69 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

I hope you didn't spend too much time writing that, because trying to control the internet is unpossible.

[Joseph Mallan]

Neverfar, on 10 May 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

How many times have we heard something like this on the forums? Don't change PPCs, because lasers'll take over. Don't change LRMs because they'll be the new dominant boat. Don't change anything, apparently.

What is an MMO (yes yes I already had it argued this ISN'T an MMO but let's pretend it is and move on) that doesn't change stuff from time to time? I don't just mean additions, but also finding what's working, what isn't, what is working WAY too well and is therefore making other things by comparison not working too well.

The argument should not be IF, but WHAT, should be changed. We can certainly disagree there. I've seen lots of suggestions for how to deal with alpha-boating, from more penalties in heat scaling (devs apparently noticed enough to suggest internal damage) to outright nerfs (also apparently suggested by the devs regarding PPCs) and many many other things my sleepy head can't quickly remember now.

Change is part of a game like this. It won't hold still for anyone. Sitting in the sand and saying "I got mine, deal with it" only makes you look silly when the tide comes rolling in. You'd actually be better off, even if you liked how things are right now (and that bugs me, personally), if you instead offered your own suggestions on how to move forward instead of anchoring in one place.

This is a Gameplay Balance forum, after all. We discuss issues of balance. If there is an issue about balance, it generally means balance needs some more tweaking. No complex game has true balance between opposing sides except maybe chess (then again there's rules about whether white or black goes first if I recall), and first and foremost, this should indeed be a COMPLEX game. A lot of what is asked for here is more complexity, not less. Simply clinging to an easy unevenly powerful tactic and expecting everyone else to play along, or shut up and lose to it, is simply not plausible or savory.

So, back to the topic point: stuff will change. Stuff may seem to repeat itself, but ultimately, if we provide useful feedback (not "I got mine" or "screw those guys!"), the repeats may be better each time.

Yes, "That Guy" said it. Flame on. Or discuss. Or ignore, that's cool too.

The thing is, We have seen the cycle, and the problem is many of the weapons that do get Nerfed or Buffed do open the door for the next Whine.

PPCs for months(my time in Closed beta) were the step child weapon. Then some tweaks happened and they became good weapons. Then we players found a way to abuse that good weapon and BAM Much QQing.

Back in close Beta LRMs were just about perfect. hey needed a touch less damage (.1-.2 less) maybe. But the Brawlers were not happy! Much QQ and finding splash was awful we now have weak Missiles.

For some reason The Highlander sparked people into reverting to Poptarting! an PPC boats are the IT build. There is always something that will twist someone's jimmies!

The crying and the tone of the populace is identical to the populace of the Neverwinter forum! That game has been in open Beta for a whole week and the forums there are just as whiny as this one!

It seems every game suffers from:
Game should not charge for X
DC/AFK ruining the game
X is OP needs Nerfed.
X is UP Neds Buffed.
I didn't get X I quit!
etc
etc
etc

I can honestly say I am tired of all the complaining.

[RG Notch]

I await what will be the next OP thing after the PPC change. What's not exciting about seeing the balance swing massively again and again. I think it's hilarious the OP has used MMO changes as a good example. Every MMO I've ever been in balances like this game with an axe and not a scalpel.
Something OP, let's nerf it to oblivion so no one uses it any more with regards to what else will change in the meta. Then in a month or two nerf what is now "OP" and wait until what new thing arises. I am against change for the sake of change because all it leads is to a cycle of boom and bust. CapWarrior online, LRM warrior Online, etc. Been there done that.
I'm not saying to not change anything, I'm saying make smart incremental changes based on real metrics, not based on what people whine about on the forums.

[Evax]

Imho, the games is getting close, with the next round of changes Paul has talked about, I can see things shaping up. I would just like to encourage them not to take wild swings from one side to the other, use the test server to your advantage. On the test server, change things often, encourage people to drop in those "cheese" mechs, with said changes in effect.

