16 replies to this topic

[Kensaisama]

To begin I feel you did not make Beagle Active Probe strong enough, it is my opinion that you only half implemented its capability, on top of the enhanced sensor range, faster target aquistion and detection of shut down mechs, you should have added the full compliment of mech detection within its range to the battlemap. What I mean by this is you should have made it so any active enemy mech that is within range of the BAP carrying mech, regardless of LOS, should show up on the battlemap, this is the other detect hidden units property of BAP. The drawback to this would be if you can see the enemy on the battlemap, they can see you as you are actively probing, add a small radar icon on the HUD to indicate being actively probed, also make the BAP toggleable, so you can switch it on and off when needed, add a cooldown for balance if necessary. This in my opinion will make BAP very useful and very powerful on the battlefield. Addendum: You still need LOS to gain targeting telemetry to fire anything at the mechs shown on the battlemap. No LOS or friendly with LOS, no fire weapons.

ECM should stay as is with an exception, reduce its coverage radius if within range of enemy BAP, say from 180m to 100m, this can be adjusted up or down to balance it out more if necessary, I feel a reduced area of effect is warranted but not a complete cancellation of ECM. Only another ECM in counter mode should cancel ECM as it currently stands. In essence the enemy is moving and under 180m of ECM coverage, BAP is activated from a friendly unit and it reduces the coverage radius of the enemy ECM to 100m, 2 or 3 enemy mechs are now outside the ECM coverage radius and they now show up on the battlemap. You want that ECM coverage then you are going to have to stay closer to the mech carrying it. This will also have a side benefit of artillary and air strikes being used more often, clustered mechs make for good bombardment targets.

What about a mech carrying both BAP and ECM you say? Easy, obviously once you activate BAP your gonna show up on the battlemap, but if you're carrying ECM you won't, the drawback should be to reduce your ECM coverage to just a few meters if carrying both EW equipment. This way the ECM will not provide coverage to teammates when BAP is active and making the combination of EW equipment way overpowered. I also believe that only one mech should be allowed to carry both and that would be the Raven 3L since that mech is designed specifically to be an electronic warfare platform to begin with, and is the only mech released so far that actually carries both BAP and ECM. So if you want both you better skill up a Raven. Any other mech to carry both mods obviously should be on a case by case basis.

This gentlemen is my opinion, suggestion and idea on implementing/improving electronic warfare. I sincerely hope any Dev reads this and cogitates on its merrits.

Edited by Kensaisama, 09 May 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Spyder228]

Agreed. BAP and ECM were both botched upon intial implementation. Why would a sensor package counter a counter measure designed to hide from sensors?

Edited by Spyder228, 08 May 2013 - 08:36 AM.

[Syllogy]

Changes are already incoming.

Quote

BAP
Now here's the biggie. BAP is meant to increase your sensor range by amplifying your sensor systems. It allows you to get detail targeting information faster and also allows you to detect nearby shutdown Mechs. Yeah? So?... well...

BAP will now negate ECM within 150m (tuning number) of the enemy. Negate? What 'chu talkin' 'bout Paul?

If Mech X has BAP, and Mech Y has ECM, and Mech X gets within 150m or less of Mech Y, Mech Y loses all effects of ECM. It is a 100% counter to ECM. Mech Y is now vulnerable to LRMs/S-SRMs as long as Mech X stays within 150m. Any friendly Mechs to Mech Y will no longer be shielded until Mech X leaves the 150m area around Mech Y.

ECM is now a long range Mech item. A scout can now use it to remain hidden from LRMs while performing their job. A LRM/command Atlas can rain down death while maintaining LoS on their distant targets without worries of LRMs coming back at them.

ECM is now getting a dedicated hardpoint that works just like AMS. It will be located in a dedicated component such as the right or left torso.

ECM will also no longer mess with friendly IDF markings so you always know who's friend and foe.

Edited by Syllogy, 08 May 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[Kensaisama]

Yes Syllogy, this post is in response to those changes, I feel PGI is moving in the wrong direction with their changes hence my post on the subject and my take on electronic warfare and its implementation. Quoting a developer with nothing to contribute of your own does not add to the discussion, thank you for trying.

Edited by Kensaisama, 08 May 2013 - 08:04 AM.

[Syllogy]

If you were responding to those changes, then those comments should go here.

Creating a new thread without any reference to the context does not add to the discussion, thank you for trying.

