85 replies to this topic

[drinniol]

Sure they use ammo, but lasers require multiple heatsinks.

Psikez, on 07 May 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

They still make a nice sound.

If you can't jerk a mech back and around to get a shot on a spider I'm concerned for you

I'm not talking circling Spider noobs, but the ones who pay attention to where your Mech is going.

[Psikez]

drinniol, on 07 May 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Sure they use ammo, but lasers require multiple heatsinks.



I'm not talking circling Spider noobs, but the ones who pay attention to where your Mech is going.

I'm quite happy running a 6 small laser jenner with nothing but the engine heat sinks.

I am quite aware of the Spiders you were referring to.

[DrunkDrivin]

Denno, on 07 May 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

I will never get outraged about an anti-infantry weapon being weak against 19 tons or so of armor.

This line really grates on me every time I read it. Did you recycle that from another post or did you actually read on what an MG in the BT universe does? By your statement I already know the answer.

[Dude42]

Machine gun bullets(0.8) do more damage than long range missiles(0.7). Sounds right to me.

[Stargoat]

Dude42, on 07 May 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

Machine gun bullets(0.8) do more damage than long range missiles(0.7). Sounds right to me.

That's not really a valid comparison; they're weapons designed for very different roles, with very different mechanics, used at very different ranges. The only weapons it makes sense to compare against are the smaller lasers for damage/weight, and other ballistics for ammo/tonne.

[Khobai]

they dont need 1.2 dps. 0.8 is fine.

0.8 dps along with the critical damage multiplier will make machine guns very good component killers... they will completely shred components in just a few seconds of firing.

plus remember theyre getting a much needed range increase as well.

Quote

Machine gun bullets(0.8) do more damage than long range missiles(0.7). Sounds right to me.

You have dps confused with damage. Machine gun bullets will only do 0.08 damage. They just fire 10 times per second.

Edited by Khobai, 07 May 2013 - 07:36 PM.

[Stargoat]

Khobai, on 07 May 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

You have dps confused with damage. Machine gun bullets will only do 0.08 damage. They just fire 10 times per second.

Hah, imagine an 8 DPS machinegun, and four of those in a Spider K. That thing would be a machine!

Interestingly, MGs will now have greater damage potential/tonne than LRMs.

Edited by Stargoat, 07 May 2013 - 07:43 PM.

[Sable Dove]

Stargoat, on 07 May 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Hah, imagine an 8 DPS machinegun, and four of those in a Spider K. That thing would be a machine!

Interestingly, MGs will now have greater damage potential/tonne than LRMs.

Actually, while the listed damage is lower, due to the splash damage, LRMs typically cause ~0.9 damage per missile, or about 170 damage per ton, compared to the MG's (future) 160 per ton.

Also, in order to get 8 DPS per MG, you'd have to fire 100 rounds per second.
Giving you 32 DPS total for about five seconds per ton of ammo. Which would be silly/awesome.

Edited by Sable Dove, 07 May 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[shabowie]

DrunkDrivin, on 07 May 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

If they did, the 6 MG spider would be an Atlas killer.

******** Atlas killer maybe.

[Straften]

Why don't we just see what 200% machine gun damage looks like first. Most of us can do the math easily, but let's just wait and see them in action. If they are still unusable, then let's reconsider this idea.

I don't think OP's idea is bad, I just think we should see 0.08 first.

Edited by Straften, 07 May 2013 - 10:52 PM.

[Mr 144]

1.2 DPS....

....let's build around the most 'beasty' MG boat in-game....

Jager-DD
std 275 (75.4kph)
Endo
2xERPPC
17 DHS
6xMGs
4 tons ammo (tweak as needed if ammo is changed)

The ERPPCs alone do 6.67 DPS....16.53 seconds to shut-down.
The 6xMGs (at 1.2) do 7.2 DPS completely heat free.

Now let's Brawl with an AC/40 Jager....

AC/40...
0 sec = 40
4 sec = 80 (not enough to kill a std. engine Jager)
8 sec = 120

MG -DD
0 sec = 20
3 sec = 40 (+21.6 MG) = 61.6
6 sec = 60 (+43.2 MG) = 103.2 (enough to kill an XL'd Jager via ST at ~%35 MG shots landed on ST)
9 sec = 80 (+64.8 MG) = 140.8

Machine Gun Monster...the Brawling King if they buff 'em all the way to 1.2 dps....

Mr 144

[Keifomofutu]

Mr 144, on 07 May 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

1.2 DPS....

....let's build around the most 'beasty' MG boat in-game....

Jager-DD
std 275 (75.4kph)
Endo
2xERPPC
17 DHS
6xMGs
4 tons ammo (tweak as needed if ammo is changed)

The ERPPCs alone do 6.67 DPS....16.53 seconds to shut-down.
The 6xMGs (at 1.2) do 7.2 DPS completely heat free.

Now let's Brawl with an AC/40 Jager....

AC/40...
0 sec = 40
4 sec = 80 (not enough to kill a std. engine Jager)
8 sec = 120

MG -DD
0 sec = 20
3 sec = 40 (+21.6 MG) = 61.6
6 sec = 60 (+43.2 MG) = 103.2 (enough to kill an XL'd Jager via ST at ~%35 MG shots landed on ST)
9 sec = 80 (+64.8 MG) = 140.8

Machine Gun Monster...the Brawling King if they buff 'em all the way to 1.2 dps....

Mr 144

Forgot about the fact that mg's don't pick out a single part of a torso. They spray the whole mech and only from point blank range. AC20 jager would win that fight every time. Also because you are using the mgs you can't torso twist to defend yourself and still maintain DAT DPS.

Honestly you could use your exact argument above to declare that the 4x AC2 Jager is the new brawling king because it has 16 dps. But we all know it never plays out like that.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 08 May 2013 - 12:05 AM.

