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Torso Mounted Weapons Convergence


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#1 Odins Fist

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:47 AM

As far as fixed "TORSO" weapons are concerned, they should have a fixed range at which they converge "PERIOD".

As far as I know -->(correct me if i'm wrong)<--, torso weapons in Mechwarrior do not have actuators that can slightly adjust the point of impact on said weapons when an enemy mech is targeted. Also, wouldn't that require a slght targeting delay to adjust for range..??

An old set of examples is the P-47 ThunderBolt, and P-51 Mustang, they had multiple .50 cal macheguns that could be configured to pin point damage at a certain range, these could "NOT" be adjusted in flight, so the pilot had to expect different results at different ranges. In other words, past that range, weapons projectile crosses paths (I saw this in early closed beta with PPCs remember), and if inside/before that range weapons projectile impact would be spread.

Now, assuming MechWarrior torso mounted weapons act the same way, how should it be approached..??
Simple, you have a fixed range at which weapons converge (torso only, excluding missiles).
Problem solved, unless there are invisible torso actuators.

Please discuss.

Edited by Odins Fist, 08 May 2013 - 10:28 AM.


#2 Odins Fist

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:44 AM

Hmmmm, no getting flamed..?? Weird...

#3 Zyllos

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:56 AM

Original Idea:
This is something I have discussed for a long time now. If you want to see any of my discussions, just check "My Posts" in my "Forum Profile".

Individual Convergence:
My original discussion was based on the idea that players aimed for LT/RT because the armor difference between LT/RT and LA/RA was not enough, thus taking off both locations when a torso section was removed was just more efficient. Especially when you can hit those locations on larger mechs pretty consistantly.

So, I had the idea that to place more emphasis on the ability to converge fire with arm mounted weapons, that all individual weapons (all locations, including arms) only fired straight ahead. But arms physically aimed at the convergence point of where the pilot aimed, thus arm weapons converged. Torso mounted weapons, while protected by more armor, do not converge their weaponry onto a single point, but instead only slightly converged onto a matrix projection of the mech's torso locations that is approximately 20% smaller which is essentially making all weapons angled towards the Torso crosshair by 20% from the straight ahead position.

What this was to achieve was more spreading of weapon fire, regardless of how the weapons were fired (alpha or group/chain), and place an emphasis on the converging utility of arms. This would spark more interest of players to aim for arms, considering it easier to aim damage onto a location of the players choice where torso weapons would be MUCH harder to get to land on a specific point.

But one problem I foresee with this change is that some mechs would be affected in no way by this change compared to now. The Jagermech is a great example. The arms is the major point of provided damage, and with no change in how they converge, would have the same relative power now while almost all other mechs would reduce in pin-point damage capability.

New Idea:
On attempting to fix this problem, I have had some ideas but none of them really felt "good" or actually worked, in theory. So, I thought about trying to adopt a compromise between a cone-of-fire and reduced convergence idea.

Cone-of-Fire without Individual Convergence:
Keep the same suggestion above about individual weapon convergence (or the lack thereof) but implement a cone-of-fire for ballistic (and ballistic-like) weaponry. On top of this, introduce a hardpoint size limit to keep mechs within their intended role.

This idea was to keep the original intent of more emphasis on arm convergence but balance weapons which place all their damage onto a single point when it strikes a location. Then to keep mechs that can boat, to stay as boats, and those mechs which were not boats, not to be able to boat.

The above changes would fix the situation of a Jagermech because it utilizes ballistic weapons, which utilize a cone-of-fire. But mechs that can converge many hitscan weapons (Stalker), are actually not that bad because you can react to laser fire due to the 1.0s beam duration. Even if 4 Large Lasers are hitting onto a single point, some mild torso twisting and movement will lead to more spreading. The other 2 possible mounted Large Lasers would hit different locations than the arms (due to no individual weapon convergence).

The cone-of-fire should be minimal and based on 4 different rates, none, small, medium, and large. The only way to achieve no cone-of-fire is to not be moving. A small cone-of-fire is achieved by moving between 0 to 50% throttle. A medium cone-of-fire is achieved by moving between 51 to 75% throttle. Large cone-of-fire is achieved by moving 76%+ or ascending/decending in the air.

None and small cone-of-fire would lead to at least 50% of the shots hitting a single location on a Medium sized mech. A medium cone-of-fire would lead to 25% of the shots hitting a single location on a Medium sized mech. A large cone-of-fire would lead to <10% of the shots hitting a single location on a Medium sized mech.

