69 replies to this topic

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

Glythe, on 09 May 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

1. The poptart meta is completely and utterly destroyed (PPC nerf and JJ accuracy nerf should do it).

2. Brawler weapons are the most feared but limited due to their very short range.

3. Missiles are back to being useful and feared (needing AMS) but not 2-3 solvo killers.

4. Elo is gone and it's back to just straight random MM (let the new accounts play together however)

5. ECM is balanced per team with a maximum differential of 1 (but a game will not start with one team having ECM and the other team having no ECM).

you must be a trash player because ppcs and jjs arent actually that strong, there is nothing that can jj and boat enough ppcs to be usefull other than that 733p which is trash cause its a highlander and so if you would play a more strategic game and think before running into the open,dying and bitching on the forums you would be fine.
and ecm should be returned to the TT/canon version cause even with one per game its OP as **** nullifying missiles.

[subgenius]

So you're frustrated about people who yell at cappers? Sure, I agree that's lame. But how does that have any bearing on boating? I've stopped caps in atlases many times when we were out of fast mechs, so you can't really say that an assault chassi is incapable of that role if needed. It's not like a boat can't waddle over and do something about a cap if they are so inclined. And if they're that slow and they're unlucky enough to be on an uncoordinated team? Then yeah, it's loss time baby.

Still... bloat? I don't get it.

Dude, stop editing things into your posts, this is getting confusing!

[JudgeDeathCZ]

...they hire more or better ppl to balance teams.

I can w8 for new content and for bug repairs but why the hell I have to w8 for dmg/speed/whatever changes on LRMs when nerf was here in 3 days?And it was nerf to the ground which made ECM practicaly useless unless enemy use streaks bcuz no1 use LRMs anymore and again it is only in light vs light fight bcuz even 6 streaks on streakcat doing so low dmg which make them practicaly useless against anything bigger than CDA.

And you ppls think 60 alpha from 6PPC Stalker is too much?Yeah w8 for UAC20s or for gausszilla...

[JudgeDeathCZ]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 09 May 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

you must be a trash player because ppcs and jjs arent actually that strong, there is nothing that can jj and boat enough ppcs to be usefull other than that 733p which is trash cause its a highlander and so if you would play a more strategic game and think before running into the open,dying and bitching on the forums you would be fine.
and ecm should be returned to the TT/canon version cause even with one per game its OP as **** nullifying missiles.

If you wanna play more strategic play then you should switch to conquest.
I play it a lot nowadays bcuz I am XPing up Commandos and I prefer it over assault even in heavier chasis like HGN or JM6 bcuz conquest is not about camping with 6 jumpsnipers on one base.
Maybe it is bcuz I just hate nowadays assault meta .

[Syllogy]

Neverfar, on 09 May 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

I've seen that one posted here before, but the problem is it can easily be applied to advocate for either side of the current metagame. Is it chess to sit around and ppc boat? Is it chess to run and cap a base, avoiding the ppcs boats? I don't know! Maybe we should email the maker of the comic and ask him?

The point of the comic is that someone is trying to tell someone else how the game should be played. That individual has never played chess, sucks at chess, and when he loses at chess, demands that the rules change because they aren't "balanced."

That is pretty easy to apply to this thread.

Edited by Syllogy, 10 May 2013 - 06:28 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

Syllogy, on 10 May 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

The point of the comic is that someone is trying to tell someone else how the game should be played. That individual has never played chess, sucks at chess, and when he loses at chess, demands that the rules change because they aren't "balanced."

That is pretty easy to apply to this thread.

Eh, cut 'em some slack.

I'm just a White Knighting fanboi apologist, afterall

[Nicholas Carlyle]

daemur, on 10 May 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

It's like you are in my mind...

daemur

That's nice, but number 4 and 5 are both wrong.

ELO is still bad due to weight matching issues.

And ECM is not being nerfed. BAP is being improved. If ECM was being nerfed, we'd actually be able to create a better more balanced Information Warfare pillar.

And did they officially announce number 1?

The rest of it is taking so damn long it's hard for people to feel encouraged by it.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 10 May 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Syllogy, on 09 May 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Uh...

• Poptart Meta is being combatted with a Jumpjet Screen Shake, but there is no need to gimp PPCs.
  
• Brawler Weapons are still being worked on, but should be balanced, not "the most feared"
  
• Missiles are getting a series of changes with the next 2 patches
  
• Elo is proving to be much better at balancing games than random MM.
  
• ECM is getting nerfed into oblivion in the next patch. There is no reason to balance it per team.

I agree with everything but 4.
Elo system can't work properely in game like this, because it was designed for something completely different.. And it does not work, at least no better than purely random matchmaking.

[Glythe]

Neverfar, on 10 May 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

We're not playing chess with identitical pieces here. What we're playing is a game that offers and advertises "pick your piece" but there are certainly inferior piece choices.