RG Notch, on 10 May 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

I await what will be the next OP thing after the PPC change. What's not exciting about seeing the balance swing massively again and again. I think it's hilarious the OP has used MMO changes as a good example. Every MMO I've ever been in balances like this game with an axe and not a scalpel.
Something OP, let's nerf it to oblivion so no one uses it any more with regards to what else will change in the meta. Then in a month or two nerf what is now "OP" and wait until what new thing arises. I am against change for the sake of change because all it leads is to a cycle of boom and bust. CapWarrior online, LRM warrior Online, etc. Been there done that.
I'm not saying to not change anything, I'm saying make smart incremental changes based on real metrics, not based on what people whine about on the forums.

Small changes, watch for a patch cycle then change a bit more. I couldn't agree with RG Notch more.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 May 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

I can honestly say I am tired of all the complaining.

You're tired of the symptoms of poor game balancing - that people are discontent.
A good game designer might be able to predict how changes affect the game. If he can't predict it, he should at least be able to figure out why things turned out as they did.

You are also tired for something that is pretty much the nature of forums - content people don't often go to the forums of the game they are happy with. Some do, but a lot more people that have grievances will come to the forum, because it's the only way they have to find a way to get the grievances addressed. The only alternatives are to suck it up or leave the game behind.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 May 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

You're tired of the symptoms of poor game balancing - that people are discontent.
A good game designer might be able to predict how changes affect the game. If he can't predict it, he should at least be able to figure out why things turned out as they did.

You are also tired for something that is pretty much the nature of forums - content people don't often go to the forums of the game they are happy with. Some do, but a lot more people that have grievances will come to the forum, because it's the only way they have to find a way to get the grievances addressed. The only alternatives are to suck it up or leave the game behind.

No. I am tired of the complaining Must. Two forums two Betas. One just went Open last week, They are P&M just as hard as the players here! It isn't the game(s) its the players!

[Keifomofutu]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 May 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

No. I am tired of the complaining Must. Two forums two Betas. One just went Open last week, They are P&M just as hard as the players here! It isn't the game(s) its the players!

The day that people stop complaining is the day they stop breathing. Tune the more annoying ***** out and listen to those who actually bother putting their point across as a coherent thought.

[jeffsw6]

Neverfar, on 10 May 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

I wrote it while very sleepy. I should actually be asleep right now but I was responding on another subforum to something.

I was trying to control the internet? Whoa.

******* over-powered Ravens can control the Internet in their sleep. God, I HATE Ravens!!!11

MustrumRidcully, on 10 May 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

A good game designer might be able to predict how changes affect the game. If he can't predict it, he should at least be able to figure out why things turned out as they did.

... or at least react to unpredicted changes in the game-play quickly enough to avoid bleeding players/customers

My observation is this: PGI digs their heels in until they've cost themselves a lot of customers. Then they listen, react in a stupid way, and cause an entirely new problem.

I do not think Bryan or PGI/IGP leadership is cut out for this. Hell, they can't even listen to customers about a forum. Remember those two threads where they asked what players thought they should do about the forum re-org, and almost universally, people said they should put GD back, and moderate better? Guess what, they haven't done ****!

[Stone Profit]

Blah blah blah more ******** from the never ending spout.

[DocBach]

Stone Profit, on 10 May 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Blah blah blah more ******** from the never ending spout.

yeah i hate whiners that can't adapt to unfun, boring, unbalanced systems too and voice their opinions different than my blind defense of everything in this game... Time to go buy more MC because MWO is PGI's best game since Duke Nukem!

[-Muta-]

believe me that there is a big team of people who has done research and keep on doing it to satisfy customers. However some people hate dying all the time and simply want a bit of help.

[Stone Profit]

DocBach, on 10 May 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

yeah i hate whiners that can't adapt to unfun, boring, unbalanced systems too and voice their opinions different than my blind defense of everything in this game... Time to go buy more MC because MWO is PGI's best game since Duke Nukem!

