102 replies to this topic

[Wispsy]

They kill full armour lights pretty quickly in game too :/

[redlance]

Wispsy, on 11 May 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

They kill full armour lights pretty quickly in game too :/

Yes I tried to demonstrate the hit boxing issue that is most prevalent On the Jenner.

[Wispsy]

redlance, on 11 May 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

Yes I tried to demonstrate the hit boxing issue that is most prevalent On the Jenner.

I noticed and approved

[cSplice]

redlance, on 11 May 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

on reddit ...

Quote

I didn't watch your entire video (because it's 15 minutes long), but your "evidence" is you shooting at stationary targets from the front, which is not representative of actual gameplay. Not only does damage location depend on the speed of the target, but also it's orientation relative to you. Therefore, damage in real gameplay is greatly dependent on pilot skill. As such, and from my experience using streaks, I have to say I disagree with you and say streaks work fine.

while this is true, it is important to remember that regardless of a lack of actual combat footage it is the damage consistently hitting the CT that is the problem that i am attempting to address.

I don't think you understood my point. It's true that SSRMs aim for the CT, and they do splash to the CT when they hit surrounding areas, but this is only under "ideal" conditions much like in your video. Shooting a guided missile 100m away at a stationary target and calling it evidence of it being broken is laughable.

My thoughts on proposed "solutions":

redlance, on 11 May 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

getting rid of splash damage may actually be a great solution, in the video i describe how a low risk weapon should not offer high rewards. splash damage should be reserved for the SRM's since they are a skill shot based weapon.

When a missile hits a target it explodes, and the damage is spread around the explosion. This makes logical sense and to take it away would make a missile behave like a laser, which is unrealistic.

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 11 May 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Simple fix would be moving their lock-on points to knees and elbows.

Again, this is just unrealistic as the idea of lock is to do damage where it counts.

Chavette, on 11 May 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

They [SSRMs] should have comparable spread to normal srms with tracking,

This is actually a reasonable idea, and makes sense. It would mean the difference between SRMs and SSRMs would effectively be extra tonnage for the ability to lock on.


Overall however,

Quote

Streaks are only effective vs opponents that don't know how to aim. And even still, your ttk (time to kill) with streaks is extremely long. I would much rather fight an enemy boating streaks than any other weapon.
There are much worse things out there.

[Strum Wealh]

Krzysztof z Bagien, on 11 May 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Problem is that SSRMs aim at CT, shoulders and hips of the mech, so wherever they hit they do damage CT. Simple fix would be moving their lock-on points to knees and elbows.

Edit: Also, LRMs are supposed to target CT all the time, but due to spread some missiles also hit other components or miss entirely. And I don't really understand why devs introduced splash damage for missiles at all.

For reference purposes...
"On the SSRM direct front, another fix has gone in where the SSRMs will now use arm and leg joints as viable lock-on targets. This spreads damage out more. I'll be working with David B on testing to see if the current implementation of SSRMs along with the reduced cockpit shake and smoke reduction will be enough of a nerf to help counter the SSRM effectiveness without having to directly hit damage/cooldown/heat etc."
(Statement from Paul, made on Nov. 27, 2012)

Additionally (and also from Paul; dated March 14, 2013)...

Quote

Interesting and very thorough testing by the OP and many kudos for the in-depth write-up.
This problem has 2 levels.

First is that Testing Grounds has quite a few issues when reporting damage and the numbers you're seeing are inflated quite a bit (almost double). We will be addressing this bug and others as Testing Grounds matures over time.

Second, this does NOT eliminate the findings that S-SRMs AND SRMs are doing more damage than intended. This is not due to some top secret, behind your back weapon balancing. It has to do with splash damage, how it was first implemented and the new smaller Mechs coming out.



Here is one of the scenarios described and I've turned on the debug tools to let us see exactly what is going on in terms of hits and damage being done.