Supporting Ideas:
But to make the above ideas realized and balanced correctly, there would also have to be other changes. Some of these supporting ideas came from the community.

Reserve/Main Heatbar:
I especially liked the idea that the additional +heat capacity from heatsinks is actually it's own bar, next to the current heat bar. The main heat bar would always be 30, while the additional bar is based on the dissipation rate of heatsinks within 10s.

For example, 10 base DHS would have the base 30 main heat bar and an additional bar equal to 20. That additional bar would constantly replenish as long it is not full. The main bar would also constantly deplete if it is not empty. Anytime you fire a weapon that utilizes heat, it is used it from the additional bar first. If that bar is empty, it is used up in the main bar. As the main bar increases, heat penalties are introduced.

For each heat penalty threshold that is met, that penalty will stay on the mech until the main bar is completely reduced to 0%. Shutting down would remove the penalties (as it does now) but if you turned your mech back on during any of that time and you still have some in your main heat bar, you will go back to receiving the penalties.

This allows players to slow their RoF down into a 10s period and never receive any penalties what so ever. But if you fire at a faster rate, you might deplete the reserve bar and start introducing heat into the main bar. If you notice you are doing this, you could, just wait a few seconds for the reserver bar to fill back up so you can shoot again without introducing any heat to the main bar.

Sized Hardpoints:
This is another suggestion that I think would really help diversify the game a lot. It would also add more legitimicy to some mechs (HBK-4G vs HBK-4H). Adding a Large/Medium/Small quantifier along with TAG/NARC quantifiers.

Weapon Balance Changes:
Just some number changes to various weapons. I personally have an extensive list of value tweaks for almost every single weapon in the game. Should be able to find it somewhere among the posts I have.




These are just some ramblings and suggestions I have been asking the community and PGI for a while, or have seen put up by the community.

#4 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:23 PM

View PostOdins Fist, on 08 May 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

As far as I know -->(correct me if i'm wrong)<--, torso weapons in Mechwarrior do not have actuators that can slightly adjust the point of impact on said weapons when an enemy mech is targeted. Also, wouldn't that require a slght targeting delay to adjust for range..??


I do recall seeing posted evidence to the contrary r.e. Mechwarrior/Battletech torso mounted weapons having dynamic convergence. I'll edit or reply once/if I've dug it out.

Your point about the targeting delay is valid however - there have been repeated fluff quotes on the forums indicating that Mechwarriors need to lock on to achieve accurate (or possibly any, but let's not go there) weapons fire. This could be fairly easily (this is important, people keep wanting to suggest improvements that are major re-writes or huge overhauls - they will not happen at this stage, concentrate on the achievable) implemented by hooking convergence to the target's distance, with majorly increased convergence speed for arm mounts. Then simply have weapons fired without convergence-lock converge to their optimal range.

I'd personally advise simply hooking it to target lock, not implementing a full locking processes as per the LRM/SSRM, it's easy enough to break hostile lock in this by maneuvering around cover etc.

#5 Zyllos

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:26 PM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 08 May 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

[/size]

I do recall seeing posted evidence to the contrary r.e. Mechwarrior/Battletech torso mounted weapons having dynamic convergence. I'll edit or reply once/if I've dug it out.

Your point about the targeting delay is valid however - there have been repeated fluff quotes on the forums indicating that Mechwarriors need to lock on to achieve accurate (or possibly any, but let's not go there) weapons fire. This could be fairly easily (this is important, people keep wanting to suggest improvements that are major re-writes or huge overhauls - they will not happen at this stage, concentrate on the achievable) implemented by hooking convergence to the target's distance, with majorly increased convergence speed for arm mounts. Then simply have weapons fired without convergence-lock converge to their optimal range.

I'd personally advise simply hooking it to target lock, not implementing a full locking processes as per the LRM/SSRM, it's easy enough to break hostile lock in this by maneuvering around cover etc.


The only problem I have with a convergence speed is that how do you balance the disparity between the radians per second needed to converge effectively at close distances without breaking that convergence speed at further distances?

Unless you make it where as distance increases, convergence speed decreases, so that the time needed to converge weaponry onto a single point is the same, no matter the distance. What that means is the angular velocity increases/decreases based on the velocity needed to converge onto a point within a certain delta time for that instance.

If you did the above, that would be quite interesting. I think it *might* add enough bloom to weapon convergence to lead to more spray in damage.