[Kensaisama]

Well in retrospect you did add to the conversation by providing the very thing I was posting about, for that thank you. Carry on.

[Yankee77]

I entirely disagree with the suggestion of just reducing disrupt range to 100 meters.

In fact, I think the gameplay experience will be greatly enhanced across the board if they just remove the disrupt effect entirely, only keeping the stealth effect, with none of these BAP changes.

ECM is entirely too powerful, as evidenced by the plethora of counters they've had and still are implementing. It should have done ONE thing, not 4 different things in a single package. If the devs want ECM to be a long range item, which is fine by me, then take away what makes it degrade gameplay when at close range.

Thank you.

[Kensaisama]

Itkovian, on 08 May 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I entirely disagree with the suggestion of just reducing disrupt range to 100 meters.

In fact, I think the gameplay experience will be greatly enhanced across the board if they just remove the disrupt effect entirely, only keeping the stealth effect, with none of these BAP changes.

ECM is entirely too powerful, as evidenced by the plethora of counters they've had and still are implementing. It should have done ONE thing, not 4 different things in a single package. If the devs want ECM to be a long range item, which is fine by me, then take away what makes it degrade gameplay when at close range.

Thank you.

Unfortunetly pandoras box has been opened. I strongly disagree with the direction PGI is taking with their upcoming changes, hence my idea's and opinions. The tragedy here will be my leaving if they implement thier vision of EW, in which I firmly believe is flawed and in no way keeping with the spirit of the rules. Now before someone comes in here and tells me that the TT rules will not translate into an action shooter, I understand completely that not every single TT rule will translate to an action shooter, I accept this fact but I believe the EW rules can translate almost entirely intact.

Now I understand that some of my suggestions are not in keeping with the rules of TT 100%, but this is an action shooter, some allowances must be made in order to achieve as much balance as possible without one thing becoming overpowered. ECM in its current state is very powerful, everyone is complaining and has been from day one of release of ECM. I have suggested a way to curtail some of that power without completely destroying its utility, changes to the TAG system have been made to also curtail some of its power, another ECM unit in counter mode can negate its power completely, now PGI wants to make BAP negate ECM as well, this is where the line is drawn, I say no. Utilize a different approach to curtailing ECM's power, don't add another negation factor into the mix, besides, ECM is supposed to negate BAP if the BAP carrying mech is caught in range of ECM per the TT rules, as it is currently implemented in game. Give BAP a reason to be nullified by ECM as per my idea above.

Thank you Itkovian for contributing.

Edited by Kensaisama, 09 May 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[funnymanv]

I agree with Kensai there should be a different approach taken in how ECM is balanced out game play can always be always be argued about making things to complex or to simple but the fact remains for the true battle tech fans sticking to the rules is essential most people don't play this as a simple shooter. that isn't what this game was designed to be. it is meant to be a complex battle simulator in a sense. the more complex items are the more realistic they become from what i know ECM is meant to shadow you from detection and BAP is meant to allow faster knowledge gathering on enemy units. There should be a balance to them not complete negation of abilities.

[stevemac]

I agree with whats been said here PGI seems to be caving to all the people that want this to be like COD that don't want to use any type of tactics * points to pop tarts and base cappers and Pugging Lrm boats. they are the same people that want to respawn right away and have a new POV out side the mech. now that said you want to counter ECM simple don't load up on LRMs or streak 2 balance your load out you see a ecm mech kill it first and move on. now some info I found...
The Beagle Active Probe (BAP) is a suite of enhancement technology that, when attached to general electronic sensors, enables the equipped unit to detect and classify other battlefield units -with the exception of conventional infantry- whether they are camouflaged or even shut down.^[1] The probe was first introduced by the Terran Hegemony in 2576 and subsequently lost in the Succession Wars by 2835. It was recovered in 3045 by the Capellan Confederation. The Clans never "lost" the technology, but dispensed with the "Beagle" surname when they polished the concept.^[2]
In addition to the ability to detect and classify targets at longer range, the Beagle includes a memory unit that records the events of a battle and allows for later playback. This includes the ability for the user to "re-fight" the battle by making different tactical decisions, which are then analyzed and implemented by the system, allowing for the resulting consequences to be observed. No where in there does it say counter ECM this is whats needed to counter ECM
The Bloodhound Active Probe was first introduced by ComStar in 3058.^[1] After the Clan Invasion they saw a need to improve their already formidable electronic warfare capabilities. Events in the latter half of the 31st Century overtook them however, and the Bloodhound Active Probe didn't enter large scale production.
Using the Beagle Active Probe as a baseline, ComStar technicians created a probe that had a range of 240 meters^[2] and could penetrate advanced stealth systems. Testing proved conclusively that a Bloodhound-equipped 'Mech could spot units equipped with Null Signature Systems, Void Signature Systems, Stealth Armor, and ECM Suites.^[1] The Bloodhound can also detect battle armor equipped with ECM systems, Mimetic Armor, or any kind of Stealth Armor.^[