The Raven 3L has just fired 1 volley of 2 x S-SRM2 at the Commando 1B. As you can see, the amount of damage done to the Commando does not make sense. There is a total of 51.5 armor being stripped off the Commando. We've been able to reproduce this repeatedly and we're getting an average damage of 12.9 per missile. Quite a bit higher than the intended 2.5 damage per missile plus splash damage.

So what has happened to cause this? Smaller Mechs and more complex geometry than what was available when the splash damage system first went into the game. When SRM splash damage went into the game, there were a total of 4 Mechs available to the playerbase. The Jenner, Hunchback, Catapult and the Atlas. These 4 Mechs have very unique targeting silhouettes and were used to calculate the radius of splash damage per missile. Now what has happened is that the splash damage across smaller Mechs or Mechs with more complex/tighter component positioning are getting hit with more splash damage than intended.

In the image below, you can see how much overlap the damage done to the Commando has and how that it is taking significantly more splash damage than it should.



We are looking at the tuning for these hit locations/splash damage and will update as soon as possible.

SSRMs were/are already targeting the joints in the limbs, though the issue was that the splash damage implementation was such that still spread to the CT (and, as seen on the right-hand side of the last image, could still concentrate there even i the actual impact points are spread out across the limbs).

Edited by Strum Wealh, 11 May 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[Wispsy]

cSplice, on 11 May 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

I don't think you understood my point. It's true that SSRMs aim for the CT, and they do splash to the CT when they hit surrounding areas, but this is only under "ideal" conditions much like in your video. Shooting a guided missile 100m away at a stationary target and calling it evidence of it being broken is laughable.

You do realise as the missile is guided and shows it cannot miss...then it does not matter if the target is stationary if he fires from all angles which he did. Just saying, and it does happen, in all situations in game, all the time...Did you see the second video with multiple highlanders ctd with yellow/orange side torso armour? One even dying with his torso completely facing the opposite direction?

[redlance]

So where streaks are most devastating to the meta is in the light game. The Jenner is a trash mech because even when firing from the side or rear I am still doing damage to the CT. Damage spread with lasers and beam dduration makes them moot and obsolete in light mech combat because streaks core outage light mech extremely fast.

Ravens everywhere.

In a mech with a proper arms and good right and left torso layout, it is possible to mitigate this damage. Again the problem with streaks is not always about the weapons system it self, it is also about how certain mech's suffer from terribly balanced hit boxes that create a devastating disadvantage for some chassis. this is a fundamental design issue that needs to be addressed and no matter how much you balance the weapon system it still leaves certain mech's at a huge disadvantage.

the issue at hand here is multi-layered and need's to be thought fully examined.

but whatever c-splice, you didn't even watch the whole video, where i talk about all these things in STEREO SOUND and TECHNICOLOR.

Edited by redlance, 11 May 2013 - 05:47 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Of course, we could just alter AMS and make it worth taking and allow it on more mechs.

[El Bandito]

One thing I noticed is that mechs with big arms such as Trebuchet or Awesome can block incoming SSRMs easily with torso twisting and that perfectly protects the CT.(the fight can drag on for many minutes)
It is mechs with jutted out CT such as Jenner, Cicada, Dragon, Catapult and Stalkers that are too vulnerable to SSRMs even with torso twisting.

Also, hitting from the back transfers some splash to the front armor, which is silly. It is not limited to SSRMs though. Almost all big guns can do it.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 May 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[redlance]

cSplice, on 11 May 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

I don't think you understood my point. It's true that SSRMs aim for the CT, and they do splash to the CT when they hit surrounding areas, but this is only under "ideal" conditions much like in your video. Shooting a guided missile 100m away at a stationary target and calling it evidence of it being broken is laughable.

My thoughts on proposed "solutions":



When a missile hits a target it explodes, and the damage is spread around the explosion. This makes logical sense and to take it away would make a missile behave like a laser, which is unrealistic.



Again, this is just unrealistic as the idea of lock is to do damage where it counts.



This is actually a reasonable idea, and makes sense. It would mean the difference between SRMs and SSRMs would effectively be extra tonnage for the ability to lock on.