A great example of this would be that the point of convergence is moving at a rate of 250m/s. That means if you aimed at a target at 0m to a target at 1km, it would take 4.0s before weapons would converge onto a single point where you aim. That would mean that a mech that moves faster than ~69.4kph directly at/away from you would have some delay in pin-point damage, thus would hit around your crosshair instead of directly on your crosshair.

#6 Odins Fist

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:54 PM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 08 May 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

[/size]
I do recall seeing posted evidence to the contrary r.e. Mechwarrior/Battletech torso mounted weapons having dynamic convergence. I'll edit or reply once/if I've dug it out.


So... Any word on whether the torso has invisible actuators..???

What does it say in the ol' BattleTech/MechWarrior books, manuals, whatevers..??

Edited by Odins Fist, 08 May 2013 - 02:54 PM.


#7 Echo6

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:08 PM

View PostOdins Fist, on 08 May 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:


So... Any word on whether the torso has invisible actuators..???

What does it say in the ol' BattleTech/MechWarrior books, manuals, whatevers..??

Hell no, there's nothing like that.

#8 Tex1013

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:15 PM

actually, following this topic triggered in intriguing idea in my head, an extension of some of the properties mentioned...

lots of people have complained about having "cones-of-fire" as an artificially substituted suckage for excellent player-based aiming, and I agree, having artificial cones of fire can be frustrating.

But, as someone mentioned, what if there was some sort of computer assisted lock-on involved with weapon convergence? Now, ALL mechs would have a lock-on system related to all weapons mounted on their torsos...initial target lock woud begin with a decent sized cone of fire (lets say about mech-sized at I dunno 400m or so), and would slowly decrease until it reached pinpoint accuracy (as mentioned in one above post)

however, tying this feature to an individual lock-on system would create several new features of gameplay...
1 - since you'd only be able to get weapon convergence on any single mech at a time, boatloads would be significantly less effective overall, which I'd be okay with
2- Long range sniper would generally be denied as well, as targets outside lock-on range would take long range fire without convergence - which would change long-range "snipers" and poptarts into a more suppression fire role, which again, I'm perfectly fine with.
(in other words, heavy ppc boaters and such would still be able to engage in dangerous long range fire, but since the pinpoint accuracy would be taken away, long range fire would be more about making certain areas of the map hazerdous to travel through, relegating heavy long range sniper builds to a more zone-control/suppression fire mode, which means they're still useful, but not quite as devastatingly so)
3 - ECM would have to be reworked to not *entirely* eliminate lock-ons, otherwise ECM would become devestatingly effective (even more so) as it could eliminate an entire team's ability to use weapon convergence

now, based on how weapon convergence is currently coded, and whatever the no-convergence would be like (ideally torso mounted weapons would be firing straight ahead), decent players should still be able to hit with many of their weapons (we could easily go with the default fixed distance convergence as mentioned above when theres no target lock), but weapons fire would be spread across a much larger area, which again, is a feature I'm entirely comfortable with.

anyway, a lot of this has already been mentioned in one form or another, but I'm liking the potential implications of a lock-on based weapon convergence system, as far as being an incentive towards more balanced builds and a very different way of picking targets to shoot at.

#9 Tex1013

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:18 PM

also, regarding torso weapon actuators and things, it's entirely possible that weapon points on mechs are gimballed or otherwise similarly have small motors available to adjust the angle of any particular weapon - I can't remember reading it in a tech manual, but that was at least a decade ago when I played TT still, so...

but it would be fairly easy to do with lasers (just a little play in the lens housing and some motorized lens adjustment, I imagine), should be relatively easy to do with ballistics too (just mount the barrel in an adjustable, motor-powered housing??) - not sure how it'd work with unguided rockets (srms), and LRMS have their own homing systems, so that's moot

but anyway, with all the other black-box tech in battletech, I don't see why gimballed or otherwise position-adjustable weapons is unreasonable.

Edited by Tex1013, 08 May 2013 - 03:27 PM.


#10 Odins Fist

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:19 PM

So... Any word on whether the torso has invisible actuators..???

What does it say in the ol' BattleTech/MechWarrior books, manuals, whatevers..??

View PostEcho6, on 08 May 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Hell no, there's nothing like that.


If you are indeed correct, then the solution is more than obvious.

#11 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:48 PM

View PostOdins Fist, on 08 May 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

So... Any word on whether the torso has invisible actuators..???

What does it say in the ol' BattleTech/MechWarrior books, manuals, whatevers..??


"...That functionality falls within the existing rules with regards to firing arcs. All weapons are capable of some articulation beyond that provided by a Torso Twist..." - Paul Sjardijn

From the "Ask the Writers" subforum at Catalyst: link

"All weapons are capable of some articulation beyond that provided by a Torso Twist" makes it pretty clear that they have internal actuation and can thus converge.



