14 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Hey everyone. I was talking about Flamers in the New Players Guide, and as you all know, they're just a bad weapon right now. Sure they inflict some heat, but they inflict more heat to you - something that sounds usable on the right build but ultimately stacks in a way it is marginally worthwhile at the very best of cases.

The problem is the Flamer weighs as much as a medium laser, while having drastically reduced range, almost no damage and poor heat transfer abilities. It's ability to blind players is honestly it's best feature, and that too is weak.

The suggestion

Flamers with advanced rules on TT can chose between heat and damage. I don't think that'd work here. Instead, I think for MW:O we should do both.

What I propose is this: The flamer be brought up as much, if not slightly more (due to the unlimited firing mechanic / vs recycle) DPS than a medium laser on top of the heat it already produces. Basically this would result in this for trade-offs:

Medium Laser - Far more range, "burst damage" (not need to continually hit the target), more accurate as it's hitscan and doesn't "burst" out of the 'mech

Flamer - Far inferior range, a need to stay on target to deliver the damage/heat and also delivers some heat to the target along with the damage

-

I don't think that'd outdate the medium laser.. at all. The medium laser would undoubtedly remain the primary 1-ton energy gun on most 'mechs. However, with this level of DPS stacked on it's already existent features, the Flamer might become a viable option for fast lights & mediums.

Either way, it'd be a debate - a trade-off - even if one weapon ultimately ends up slightly better most of the time. It'd have a niche then. I'm more than alright with niche weapons, since they do serve a purpose even if it's not a common one.

TL/DR: Up flamer damage to slightly more DPS than a medium laser (to account for cycle times), to give the flamer a use with a solid secondary characteristic of heat gain. Do not touch it's range leaving the medium laser a very good reason to exist as well.

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 May 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Dishevel]

I used to play TT, Long Long ago.
I do not care what anyone says though. If you vent from a fusion engine you should not be gaining heat!
It is stupid beyond belief. Period,

[Asmudius Heng]

Sounds solid to me.

I think flames as a one trick pony on heat is not going to make them a used weapon - just too niche. Like MGs they should be viable if not the most efficient in thier range bracket for damage but with additional effects - crit damage for MGs and added heat for flamers.

A light mech might consider taking those then as they will still do damage and they can hunt the energy boats for additional effectivness - but when caught against cool running opponents they might be at a disadvanatge and want to disengage.

so +1 from me.

In fact, any niche weapon should be looked into on a similar basis. It needs to be useful before its niche effects ... LBX i am looking at you. (my idea fr that is much higher damage under half range for a true shotgun effect + thier crit side ability)

[Corvus Antaka]

the flamer needs to add more heat to the enemy much faster while not doing so much heat by far to the user.

ideally the flamer could drive an enemy mech to 80% and keep it there with 3 flamers, 50% with 1 flamer, thus a heat heavy enemy would be unable to fire much at all and have significant troubles.

[SweetWarmIce]

Makes sense, the armour starts to melt and excess heat builds up as it has no where to go.

I don't know if it's supported by canon but what if a higher rated engine produces more heat more quickly? Or even movement modifiers like if you're standing still your Flamer has maximum output but at full throttle it has a longer ramp up time.

A sprinting light has to keep the Flamer on for a little while but a lumbering Atlas can get the full effect quickly.The short range keeps it balanced.

Edited by SweetWarmIce, 09 May 2013 - 10:13 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Yup. If you buff the FLamer, focus on the damage part - or its own heat efficiency. The heat abiliy should remain secondary, because I fear any implementation of it that could make the Flamer relevant will likely lead to new problems - like "Flamer Boats" that perma-overheat an enemy mech so that others can easily fire head shots at them, and stuff like that.

So, raise the damage. ML damage values seem reasonable, considering it requires sustained fire and not just 1 second damage bursts.

[Fonix]

what i think would be fair is the heat you generate for the flamer should be the same for you and the enemy, the only difference comes in when a piece of armour is exposed, if internals are exposed then the heat generation for the enemy should be about 50% more, while it remains the same for you. the damage can remain the same, i dont believe a flamer should do much damage, it has a specific role, which in itself increases your dps of yourself over the enemy, dont need to add to that.

if you stack flamers they should have a diminishing return effect, not sure if it has that at the moment or if you can even stack them, but each flamer added should have a reduced effect by 50% or so.

[Liege]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 May 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

... like "Flamer Boats" that perma-overheat an enemy mech so that others can easily fire head shots at them, and stuff like that...

Personally, I think this is exactly what Flamers should do. If i can get a flame onto your PPC stalker and your team let me stay there, you should suffer the penalty. Ok, maybe not shutting another mech down instantly but maintaining 80% heat so you shut down if you alpha or try to use more than one energy weapon sounds great.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 09 May 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

the flamer needs to add more heat to the enemy much faster while not doing so much heat by far to the user.

ideally the flamer could drive an enemy mech to 80% and keep it there with 3 flamers, 50% with 1 flamer, thus a heat heavy enemy would be unable to fire much at all and have significant troubles.

^^ this.

Edited by Liege, 13 May 2013 - 10:15 PM.

[Sephlock]

Reading this thread makes me feel very sad.

Has humanity really fallen so far that people can't even understand the deep, platonic essence of the flamer? Of all flame weapons?