Inferior choices.... so If this game were fair there would be no inferior pieces. Ok so we can't have that so the inferior pieces need to be weighted down so they count less. Oh wait that would be broken and everyone would play the now "OP' underrated pieces.

Elo works for chess because it is even.... Elo sucks for a game like this. The Elo system they introduced created scenarios where you had 20/25 games being a total blowout. That's a pretty fair indication the system is a failure.

[Chavette]

JJ accuracy nerf... still here? They wont nerf it and there is a good reason.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Chavette, on 12 May 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

JJ accuracy nerf... still here? They wont nerf it and there is a good reason.

What's the good reason?

[Syllogy]

Neverfar, on 10 May 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

It's easy to apply here, yes, but an incorrect distortion of the issue.

We're not playing chess with identitical pieces here. What we're playing is a game that offers and advertises "pick your piece" but there are certainly inferior piece choices.

So if you really want to use a stick figure comic and pretend it applies here, it would only really apply if this was a special houseruled version of chess where the guy with more than one Queen wins. It's the other guy's problem for liking the Rook more, so learn2play to him.

No, it applies without any distortion at all. The comic illustrates the mindset of an individual that believes he knows how play the game. When he is beaten at the game, he insists that the problem is not in how he played, but that the game needs to be fixed.

Instead of learning how to play the game better, he insists that certain pieces are under/overpowered.

You are trying to tell people how to fix a game when you have no experience in Game Design on a professional level.

If I am wrong, please, rattle off the names of a few games where you are credited as part of the Design and Development team.

Edited by Syllogy, 12 May 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[Keifomofutu]

Syllogy, on 12 May 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

No, it applies without any distortion at all. The comic illustrates the mindset of an individual that believes he knows how play the game. When he is beaten at the game, he insists that the problem is not in how he played, but that the game needs to be fixed.

Instead of learning how to play the game better, he insists that certain pieces are under/overpowered.

You are trying to tell people how to fix a game when you have no experience in Game Design on a professional level.

If I am wrong, please, rattle off the names of a few games where you are credited as part of the Design and Development team.

The trouble with the chess analogy is if MWO anything goes class rules applied in chess then everybody would have 16 queens on the board. That would be "playing to win" essentially.

To pull the analogy further people would probably find 16 queen chess pretty boring. Which is similar to the current meta problem.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 12 May 2013 - 08:05 AM.

[Farpenoodle]

The webcomic doesn't actually have anything to do with chess. Or weren't you paying attention? It has to do with the attitudes of people who think they are experts at game balance.

People have put forward legitimate counters that they personally have had success with involving light and medium mechs to the current sniper problem. But you blow them off because they require skill while sniping doesn't. Guess what? Just because they require more "skill" doesn't make them any less valid tactics. In this sense, LRN2PLY is pretty valid.

A lot of the same people also think things should be looked at. And apparently they are being looked at. Imagine that?

[Keifomofutu]

Farpenoodle, on 12 May 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

The webcomic doesn't actually have anything to do with chess. Or weren't you paying attention? It has to do with the attitudes of people who think they are experts at game balance.

People have put forward legitimate counters that they personally have had success with involving light and medium mechs to the current sniper problem. But you blow them off because they require skill while sniping doesn't. Guess what? Just because they require more "skill" doesn't make them any less valid tactics. In this sense, LRN2PLY is pretty valid.

A lot of the same people also think things should be looked at. And apparently they are being looked at. Imagine that?

Except is has a lot to do with specifically chess. Chess is perfectly symmetrical. Meaning there are no "best" builds and no stronger or weaker (edit)teams. Everything is actually balanced. MWO has both of these things. Current Meta for mediums and lights is like taking knights and bishops against a stacked team of all queens.

Also just so you know the definition of OP isn't invincible as snipers certainly aren't. But if you need more skill or luck than them to "counter" them then they are overpowered. If they weren't you would only need an equal amount of skill and luck to beat them.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 12 May 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Farpenoodle]

Chess is merely an example. It could literally be about any other flipping game on the planet and still be valid. But if you really want to get into it.

Nothing is stopping anyone in the game from fielding whatever the heck they want. In theory you could easily field mirrors of builds on each side and it'd technically be "balanced" yes? That's still not the point of the comic.

The example given in the comic is a knight. The new player thinks knights should be played in a certain way, then when the way he thinks they should be played has been shattered he now goes on to complain about how they're too weak.

So we could draw a comparison between the knight in the example and mediums in the game currently. People got used to playing mediums in a certain way. Ballistic HSR goes in and now suddenly it's possible to reasonably one shot a medium with certain mech configurations. Now all of a sudden the forums are awash with people crying about how mediums are useless when they really aren't.

They just have to be played in a different way. It may be a non-obvious way to most people but it works. While I do believe in a game like this concessions should be made to people of lower skill levels just because they can't make it work doesn't mean it's useless or the game is completely unbalanced as people claim.

