86 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Shumabot, on 08 May 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Value is a scaling proposition, ONE fast mech could still do the duty just as well (leaving 7-11 assaults to act on that info). Keep in mind, on Alpine all you have to do is walk to the top of the mountain in the middle and you've scouted the entire map (just one more stupid thing about alpine) but lets assume Alpine is a fluke of horrid decisions. If all you want is information about a particular part of the map you can just send one mech of almost any type to it, it doesn't have to be a "fast mover". The only realistic threat to an AC40 jager in a "scouting role" is getting harassed down by lights, but at that point it's already done its job and once both teams deathballs confirm eachothers location the heavier one wins. Scouting needs a use beyond first contact since anything can do that. Destructable bases are neat, but pretty much identical to cap bases we have now. It's just "be in X area for X amount of time", and even in that you're actually punishing light scouts and rewarding more heavy weapons.

So lets say 12 vs 12. 4 lights on one team. 1 light on the other. Rest are heavy and assault.

The 4 lights on the one team spread out and are able to find the base quick, converge on it, and work to destroy it (adding actual interaction).

Where as the other team is now stuck with 1 light trying to find the base, while the heavies and assaults try to scout.

Keeping in mind you can't repair the base, so if their 4 lights encounter defenders they can certainly move in and out hitting the base while back up comes.

It's not perfect, it's just a basic idea, but I think it starts to address some of the issues. And makes having a lance of faster mediums/lights helpful.

[ICEFANG13]

You know what would be nice, if light mechs could detect to 900m, mediums 800m, heavies 700, assaults 750m, or something like that. That alone would increase scouting from light mechs a good deal, they would be really good at it.

The longer you, and only you, have sight to a target, the more c-bills and xp you get, not like a million per second, but maybe 50cbills/10xp per 10 seconds would be pretty good.

Light mechs having, on average, more modules would also be helpful (along with mediums) (less for heavier mechs, AND/OR more for lighter). I'm really surprised we don't have a mech with 0 to start, I mean there are a few that would make sense to.

Oh I wanted to add, in my mind, light mechs and to a lesser degree, medium mechs, are equally effective as missiles are. LRM mechs are great prey, but dangerous to larger mechs, and SRMs are what give lighter mechs a great close range punch. Of course there are SSRMs as well, but those are currently a pure upgrade for negligible tonnage.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 08 May 2013 - 06:22 PM.

[Shumabot]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 May 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

So lets say 12 vs 12. 4 lights on one team. 1 light on the other. Rest are heavy and assault.

The 4 lights on the one team spread out and are able to find the base quick, converge on it, and work to destroy it (adding actual interaction).

Where as the other team is now stuck with 1 light trying to find the base, while the heavies and assaults try to scout.

Keeping in mind you can't repair the base, so if their 4 lights encounter defenders they can certainly move in and out hitting the base while back up comes.

It's not perfect, it's just a basic idea, but I think it starts to address some of the issues. And makes having a lance of faster mediums/lights helpful.

That's pretty much identical to conquest now in how it functions. One team steam rolls the other while its lights cap points and then the lights spread out and shut down since engagement and actual gameplay means death/losing. You're forcing the entire game to function around light mechs for the purpose of making light mechs valid, but if the only way light mechs can be made valid is via objectives that are unenjoyable for the other 75% of mechs than its a bad implementation. Light mechs themselves don't make sense in round based combat scenarios like these, and without asymmetrical matchmaking using weight limits or enforced comp spreads they'll always be the underdogs.

There is simply no good way to force light mechs into a round based game like this, especially when ECM hardcounters LRMs and spotting for LRMs was the closest lights were ever going to get to being coordinated scouts. What the game needs is a matchmaking system that isn't random. Teams need to be aware of what the other team is taking and teams need weight restrictions. As slow counterstrike their matchmaking system isn't serving the game properly.

[Das Wudone]

i think they should introduce some other modifier for certain mechs depending on how its role plays in the battlefield. i really liked how the devs proposed 4 skill trees for pilots back in the day but didnt push through to our dismay. but what if u can put that in game, only it should be applied to mechs instead?

ok so those 4 skill trees if i remember correctly were scout, commander, assault, defender. what if u could assign each of those roles on ur mechs? and depending on the role u get XP bonuses for completing something in a match. for scouts u get better XP for spotting, tagging, etc. for defender u get more XP for assisting allies, defending base from cap, defending the commander, etc. i think u guys know what im getting at here. all this shouldnt be limited to just mech XP but should also add on GXP.

further expanding on that what if u can assign any role u want on any mech? ofc it all boils down to common sense which role fits which mech but for those of advanced skill they would for example assign commander to a raven 3L with ECM+beagle+modules that stays somewhere hidden watching the front lines and issuing commands/dropping artillery/using uavs. i think this will significantly enhance mech builds specialized for each role meaning its not only super alpha builds or circling-of-death light mechs out on the field. plus it wouldnt be redundant to buy the same variant either.

and even further expanding on above, what if those roles can advance further into combinations of each class? scout+assault can become harasser, commander+defender can become..... umm... insert name here (my imagination isnt working now >.<). well u essentially get the point anyhow.

[Screech]

ICEFANG13, on 08 May 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

You know what would be nice, if light mechs could detect to 900m, mediums 800m, heavies 700, assaults 750m, or something like that. That alone would increase scouting from light mechs a good deal, they would be really good at it.

I would rather have a smaller signature for detection as you get smaller. Detect a assault 900m and a light at 750m(or something). More play style I think but much rather not be seen then being able to see more.

[Prezimonto]

And a gentle nudge back to page one!

[LordBraxton]

Yes, this is a good topic, I don't pilot lights but I think every mech class should have different reward systems based on their role.