Strange, everyone I know has plenty of fun, finds it acceptably balanced, and doesnt need to whine about it five topics a day. of course, we know how to defeat and adapt to poptarts, we play mediums, and light, and use mgs, and ac20s, and so much more. So quit whining because you cant hack it and go play fruit ninja or some crap like that where you dont need to have skills.

[Joseph Mallan]

Keifomofutu, on 10 May 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

The day that people stop complaining is the day they stop breathing. Tune the more annoying ***** out and listen to those who actually bother putting their point across as a coherent thought.

I don't complain about the games... I haven't stopped breathing.

[I am]

Stone, the least charismatic of the mwo white knights.

Hes pro, nothing is broken in his opinion, and you all are bad @ mechs if you dont agree with him.

Sum that up proper for ya stoney?

And note the white knights backing eachothers posting up. It is definately white knight day. It isnt even a patch day. Weird.

Edited by I am, 10 May 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[Soy]

People probably don't want to read this, but...

...I mean we're talking about a game with a system that is illogical, highly speculative, and completely unbalanced for reasons mostly related to the business model. To explain that last bit, imagine everything was completely balanced perfectly or that there was some sort of complete resolution in the BT universe where one house dominated and took control of everything and the BT guys said "Ok well that's it, end of the story" so to speak. Another way of imagining this would be if I said something like, 'There are no patches for chess.'

Whoever was in charge of balancing chess is surely out of a job by now.

So what I'm getting at is... do any of you other folks out there ever consider, in any serious capacity, that the whole BT thing is just basically impossible to get right? By virtue of its fundamental concepts and design?

In my more vulnerable moments I can't help but think that the stuff we're seeing in MWO right now is indicative of how systematically flawed the entire thing is.

But then I try and put that in a box in the back of my mind and just have fun with it, because the fluff and whatnot is fun and detailed.

A lot of the time I just look at this game and can't help but think PGI is basically in charge of putting square pegs in round holes. Very simple yet impractical hoops to jump through... stuff like, oh I dunno, players that move incredibly slow and yet can pin point weapons........ that's like oil and water, but here we are...

Edited by Soy, 10 May 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Stone Profit, on 10 May 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Strange, everyone I know has plenty of fun, finds it acceptably balanced, and doesnt need to whine about it five topics a day. of course, we know how to defeat and adapt to poptarts, we play mediums, and light, and use mgs, and ac20s, and so much more. So quit whining because you cant hack it and go play fruit ninja or some crap like that where you dont need to have skills.

You were good up to here!

[Stone Profit]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 May 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

You were good up to here!

Im okay with it. That part makes a good point.That being: People who cant handle this game cry "nerf it!" because they cant adapt.

Edited by Stone Profit, 10 May 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Soy]

Stone Profit, on 10 May 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Im okay with it. That part makes a good point.That being: People who cant handle this game cry "nerf it!" because they cant adapt.

I crap on 99% of the community and think there are serious fundamental issues with the game.

I know plenty of other quality players who essentially say the same thing.

So where is your point again?

Sick of this "if you complain you suck" thing. I **** on everyone I meet, and I'll complain about whatever I feel like.

[Stone Profit]

Soy, on 10 May 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

I crap on 99% of the community and think there are serious fundamental issues with the game.

I know plenty of other quality players who essentially say the same thing.

So where is your point again?

Sick of this "if you complain you suck" thing. I **** on everyone I meet, and I'll complain about whatever I feel like.

So complain. The **** do I care? I expressed my opinion and no one is going to stop me from expressing it.

Edited by Stone Profit, 10 May 2013 - 10:19 AM.

[Soy]

Well the intent of this conversation is to debate whether or not we as a community are going to actually be satisfied with changes to the game.

I don't think you complaining about complainers and suggesting they're all bad is really on point or constructive, but to each his own.

Edited by Soy, 10 May 2013 - 10:22 AM.