View PostEcho6, on 08 May 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Hell no, there's nothing like that.

[citation needed]

See above.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 08 May 2013 - 03:49 PM.


#12 Odins Fist

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:14 PM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 08 May 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

[/size]

"...That functionality falls within the existing rules with regards to firing arcs. All weapons are capable of some articulation beyond that provided by a Torso Twist..." - Paul Sjardijn

From the "Ask the Writers" subforum at Catalyst: link

"All weapons are capable of "SOME" articulation beyond that provided by a Torso Twist"



The thread: Chin TURRET and Pintle mount discussion

I read that exchange on the link, then with that said, the "TORSO" reticle is going to have to made to move a little as well.

"That functionality falls within the existing rules with regards to firing arcs. All weapons are capable of some articulation beyond that provided by a Torso Twist"

Ok I get that part, so if that is indeed the case, then torso mounted weapons reticle must move as well...

ALSO: It does not mention how much articulation ("SOME"), and if that articulation is "on the fly", or how long targeting would take to compensate, or if it is done pre mission.

I would go searching for the info, but i'm going to leave that to the BattleTech fans.

Edited by Odins Fist, 08 May 2013 - 04:19 PM.


#13 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostOdins Fist, on 08 May 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

ALSO: It does not mention how much articulation ("SOME"), and if that articulation is "on the fly", or how long targeting would take to compensate, or if it is done pre mission.


Enough articulation to be able to shoot into the acceptable hexes. And explicitly articulation is on the fly, since he's talking about aiming restrictions independent of torso twist mid-game, precluding pre-mission adjustments being the cause.

That said, regarding further info, I doubt it's out there. These kinds of issues certainly weren't addressed by earlier Mechwarrior games to my knowledge, and I doubt they'd be mentioned in any BTech writing bar novels, which tend towards being contradictory, nonsensical or both.

Edit: It is worth noting however, that based on that thread all torso weapons have the same degree of freedom of movement as the pintle mounted ones (those being torso weapons per rules). That's basically an angle-restricted turret in the cases they're talking about so we're not talking minor adjustments. Pretty clear torso weapons have fairly wide degrees of freedom r.e. off-axis aiming and convergence.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 08 May 2013 - 04:26 PM.


#14 Odins Fist

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:45 PM

So in other words, weapons convergence can be whatever someone wants it to be... Correct..??

Edited by Odins Fist, 08 May 2013 - 04:45 PM.


#15 Echo6

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:46 PM

Citation? I think you need to prove torso weapon actuators. My cite? Every book.

#16 Pht

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:47 PM

View PostOdins Fist, on 08 May 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

As far as fixed "TORSO" weapons are concerned, they should have a fixed range at which they converge "PERIOD".

As far as I know -->(correct me if i'm wrong)<--, torso weapons in Mechwarrior do not have actuators that can slightly adjust the point of impact on said weapons when an enemy mech is targeted. Also, wouldn't that require a slght targeting delay to adjust for range..??


I'm 100% certain that the torso mounted weapons in a 'mech are capable of individual convergence.

For one thing, they can fire at anything in the front arc and don't take any "can't converge" modifier, and the advanced targeting computer actually also encompasses hardware mounted to any weapon connected to it to make said weapon converge better/be more stable.

However, this question has come up so much, I think I'll go ask the proper authorities on the topic.

#17 Odins Fist

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:53 PM

View PostPht, on 08 May 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I'm 100% certain that the torso mounted weapons in a 'mech are capable of individual convergence.


Could that cause accidental shooting of arms off of your own Mech..?? LOL

Edited by Odins Fist, 08 May 2013 - 04:55 PM.


#18 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:57 PM

Basing an argument about torso weapon convergence on whether there is any specific mention in lore about the existence of gear (simple hydraulic screws would suffice) to adjust the alignment of weapons is like making an argument about armor based on whether there's a specific mention in lore about how many bolts hold on the knee-cap plate of an Atlas.

It's stupid.

They can. It works. You're not actually building a mech, so you don't need every little technical spec.

Learn to suspend disbelief or give up on playing fantasy/sci-fi games.

#19 Echo6

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:57 PM

I don't buy this. I think some tech with a wrench has to set the convergence; it's for damned sure not automated.

#20 Pht

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:59 PM

Question posted to the people who know:

http://bg.battletech...ic,29328.0.html

Just waiting on them to answer.





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