can bring this all back, make a real mechtree, balance weapons,
remember the tt and fix a lot of other thinks that are wrong ....
... then i will welcome new gamemodes.

Edited by Galenit, 14 May 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

Neverfar, on 14 May 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

To these bloat-boaters, "fun" is besides the point. It's all about winning, and winning as easily as possible. Except for capping of course.

Dude you've said the exact same thing as that multiple times. (Paraphrase) "It doesn't matter if the game mode objective isn't any fun or is poorly balanced. Its part of the game so it is totally legitimate".

Maybe you should admit that both the metagame and the game mode both need a lot of work.

[Keifomofutu]

Neverfar, on 15 May 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Incorrect. I never, ever said it was all about winning no matter what. Even in my thread about capping to remind bloat-boaters not to sit and stack in middle, I said I preferred when at least one Mech took the time to go and attack me, win or lose.

So, again, incorrect. Your little boat of hot air has sprung another leak. If you want to fish up a quote of mine and try to bend it wildly out of context, go ahead. I'm all but expecting it.

And if nobody tried to stop you would you just cap it out or what? It doesn't matter what you want. What really matters is what you do. And making multiple threads just to troll players who don't play the game the way you want them to does tend to paint the truest picture.

You hate the bloat boats so **** them right?

You know you'd see less of the PPC snipers if you didn't go for the easymode win every time right? You've got nobody to blame but yourself that you are so miserable with the game.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 15 May 2013 - 12:10 AM.

[Atheus]

Neverfar, on 15 May 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

Projection is a hell of a thing, champ. And you're doing a lot of it, right now.

Unlike you, I have advocated strongly for Mechs I dont even use (mediums, though I am dipping into them now out of morbid curiosity), weapons I never equip (flamers may have had an abused broken period, but are such short range that they ought to at least be worth putting on again), and tactics I generally am not interested in (such as putting a TAG on stuff for LRM boats in my Light. Tried it, hated it).

Also, another sign of projection: you're complaining about my frequent posting. Yet you show up in just about every thread I post, usually to whine at me.

Last projection: "waaah your way is easymode". I've poptarted with PPCs and a gauss before on my Heavy Metal for quite a few matches just to see how "hard it was." Surprise, it wasn't hard. On several matches I had 3-4 kills and some irritated people upset with me. For good reason. And I'm the first to say I'm terrible at this game because I tended to hit side torsos haphazrdly instead of center-coring. And was still effective.

In other words, you're not impressing me or anyone. Except maybe some bloat-boaters who need a white knight to justify their lazy-*** gameplay.

I'd love to see a screen shot of your mech stats screen, just to see what sort of experience you're drawing your opinions from.

[Hammertrial]

Atheus, on 15 May 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

I'd love to see a screen shot of your mech stats screen, just to see what sort of experience you're drawing your opinions from.

JENNER JR7-D 700 436 261 1.67 712 366 1.95 211,284 465,520 2 days 10:46:02

JENNER JR7-F 193 102 91 1.12 211 116 1.82 53,899 108,645 16:52:38

Theres mine.

Jenner D is 2 srm4 3 meds tag

F is typically 6 meds but theres plenty of rounds with 6 flamers

Edited by Hammertrial, 15 May 2013 - 04:22 AM.