23 replies to this topic

[Weztside]

Don't listen to the people on these forums whining and complaining about PPC's. I am personally having a blast with the current meta. I realize I am only one person amongst many, but I don't think my view is uncommon considering the amount of people out there using and having success with PPC/Gauss builds. All the people who are complaining will be complaining about something else a month from now. You'll never make them happy. Besides, I have a sneaking suspicion that the people who hate the current sniping meta are simply really bad shots themselves and don't want to admit it or they just don't know how to adapt to the constantly changing meta. Whatever the reason may be i'm having a blast in my 3 PPC 1 Gauss Highlander 732. The satisfaction I get from placing alpha after alpha can't be found in any other game. Keep up the good work and I will continue to throw money at you like I have been. Oh, please come out with more custom paint skins like Buccaneer!!!!!!

[Donnie Silveray]

Your missing of the point is almost beyond facepalm worthy..

The whining and complaining about PPC Gauss builds and sniping has nothing to do with skill or aiming. It's an overarching trend that players realize the PPC is just plain superior. And you're one of them. This is not ParticleProjectorWarrior Online. This is MechWarrior. A part of the Battletech universe. Lyran Atlai did not march into battle boating PPCs. Fed Suns didn't drop Jagermech arm cannons in favor of PPCs. They had their own builds. To ignore everything in the game universe in favor of one weapon system is foolhardy and stupidity. The current meta is broken, and virtually everyone knows it. The state of balancing is an utter disaster, I shudder to think how much worse it can get if PGI believes in people like you.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Just wait for the next patch. People will start crying (it's "Achieved with CryEngine" for a reason) about Jenners and streaks.

I have spoken.

[Coralld]

Donnie Silveray, on 09 May 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Your missing of the point is almost beyond facepalm worthy..

The whining and complaining about PPC Gauss builds and sniping has nothing to do with skill or aiming. It's an overarching trend that players realize the PPC is just plain superior. And you're one of them. This is not ParticleProjectorWarrior Online. This is MechWarrior. A part of the Battletech universe. Lyran Atlai did not march into battle boating PPCs. Fed Suns didn't drop Jagermech arm cannons in favor of PPCs. They had their own builds. To ignore everything in the game universe in favor of one weapon system is foolhardy and stupidity. The current meta is broken, and virtually everyone knows it. The state of balancing is an utter disaster, I shudder to think how much worse it can get if PGI believes in people like you.

Couldn't agree more. PPCs is overpowered at this point in time, and a good start would be to roll back some of the PPC buffs, or at least a few tweeks. One of the main reason PPC and Gauss combo is so prevalent is because both reach the target at the same time sense they have the same speed. What I suggest is to roll back the PPCs projectile speed back to where it was before the buff now that HSR has been implemented. Another thing, bump the PPCs heat up by 1 point. And while we are at it, reduce the LLs damage by 1 point as well.
These suggestions will not fix the problem but at least they will help and be steps in the right direction. What we really need is greater heat penalties and or have stacking penalties for the heavy energy weapons, LLs and PPC. Also reworking the heat scale because currently its far to forgiving for MASSIVE heat monsters which is a big problem.
I know some of the issues is due to the auto convergence but there really is no way around that and to even think that PGI will do something about is a wast of time as they will not do it, nor do they have the skills to pull it off. So we have to work with what we got.

[Oinkage]

I've noticed that when I inspect my weapon stats on the site that if I divide (total damage from ERPPC)/(total hits with ERPPC) I get a number greater than 10. I was under the impression that the ERPPC had a max damage potential of 10 per hit. This is the only weapon I notice this on. Is this by design? I have been lax on keeping up with all of the buffs to ERPPCs. Did they buff ERPPC damage?

[Kin3ticX]

Dear PGI,

The game is awesome right now. I really like it when there is no variety. It makes it easier to use the mechlab when the no brainer thing to do is put as many PPC's as I can. PPC's make me good at this game.

Your Biggest FAN

Herp Derp

Edited by Kin3ticX, 09 May 2013 - 12:51 PM.