Mediums pilots, for example would get a ton of bonus points for bringing a gimped mech to the party.

[Das Wudone]

LordBraxton, on 09 May 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Yes, this is a good topic, I don't pilot lights but I think every mech class should have different reward systems based on their role.

Mediums pilots, for example would get a ton of bonus points for bringing a gimped mech to the party.

majority of the mediums are good brawlers and ideal defenders/supporters for bigger mechs with some able to hunt lights as well. which is why they should implement a role system based on their original idea. the reward system now is actually pretty good but i feel that it can be improved further with objectives completed depending on role.

[Mercules]

Well, when CW comes around and a lobby system if they were to impose weight limits on mechs we might see more Lights in use. If they were smart they would set it up so the max tonnage of the group was about 480 tons. You could bring 4 Atlas but then you would have to bring 4 Fleas. You could bring 6 Centurion/Hunchback/Trebuchet and 2 Highlanders. I think it would add a lot to the game since they refuse to consider Battle Value which would also help most "Scouts" out.

[ICEFANG13]

I also like that idea, but also should have a minimum tonnage and it could be different for different planets.

[Darwins Dog]

+1 for more scouting rewards. That needs to happen. I believe that it is actually being looked at by the devs, so that's good. I don't think that this should include increased capture rewards. Capturing the base, while a valid tactic, is not really scouting. It's creating a distraction, exploiting a defensive weakness, or a last-ditch attempt to win. I like the ideas about tagging and splitting rewards. Probably not 50/50, but maybe 30/70 in favor if the one doing damage. Right now the system rewards damage done too heavily, and the light mechs just can't reliably do as much as a heavy/assault.

The exception is, of course, in conquest mode. There should most certainly be a bigger reward for capturing nodes in conquest mode. I would make it something like 10xp per node that you actually help capture, but only for the winners.

[Prezimonto]

And back to the top!

[Gremlich Johns]

The ONLY reward a pilot performing the Scout role should receive is for Scouting enemy mechs - so the first spot option is what I selected. Any of the other options are NOT Mechwarrior Scout roles, they are, in MW:O, Mechwarrior Pilot skills.

Frankly, with a few exceptions, nobody in a Light mech who fancies themselves a Scout seems to understand what being a Scout in a Mechwarrior involves. ECM is supposed to be used for making sure the Scout is not noticed for as long as possible in order to provide intel to his teammates so that they can maneuver appropriately, NOT for shielding teammates from radar and ambushing. That's what "movement to contact" is all about.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 12 May 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[Sweet Baby Pirate]

We need to distinguish between scouting and spotting.

Scouting is not going to have a huge role in this game, as long as we are playing TDM on a handful of maps that we all know pretty well.

Spotting, on the other hand, could be a good area to tweak to give light mechs some love. My suggestion would be to substantially increase the max range of LRMs, or even lose the range cap altogether.

Missile boat + ECM light should be a force to be reckoned with, but only if they communicate with each other.

[Prezimonto]

You guys are splitting hairs based on nomenclature. As I laid out in the opening thread, this is about putting in meaningful rewards for the types of activities that a light mech should be doing other than straight skirmishing. Now if you're essentially saying that these activities don't deserve rewards that's fine. But if you're saying a "scout" mech shouldn't be doing these things that's different. I'm generally defining scout mech to mean essentially anything other than rolling with the group and fighting.

I was also careful in thinking about these that they fit into the current scheme the game has adopted and be open to all, though more likely for fast and/or light mechs to pulling in rewards from these types of activities.

I actually wouldn't mind if you could flag a chosen role for yourself... "skirmish", "support fire", "brawl", "scout", "sniper" and receiving/open up a different set of scaled rewards for your playstyle... as well as help the match maker place teams that make sense into situations that make sense... but I don't see that happening, so I haven't added it.

The main goal here to talk about straighforward additions to the rewards system to help make that game about more play styles than just "shoot and the enemy".

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I like the first spotted bonus, but it should have a threshold (for instance, the first player to get target info on an enemy gets the credit). This will stop spam-targeting for free money and encourage people to get useful data when they pick up a contact.

Aside from that, Conquest needs xp and cbill rewards when you are in a box as its ownership state changes. Spotters already get a spotting assist credit, which does pay quite well, but it does nothing except with LRMs. Maybe if the spotting assist were added to long-range shots (say, over 1 km, since that's the limit of boosted sensor range) it might be better.

Assault capturing could use some boosted rewards, maybe with a capture win being more valuable as more of your team dies.

[Prezimonto]

Levi, I think the intent when I was writing this was that first spot bonus had to meet several conditions:
1) achieve a lock(may need tag/narc/ppc)
2) gather target info(probably need tag/narc, or several ppc hits)
3) be in range of at least one fellow mech's sensors so that information gets conveyed to another team mate in game.

[Appogee]

Tonight I dedicated a few games to playing scout/flanker in a very fast medium Mech... actually my favourite way to play.

In all cases, I earned less than a third the CBills and XP that I typically earn playing as a Heavy or Assault.

This indicates to me that there may presently be insufficient rewards for the scouting/flanking kind of role, relative to other roles.

[Das Wudone]

after reading a bit more here i came up with another idea. what about a "stay hidden while spotting" & "achieve targetting data" bonus? if u think about it most light mechs nowadays just go into the fray or just go around to check where the enemy is (then rapidly clicking R to signal their location) while very few actually try to spot or scout out holding on that target getting data off the enemy. naturally this bonus should only be exclusive to those playing the scout role only.

[Prezimonto]

I think staying hidden being required would favor ECM too heavily. I'd prefer to come up with ideas that are general (anyone can earn them) but which favor non-damaging roles in a match (ie mostly favor fast lights and mediums)