[Keifomofutu]

Farpenoodle, on 12 May 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Chess is merely an example. It could literally be about any other flipping game on the planet and still be valid. But if you really want to get into it.

Nothing is stopping anyone in the game from fielding whatever the heck they want. In theory you could easily field mirrors of builds on each side and it'd technically be "balanced" yes? That's still not the point of the comic.

The example given in the comic is a knight. The new player thinks knights should be played in a certain way, then when the way he thinks they should be played has been shattered he now goes on to complain about how they're too weak.

So we could draw a comparison between the knight in the example and mediums in the game currently. People got used to playing mediums in a certain way. Ballistic HSR goes in and now suddenly it's possible to reasonably one shot a medium with certain mech configurations. Now all of a sudden the forums are awash with people crying about how mediums are useless when they really aren't.

They just have to be played in a different way. It may be a non-obvious way to most people but it works. While I do believe in a game like this concessions should be made to people of lower skill levels just because they can't make it work doesn't mean it's useless or the game is completely unbalanced as people claim.

The analogy doesn't work for MWO. In 99% of cases you'd be better off bringing another queen over a knight. That's the difference.

[Farpenoodle]

Which still has nothing to do with the point of the comic. But whatever. I never thought I'd actually be debating this comic with anyone even though I've gotten, "this game is not chess" a few times in other games. And doing so reminds me of why I rarely forum warrior anymore. I only recently started posting here because the recent restructure made it less a cry fest.

Taking nothing but PPC stalkers or highlanders isn't going to guarantee you a win in this game. A properly played mixed force composition still has a reasonable chance to beat a sniper team. The main reason people lose to them is because people try to fight them on their terms.

[Syllogy]

Neverfar, on 12 May 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

You need to learn not to play with knives that have two edges.

You're pulling the bogus "what are YOUR credentials" card to try to shoot down my opinion. Yet, by doing that, you leave yourself wide open for me to ask "well, what are YOURS?"

I didn't think so. Being just fine with how things are is no more valid than disliking some things and asking for change. In fact, by falling back to an out-of-context (I stand by that) little web comic, you're showing you have little to fall back on but an elaborate "it's fine L2P". Childish at best, and laughable considering you have exactly zero protection against your own "your opinion is invalid because you are not a game developer" attack.

Since you like taking things out of context so much, I can ignore that webcomic and invoke something that's actually a bit more in context: how many games have game-breaking exploit mechanics in them? Not just "overused" or "unbalanced" like the ppc bloat boats here. I'm talking exploits. The people there pull the same "it's fine L2P if you dont like it, use the same exploit" to justify everything from currency duping to ganking in non-pvp zones to all sorts of horrendous activity.

And unlike your little webcomic, that is much more relevant. You may be pleased and content with how things are, but it's very immature to dismiss people you've deluded yourself into believing are less "skilled™" because they're not happy using the same cheap mechanic you are.

TL;DR version: take your own advice, tough guy. Stop pretending your opinion is more valid than mine.

This is the part I like best.

Neverfar, on 12 May 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

You're pulling the bogus "what are YOUR credentials" card to try to shoot down my opinion. Yet, by doing that, you leave yourself wide open for me to ask "well, what are YOURS?"

I didn't think so.

You are trying to ask me to respond in the same message that you are trying to berate me in. Do you have any idea how ridiculous this looks?

You have mistakenly tried to extrapolate what people are telling you for quite some time. Instead of trying to insinuate that you are intellectually superior to everyone on this forum, maybe you should take a step back and listen to some old advice: "A fool among the elders should hold his peace; No one knows how little he understands if he keeps silent."

[topgun505]

It is generally accepted in marketing as a rule that for every unhappy customer experience ... that customer in turn goes and tells 20 other friends and associates about their experience.

So it is not ONE person that is getting discouraged in the game ... that very well has the potential to snowball. What if there is a guy who is part of a gaming group and he's the first one to try MWO ... and the first 10 games he gets cored by a PPC-Bloat-boat or popper in the first minute of the game?

Is he likely to stay with the game? Probably not.

But. More importantly. He will report his experience to the rest of his game group.

Guess how many of them will not even attempt to come give it a try after listening to his story?

This game obviously won't appeal to everyone ... however when the balance is as bad as it is currently this is certainly NOT going to help bring in fresh blood and it will have a heck of a time just keeping the people it has. This all doesn't bode well for the long term viability of the game.

Neverfar, on 09 May 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

I mentioned on a previous thread that I invited a few Battletech-savvy players into this game. All but one have quit by now, and of those that quit, all but one of the quitters quit after the PPC spam began.

The one that didn't fully quit said he's waiting a few weeks to see if he can walk out of the spawn point in River City without getting cored in 1-2 volleys (he's one of those poor wretched souls who chose a Medium mech, a Centurion in particular). I can't say he's particially "good" or Skilled™, but you can only drive off a few thousand people like that until we have a problem.

The game will be good again when new and relatively new players have a reason to log in, to stay engaged and interested.