Overall however,

whether or not something is "logical" or "realistic" isn't always what is needed for GAME PLAY BALANCE, especially in a multiplayer setting. whats most important is meaningful balance that allows players with talent to flourish, and that encourages all players to improve their skills.

[armyof1]

El Bandito, on 11 May 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

One thing I noticed is that mechs with big arms such as Trebuchet or Awesome can block incoming SSRMs easily with torso twisting and that perfectly protects the CT.(the fight can drag on for many minutes)
It is mechs with jutted out CT such as Jenner, Cicada, Dragon, Catapult and Stalkers that are too vulnerable to SSRMs even with torso twisting.

Also, hitting from the back transfers some splash to the front armor, which is silly. It is not limited to SSRMs though. Almost all big guns can do it.

I think torso twist works somewhat if the ssrms are fired and track toward you in a straight line. But on the other hand if you're like 200m away and moving a bit sideways to where the ssrms are fired, then they'll curve after you and hit your CT as if your arm isn't there.

[Conraire]

No, the OP is actually right on a lot of points. The only time streaks don't concentrate dmg on CT is if your luck and turn before they hit to cause them to hit your arms. The splash dmg only masks the fact that they're only hitting CT. Same goes for LRM's since their mechanics are locked together. And I'm saying that from experience with live game play.

The CT problem is again, the reason the dmg was nerfed on all missiles. And I've said it a lot, you think the CT problem, is bad now? You don't even understand the amount of rage that will be on the forums when SSRM4's and SSRM6's come with Clan mechs.

What needs to happen with Streaks and LRM's is they need to have a tracking mechanic that homes in on the CT or primary mass of the mech. And then when they get within a certain range, they accelerate, and hit in a spread cone pattern much like the None artemis SRMs do. And do away with the splash dmg. Done right, it should prevent lights from being able to completely dodge an LRM volley. But at the same time, stop the coring problem.

[Deathlike]

Chavette, on 11 May 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

People are so used to it being broken(maybe even devs) that they forgot how srms work, and how streaks should. They should have comparable spread to normal srms with tracking, not this 100%-hitrate heavenly-super-tracking trough-youself backward-shooting ct-coring bull.

As referenced in the weapon balancing post... there must be lots of what Paul is smoking to miss this behavior.

[Kitane]

So what exactly do we want?

1) Lock time - Artemis helps with a lock time of SSRMs, allowing Artemis mechs to take shots they shouldn't.
Unintended and the promised fix is on the way.

2) Missiles are flying to the side and to the rear of the mech?
Bug? That should be impossible, the lock is lost instantly when the target gets more than 45 degrees to the side of the reticle. If it's happening, it's a bug or lag. They could make it more harsh and reduce the angle.

3) All missiles hit the target, all the time
That's is the intended design of Streaks. The best solution would be for the game to predict Streak path with restrictions placed on its turning abilities and ignore fire command if the shot will not connect.

4) All missiles are homing on CT
Each missile is homing on a random point on upper, mid and lower LT/RT/CT. That is good enough, imho.


5) Splash damage
There is a bug with splash damage calculation - which is again promised to be fixed soon™. That is most likely the main culprit behind the impression of SSRMs hitting CT all the time, splash damage just does too much damage and every missile that hits the mech is guaranteed to hit CT with at least splash damage. And it looks like splash damage is applied to front armor sections. Fixed missiles will still damage CT more than other parts of the mech, but it will take longer.


6) A possible collision detection bug allowing Streaks to glitch through mech components and hit the center?

I doubt that (see 5), but we need Missile State Rewind and the splash damage fix first, then we can look for collision issues.

[Corvus Antaka]

running my spider with even armour across LT/CT/RT 14 front and back, I too continue to notice that engagements with a raven 3L the ssrms will always hit my CT more than other areas, or so it seems. it is "possible" that the raven tends to put the Mlaser on my CT, however I still find that the ssrms feel like they seek the CT too much.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

cSplice, on 11 May 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

Again, this is just unrealistic as the idea of lock is to do damage where it counts.