[Mr 144]

Keifomofutu, on 08 May 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Forgot about the fact that mg's don't pick out a single part of a torso. They spray the whole mech and only from point blank range. AC20 jager would win that fight every time.

You obviously missed the bolded and underlined portion that said only 35% of MG shots need to land on target...perfectly reasonable. Math doesn't lie.

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 08 May 2013 - 12:04 AM.

[Keifomofutu]

Mr 144, on 08 May 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

You obviously missed the bolded and underlined portion that said only 35% of MG shots need to land on target...perfectly reasonable. Math doesn't lie.

Mr 144

When most people post their MG stats they have a hit rate of 50% ANYWHERE. So hoping to get 2/3 of that 50% on a single body part with a spread weapon is highly naïve of you. And mgs real dps isn't that high.

A)There is a bug that reduces MG rate of fire.

B)You have to face your target 100% of the time to deal full dps.

And in any case if DPS was everything AC2 would rule the battlefield.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 08 May 2013 - 12:12 AM.

[Mr 144]

Keifomofutu, on 08 May 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

When most people post their MG stats they have a hit rate of 50% ANYWHERE. So hoping to get 2/3 of that 50% on a single body part with a spread weapon is highly naïve of you. And mgs real dps isn't that high.

A)There is a bug that reduces MG rate of fire.

B)You have to face your target 100% of the time to deal full dps.

And in any case if DPS was everything AC2 would rule the battlefield.

The comparison to AC/2 DPS cannot be made, because you cannot make a heat maneagble build that can mathematically do this to an AC/40. The heat simply does not allow it. You can bring anything you want into the debate, but it's all moot. Player skill works both ways...there are advantages and disadvantages to both builds, but the simple mathematical FACT remains, that in a close range brawl, the AC/40 will lose to the MG Jager. Hard to imagine I know, but under any scenario it would just plain out be superior in that role.

Mr 144

[Keifomofutu]

Mr 144, on 08 May 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

The comparison to AC/2 DPS cannot be made, because you cannot make a heat maneagble build that can mathematically do this to an AC/40. The heat simply does not allow it. You can bring anything you want into the debate, but it's all moot. Player skill works both ways...there are advantages and disadvantages to both builds, but the simple mathematical FACT remains, that in a close range brawl, the AC/40 will lose to the MG Jager. Hard to imagine I know, but under any scenario it would just plain out be superior in that role.

Mr 144

I think you really need to take a 4MG +LPL spider out. Play some rounds and then imagine you can do 2x as much. Your expectations of a 6MG jager might get toned down somewhat. Its a spread weapon not a precision laser. You'll have to wipe out a targets armor everywhere in order to core it. A six small laser jenner would still easily kick that spiders butt after the buff. And the same would apply to an ac20 jager against an MG jager.

I'll say one thing though. Even if the 6MG 1.2 DPS jager DID beat the AC20 jager in a point blank fight wouldn't that be a good thing? The Ac20 Jager is useful out to 400 meters. The MG jager is only really using most of his weapons no further than 120meters. Would it be so imbalanced if the MG jager was actually useful in a knifefight?

[MustrumRidcully]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 May 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Yes, it would take 16 uninterrupted seconds at point blank range to core out the rear of a stock Atlas, versus the 48 it currently takes.

Mind you, getting the Atlas to stand still for those 16 seconds, and his friends to leave you alone, AND being able to park 50 m away to minimize their cone of fire might still be problematic, but theoretically, I suppose a quad ER PPC Atlas MIGHT manage to shut itself down long enough to actually die. Maybe. On Tourmaline, AFTER the rest of it's team was killed off.

Or in short, totally OP.

[MustrumRidcully]

Dude42, on 07 May 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

Machine gun bullets(0.8) do more damage than long range missiles(0.7). Sounds right to me.

Machine Gun Bellets will, after the buff, deal 0.08 damage. With their theoretical max recycle ability, that amounts to 0.8 DPS. LRms can be fired about 1 every 5 seconds, so the LRM even in it's poor state deals 1.4 DPS per missile. And 1 missile is basically what - a 0.4 ton weapon, if we go by the LRM5 weight?

[Mr 144]

Keifomofutu, on 08 May 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

I'll say one thing though. Even if the 6MG 1.2 DPS jager DID beat the AC20 jager in a point blank fight wouldn't that be a good thing? The Ac20 Jager is useful out to 400 meters. The MG jager is only really using most of his weapons no further than 120meters. Would it be so imbalanced if the MG jager was actually useful in a knifefight?

See now disagreeing on the math is just wrong. It's not opinion...it's math. This portion however, I have nothing against. As long as the people advocating 1.2 dps understand that in doing so you'll be creating a face-hugging nightmare, while still having excellent heat effeciency to hill-hump.

Fair to note also, that while the AC/40 is still perfectly useable to those distances, projectile speed is a direct reflection on the loss of accuacy at those distances. Even at 400m, the MG Jager I posted is doing approx. equal damage (1 sec fater RoF) than the 40, and beyond that...it wins again due to the pair of ERPPCs. The MG build would actually be equal(ish) from around 350m to 450m...inferior from 80m to 350...and superior at both 0m-80m and 450m-1000m. It would actually be a VERY dangerous build.

As long as you're OK with that kind of result, then buff away to 1.2dps

Mr 144

[Keifomofutu]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 May 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Machine Gun Bellets will, after the buff, deal 0.08 damage. With their theoretical max recycle ability, that amounts to 0.8 DPS. LRms can be fired about 1 every 5 seconds, so the LRM even in it's poor state deals 1.4 DPS per missile. And 1 missile is basically what - a 0.4 ton weapon, if we go by the LRM5 weight?

Just a little bit more range and functionality too. Only a touch.