[Dirus Nigh]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 May 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Yup. If you buff the FLamer, focus on the damage part - or its own heat efficiency. The heat abiliy should remain secondary, because I fear any implementation of it that could make the Flamer relevant will likely lead to new problems - like "Flamer Boats" that perma-overheat an enemy mech so that others can easily fire head shots at them, and stuff like that.

So, raise the damage. ML damage values seem reasonable, considering it requires sustained fire and not just 1 second damage bursts.

Battletech has a solution to the flamer spam problem. They put in a cap on how much heat a unit can take due to enemy weapons fire. The same could work for MWO. A flamer can raise the base heat of the target by 5% with a 15% cap regardless of how many flamers a mech has, or how many mechs are firing them at the target.

In addition the flamer can do a small amount of damage. Flamers should also cause heat to the user. 2% per flamer used added to the base heat of the mech.

[Sephlock]

^ They have a system like that, only dumb, and they don't want to change it because it is written in stone that they must not ever cause anyone to overheat- at most they can MAYBE bring the targets heat up to where if they alpha struck with 6 ppcs they would overheat- briefly.

[Victor Morson]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 May 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Yup. If you buff the FLamer, focus on the damage part - or its own heat efficiency. The heat abiliy should remain secondary, because I fear any implementation of it that could make the Flamer relevant will likely lead to new problems - like "Flamer Boats" that perma-overheat an enemy mech so that others can easily fire head shots at them, and stuff like that.

So, raise the damage. ML damage values seem reasonable, considering it requires sustained fire and not just 1 second damage bursts.

You really hit my fears on the head, and why I don't want to see the flamer buffed in it's heat trade-off ratio. I think as a secondary effect, it's a very interesting tool.

As far actual shutdown boats go, I'd be interested in seeing them with Inferno missiles at some point, because that is a very different - and less frustrating - delivery method for heat. But for the flamer, damage is where it needs fixing right now I think.

[Ningyo]

I vote other lol, though not a bad idea.

Ok state of the flamer for those that do not know.

Range 64m (this is hard range absolutely no dmg above this) (med laser 270/540)
dmg 0.40 (with chance of increased 14% 0.44, 8% 0.88, 3% 1.32) calculated per second (med laser 5 : 1.25/sec)
increased chance of crit (maybe used some and never saw anything that said crit in extended flaming, but hard to tell as dmg dealer)
weight 1 ton (same as medium laser)
Heat 0.60/second (for you) (Medium Laser 1 <1/sec>) [note this heat while official seems wrong for the flamer it produces way more]
Heat dmg 0.20/second (I believe this is about hat 2 single heat sinks removes)


OK so my suggestion leave all that exactly how it is, but add one thing

let it hit all targets within its flame cone (including mutiple parts of a mech)

based on what I have seen of its flame this would normally hit 2-4 parts of mech you are aiming at raising dmg to about 1.2/sec(Medium laser is 1.25/second)

one caveat to make this not be too powerful, have it only have 10-20% chance of hitting cockpit unless it is directly targeting it.

This would raise dmg to a at least not entirely useless amount, while also being more realistic.


btw: I do not think the OP's idea is bad, just was already thinking about this when I saw thread.

Edited by Ningyo, 14 May 2013 - 07:10 PM.

[MasterErrant]

Dishevel, on 09 May 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

I used to play TT, Long Long ago.
I do not care what anyone says though. If you vent from a fusion engine you should not be gaining heat!
It is stupid beyond belief. Period,

the wepon itself get hot channeling the plasma as well as shaping the stream.

Flamers were never worth "Anything except syarting fires and slaughtering infantry. once destrudtible terrain and fog of war come in they'll shine agan

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Flamers give up a lot in order to gain very little. They lose a huge amount of range, they lose a huge amount of damage, and what do they get for it? Continuous fire, a very minor heat bump on the target, and a fancy animation that can make it hard for the target to see if you spray near his cockpit.

PGI can take inspiration for the flamer from a number of BT sources, but the one I have in mind for this is MechCommander. The Heavy Flamer in that game is the go-to short-range burst-damage energy weapon. Heat isn't a thing in that game, so they went full-on damage for it, and it was a really nasty weapon. It was slow to fire, but did great lump-sum damage within its very short range. Sure, it lost out in the long run to more advanced weapons, but in the early game it is very hard to beat when looking for a short range damage dealer.

If PGI followed the above example, then, they'd turn the flamer into a point blank damage dealer of note. It'd still have a huge range disadvantage (far shorter than the SL, even). It'd run hot when using it (MechCommander Heavy Flamers took up a lot of payload, one assumes in large part due to the heat sinks needed to run the thing). It would splash its damage all over the target (whether by giving it an actual splash damage mechanic or by having it do discrete tics of damage to everything in its cone or what have you), so it'd take a modicum of skill to really hurt something seriously. It can keep its boosted critical damage and its heat inflicting ability, and the latter might even stand a buff of some kind. Mechanically I'd support a diminishing returns function to firing multiple flamers as far as heat transfer is concerned, and would prefer that to some kind of arbitrary cap to how much received heat a single mech can suffer (there should be a soft cap that would discourage boating too many, but it shouldn't have a hard cut-off at, say, three flamers and no more).

TLDR - Make flamers do solid damage spread out over the target, with diminishing returns to the heat the target gains when it'***** by multiple flamers. The weapon needs a pretty major boost so that anyone ever takes it for more than trolling purposes, and both damage and heat transfer mechanics should be on the table.