[Coralld]

Oinkage, on 09 May 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

I've noticed that when I inspect my weapon stats on the site that if I divide (total damage from ERPPC)/(total hits with ERPPC) I get a number greater than 10. I was under the impression that the ERPPC had a max damage potential of 10 per hit. This is the only weapon I notice this on. Is this by design? I have been lax on keeping up with all of the buffs to ERPPCs. Did they buff ERPPC damage?

I don't know, last time I checked they do the same damage as regular PPCs. However, a friend of mine who I was playing with this morning said that he was fighting against a mech with just one ER PPC and it nearly cored his Atlas in one shot and his Atlas center torso armor is maxed. This didn't happen in one game, but in almost every game. But, to be honest, I am not sure whats going on with PPCs, they are so jacked up right now.

[Ghost_19Hz]

They may be overpowered. But then again... what's my other long range option besides gauss/PPC? Oh yeah, FaceTheEnemyStandOutOfCover AC/2's, or LOLRMS.....

[Villz]

Every1 who weighs on the PPC debate fails to identify the real problem with PPC's. The reason the PPC is such an effective weapon is its the best weapon system in game to realise converting a mechs total heat into damage in the shortest period of time. Having a 3second recycle rate is the issue. Personally i think that a 200m/s reduction to the speed of the projectile to make long range sniping more skillful and adding alonger recycle rate by a second would be a nice small adjustment. Perhaps they even need a longer recycle rate of 5 seconds to compensate for the fact they have unlimited ammo.

And as for addressing drop snipers being so dam effective a slight change like making heat not decay whilst jumpjets are active would be a small fix that would slow down the amount of long range damage being dealt out by drop snipers without making them redundant.

Edited by Villz, 09 May 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[Rhent]

Villz, on 09 May 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Every1 who weighs on the PPC debate fails to identify the real problem with PPC's. The reason the PPC is such an effective weapon is its the best weapon system in game to realise converting a mechs total heat into damage in the shortest period of time. Having a 3second recycle rate is the issue. Personally i think that a 200m/s reduction to the speed of the projectile to make long range sniping more skillful and adding alonger recycle rate by a second would be a nice small adjustment. Perhaps they even need a longer recycle rate of 5 seconds to compensate for the fact they have unlimited ammo.

And as for addressing drop snipers being so dam effective a slight change like making heat not decay whilst jumpjets are active would be a small fix that would slow down the amount of long range damage being dealt out by drop snipers without making them redundant.

The actual fix for PPCs will go like this:
Keep the PPC's Heat per Second rating exactly the same, but increase the cycle time to 5 seconds. I'm not doing the match now. So increase PPC's heat from 8 to 11, with a 5 second recycle. You have the exact same heat management you had before, however you have to pick and choose your shots.

For Gauss, increase its firing delay to 6.5 seconds.

Bamf, you just fixed focused fire.

[Villz]

Rhent, on 09 May 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

The actual fix for PPCs will go like this:
Keep the PPC's Heat per Second rating exactly the same, but increase the cycle time to 5 seconds. I'm not doing the match now. So increase PPC's heat from 8 to 11, with a 5 second recycle. You have the exact same heat management you had before, however you have to pick and choose your shots.

For Gauss, increase its firing delay to 6.5 seconds.

Bamf, you just fixed focused fire.

The gauss rifle definattly doesnt need nerfing..... its 18 tons worth of weapon by the time u add the 3 tons of ammo required for it to be useable and thats prior to 12v12. Your idea about heat being increased is less relevant if the weapon fires less as it allows you to close alot more distance with taking alot less damage i think if the recycle time was increased perhaps an extra point of heat could be added. Else the overnerf will just make using lasers the only option for heavy energies. Which if you have a great aim A 6LL stalker is already amazing iv done many times 1000 - 1400 damage with it. Focused fire is the reward you get with PPC's for the cost of alot more heat per damage. It just that the rewards outweigh the costs ATM and PPC's should have a place in the game over nerfing any weapon tot he point its not viable competitivly is not the answer. The closer the weapon systems are in terms of balance the greater build diversity and the less stale the game becomes. I think most people have bias because of being punished for so long now by PPC's but remember to think with your mind and not with your heart.