[Damon]

Alright. Yes ECM needs tweaking and if you are going to cite the rules from BattleTech, here they are off of sarna's ECM page, since its easier than typing it from my books on the shelf:

- In Tournament-level game play, the use of an ECM suite is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems. It can also cut a unit off from a C3 Network.
- In Tactical Operations, additional uses for an ECM suite are shown as optional rules, including defeating other ECM and generating ghost targets.

With MWOs current build, this would only effect: NARC, BAP, Artemis/TAG. The advanced rules include countering enemy ECM coverage and generating ghost, fake, sensor targets. Guardian ECM also has a range of 180 m, 6 hexes. Per the Guardian ECM sarna page with reference:
"The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes."

This allows for BAP to know that something is there if it is close enough, per the new modification to BAP to allow it to effectively cancel out ECM at close range (this would be an opinion since other rules negate this effect). Another side effect of the ECM is on streak missiles: ECM does counter streak targeting information, rendering said streaks in effect normal SRM missile launchers, per MWO "dumb-fire".

Now on to the Beagle Active Probe. Per Total Warfare, pg 129, the BAP only applies to hidden units. So, if a hidden or undetected unit comes within range of the active probe, it is immediately detected. TW also states that BAP do not penetrate an ECM field but will know they are being jammed, pg 134. Per Tactical Operations, pg 99,, an active probe can make it easier to target enemies through trees, acquire detailed information about the targeted enemy, and allow for an easier time penetrating ghost targets created by ECMs.

So in essence: MWO ECM is overpowered. MWO BAP is underpowered. BAP has the potential to partially counter ECM. ECM has the potential to have extra abilities.

However comma pause, MWO has long diverged from the direct implementation of rules/stats from BattleTech to create a flowing and fun Mecha Sim. But with that, MWO is still based off of BT and as such should take more than a cursory glance at those rules sets.

[Gremlich Johns]

If you are using BAP to locate targets quicker, your targets should be able to find you quicker as well.

[Kensaisama]

Gremlich Johns, on 09 May 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

If you are using BAP to locate targets quicker, your targets should be able to find you quicker as well.

I did state that in my post

[Kensaisama]

lets get this moved back to the first page shall we So no additional thoughts or comments from the MWO community?

[General Taskeen]

Well there are many threads asking for the same thing basically. For common sense in regards to ECM implementation and just making it be ECM from TT with some bonuses, if need be.

[Kensaisama]

General Taskeen, on 13 May 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Well there are many threads asking for the same thing basically. For common sense in regards to ECM implementation and just making it be ECM from TT with some bonuses, if need be.

I agree, however it seems the developers have turned a blind eye to the community in regards to suggestions and ideas. Some of them have a lot of merrit.

[Turook]

As PGI have already stated they are not adhering to BT rules and abilities.
As I have already stated many times before, The Guardian probe shouldn't be doing what it is doing, PGI have brought in the Angel ECM and called it Guardian, two different kettles of fish.
Guardian: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Guardian_ECM
Angel: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Angel_ECM

Pertinent Info:
Guardian: Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.

Angel: Within its 6 hex radius (200m?) of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.

So as you can see PGI cocked it up right from the start and even now streaks should be able to be fired at ECM'd targets.
As so many people have already stated, they should stop screwing with all the nerfs and just go back and fix it from the start, which would stop quite a lot of the !@#$%. OR, people can get over what they see as something that is broken and just live with what PGI are trying to do. I'll leave that decision to you.

My main standing ground on anything that PGI does when the screaming starts is "what will they do with the C3 system".
Technically we already have it in place. It's you the player. I say kudos to PGI having turned a dice rolling game into a FPS.
Yes they have taken a few wrong turns that have ended up in dead ends that no amount of nerfing will fix, but we will all just have to wait and see where we end up.