TLDR: Focus fire has a place in the game Sniping and Drop Sniping have a place in the game but small changes are needed to not overly nerf PPC's out of the game ala LRM's

[Weztside]

I guess when you try to say something positive you get overwhelmed by the sheer amount of people who like to *****.

[Joseph Mallan]

Weztside, on 09 May 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Don't listen to the people on these forums whining and complaining about PPC's. I am personally having a blast with the current meta. I realize I am only one person amongst many, but I don't think my view is uncommon considering the amount of people out there using and having success with PPC/Gauss builds. All the people who are complaining will be complaining about something else a month from now. You'll never make them happy. Besides, I have a sneaking suspicion that the people who hate the current sniping meta are simply really bad shots themselves and don't want to admit it or they just don't know how to adapt to the constantly changing meta. Whatever the reason may be i'm having a blast in my 3 PPC 1 Gauss Highlander 732. The satisfaction I get from placing alpha after alpha can't be found in any other game. Keep up the good work and I will continue to throw money at you like I have been. Oh, please come out with more custom paint skins like Buccaneer!!!!!!

The PPC itself is fine. It is the boating of 6 that is making people clench. And the funny thing is 6 PPCs are peeling armor like 3 did in all the other games(double armor). Hit weapons with a 1M CoF and we would have less convergence complaints.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 May 2013 - 03:22 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Neverfar, on 10 May 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

Well before this game I was quite fond of the PPC, both in concept and in actual performance, Tabletop and Mechwarrior computer games alike. Bloat-boating 4-6 of these things is a huge problem.

I find it hilarious that the very same people that throw away tabletop references as it suits them will invoke canon "boats" like the original Awesome. Which, uh, has 3 PPCs. And maybe 4 on one variant. Which is the highest fringe of extreme boating.

Personally I like the PPC in this game. I don't like 6 of them, but I shouldn't if they are being shot at me! I only reference the Awesome cause our 6 PPCs are doing the level of damage it does in all other games. Would people boat less of them if we had normal TT (old MW games also) Armor... Probably not, but as it stands I need double the weapons to inflict the same level of damage I did in the old games.

[Fate 6]

Villz, on 09 May 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Every1 who weighs on the PPC debate fails to identify the real problem with PPC's. The reason the PPC is such an effective weapon is its the best weapon system in game to realise converting a mechs total heat into damage in the shortest period of time. Having a 3second recycle rate is the issue. Personally i think that a 200m/s reduction to the speed of the projectile to make long range sniping more skillful and adding alonger recycle rate by a second would be a nice small adjustment. Perhaps they even need a longer recycle rate of 5 seconds to compensate for the fact they have unlimited ammo.

And as for addressing drop snipers being so dam effective a slight change like making heat not decay whilst jumpjets are active would be a small fix that would slow down the amount of long range damage being dealt out by drop snipers without making them redundant.

Stopping heat decay on a mech that is in the air for 4 seconds isn't going to do very much, especially when poptarts don't care about overheating. This would also have the adverse affect of hurting lighter mechs (Spiders, Jenners, Trebuchets) that use jumpjets while fighting in close range combat, and are in the air for longer (especially Spiders). Basically, that idea is garbage.

Reducing recycle time on PPCs isn't going to fix poptarts either. If you are jumping up every 8 seconds or so the recycle time is mostly irrelevant. It would only impact things like Stalkers and Atlases. I do think they need a slightly larger recharge time just to be in line with other weapons in that sense, but they need other tweaks as well.

The projectile speed is probably the most relevant fix to deal with poptarting. A slight heat increase and recycle time increase would also be warranted. I'm not entirely sure how to fix the Stalker without adverse effects on other mechs, but that might be a matter of hardpoint sizes and I'm not sure if PGI is willing to go there (although there seems to be plenty of customization in Mechwarrior Tactics despite hardpoint sizes).

EDIT: I forgot to mention there needs to be a penalty for overheating. It would suck for my hot Cent, but there's really no reason for me to not have to play around it. Nobody should be overheating in any mech without consequence.

Edited by Fate 6, 19 May 2013 - 01:12 AM.

[trollocaustic]

the silent skilljority don't complain and PPC because they know it's balanced by brutal heat, while stuff like the gauss get away with some half-assed excuse of "Ammo"

[buttmonkey]

the problem is ppcs.. for now. the underlining iussue is balance, and the fact pgi can never reach one.

thats why you get one patch where everybody boats lrms, then the following patch its srms then ppcs then whatever. the point is they to balance them right

[Lupus Aurelius]

Let's get this straight for the umpteenth time(since the same ppl are posting the same crap in a different thread)...

PPCs are not an issue, hot as hell, the 7 tons needs 4-5 tons more of heat sinks to even be viable. The proliferation is due to them actually now being useful, whereas before they were not.
Gauss is not an issue, it's fragile as hell right now, easily the most fragile weapon in the game, and when it goes, it rips that section clear off.

Neither weapon needs anything done to it atm.

Here are the real issues:
-MWO heat system and how it functions. Heat on all mechs should have a hard cap. Adding heatsinks should not add heat capability, it should only increase how quickly heat is dissipated. That way you could actually have double heatsinks that are DOUBLE HEAT SINKS, because all they would effect is heat dissipation, not total heat on the mech as well.
-Weapon placement should be limited as to the number of crits that can be used for that weapon type, as in MW4. So you may have 3 energy slots in a right torso, but only 6 crits for energy, which means 3 LLs can fit, but only 2 PPCs. Or the the 2 ballistic slots on the Catapult are 1 crit each, which means either machine guns or AC2s only.

The issue is not the individual weapon, it's the heat system and loadout system. And the above adjustments would affect everyone equally, and not just energy heavy builds.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 19 May 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[Zyllos]

Look, PPCs are not the main focus of why there are balance issues right now. The reason why everyone uses them is a manifestation of the issue. Yes, PPCs need slight tweaks (the drop in RoF is step one, the next is to just add 1 to the heat). There are several reasons why we see what we see today:

Pin Point Weapons
Incorrect Heatscale
Little/No Shutdown/Heat Scale Penalties
GECM Too Overpowering
Not Restricting Enough Hardpoints
Missiles Currently in a Bad Spot

[Fate 6]

Lupus Aurelius, on 19 May 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Let's get this straight for the umpteenth time(since the same ppl are posting the same crap in a different thread)...

PPCs are not an issue, hot as hell, the 7 tons needs 4-5 tons more of heat sinks to even be viable. The proliferation is due to them actually now being useful, whereas before they were not.
Gauss is not an issue, it's fragile as hell right now, easily the most fragile weapon in the game, and when it goes, it rips that section clear off.

Neither weapon needs anything done to it atm.

Here are the real issues:
-MWO heat system and how it functions. Heat on all mechs should have a hard cap. Adding heatsinks should not add heat capability, it should only increase how quickly heat is dissipated. That way you could actually have double heatsinks that are DOUBLE HEAT SINKS, because all they would effect is heat dissipation, not total heat on the mech as well.
-Weapon placement should be limited as to the number of crits that can be used for that weapon type, as in MW4. So you may have 3 energy slots in a right torso, but only 6 crits for energy, which means 3 LLs can fit, but only 2 PPCs. Or the the 2 ballistic slots on the Catapult are 1 crit each, which means either machine guns or AC2s only.

The issue is not the individual weapon, it's the heat system and loadout system. And the above adjustments would affect everyone equally, and not just energy heavy builds.

I agree that hardpoint sizes are necessary (although I think in the case of the K2 we need to either make it a little bigger or actually fix the damn machine gun already). I disagree a little in that the PPC is overpowered. You notice it a little less because you run larger mechs which don't get instagibbed as much. It hurts run something like my YLW, where my arm can (and does) get blown off in one alpha.

trollocaustic, on 19 May 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

the silent skilljority don't complain and PPC because they know it's balanced by brutal heat, while stuff like the gauss get away with some half-assed excuse of "Ammo"

This is why you see a lot of mechs with 2 PPCs and 1 Gauss. That build is not hot and has a huge alpha at long range.