So, "realisticly" they should only lock on the head.

Strum Wealh, on 11 May 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

SSRMs were/are already targeting the joints in the limbs, though the issue was that the splash damage implementation was such that still spread to the CT (and, as seen on the right-hand side of the last image, could still concentrate there even i the actual impact points are spread out across the limbs).

Check here, Thomas explained how SSRMs work. They do target CT and limb joints, but these joints are not elbows and knees. So every SSRM either hits CT and damages it directly, or very close to CT and does splash damage to it.
It looks like this (teal dots are lock-on points):

Splash damage was reduced, but not removed it entirely, so every SSRM hitting almost always damages CT.

[Chibbles]

Nerf SRMs. Nerf them more.

Edited by Chibbles, 11 May 2013 - 02:29 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Chibbles, on 11 May 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Nerf SRMs. Nerf them more.

You have grandly missed the point, and let's hope you have missed it by genuine accident! SRMs are weak atm, but Streaks are far too strong, not because of what is similar about them, but because of their differences.


The important thing to be understood from this video is that Streaks are a low-risk, low-skill, HIGH-REWARD weapon. This should never happen. Weapons that are low-risk and low-skill should always be low-reward. LRMs are a decent example. They are extremely low-skill, and low-moderate risk (unable to detonate within 180m), and because of that, they were nerfed (and should stay nerfed) to do little damage when compared to a direct fire weapon that requires pinpoint aim and line-of-sight.

Streaks are, all at once, the easiest to use and best weapons you can put on a light (assuming you have ECM to counter/future BAP so you can actually shoot ECMed mechs).

What I think should be done with Streaks: They should fill a role for people with not-so-good aim who could use a little help, but the tradeoff should be reduced damage, and they should be increased in weight, decreased in range,or something like that to make them higher risk.

It should also be noted that Redlance is a top pilot in one of the dominant competitive clans (Snow Raven) and that his insights should be taken particularly seriously because of his experience playing as one of the best against the best on a regular basis.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 11 May 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[shabowie]

Wispsy, on 11 May 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

You do realise as the missile is guided and shows it cannot miss...then it does not matter if the target is stationary if he fires from all angles which he did. Just saying, and it does happen, in all situations in game, all the time...Did you see the second video with multiple highlanders ctd with yellow/orange side torso armour? One even dying with his torso completely facing the opposite direction?

The torso facing wrong direction damage is from a couple little spots where upper and lower rear ct connects to front ct on the Jenner. The splash just has to hit near the edge and it wraps.

Some mechs even have spots on the back of the mech that count as front ct. I think the missile box on the D and K count as front torso from all angles for example, at least they used to.

In this or another splash damage related thread somebody asked if we wanted splash damage removed, I would say yes absolutely. It leads to greater randomness in damage (missiles that land near connection points for multiple hit boxes do way more damage than those that don't), it's caused nothing but problems since it's been put in and isn't worth it. Can we just admit they were a lazy work around to try to spread out the missile damage and move on to a real solution involving the missiles spreading out themselves and then doing pinpoint damage?

PEEFsmash, on 11 May 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

The important thing to be understood from this video is that Streaks are a low-risk, low-skill, HIGH-REWARD weapon. This should never happen.

Spot on. I've been beating this drum for a while, but game mechanics should be changed so that streak lock ons are harder to get, harder to keep, and rate of fire adjusted downwards. To the point where, through careful analysis of the kinds of metrics only PGI has access to, streaks are doing a good deal less damage over time on a ton per ton basis than regular SRMs in the hands of highly skilled players, slightly less in the hands of the average player, and the same or slightly more in the hands of a poor player.

Edited by shabowie, 11 May 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[bonapartist1]

Oh hey I'm glad other people are as outraged at this broken game mechanic as I am. The videos shown mirror my experience exactly, and the scourge of magically CTing SSRMs, not to mention when ssrms defy physics and reality in general, really tarnishes the MWO experience, needless to say more so if you are in a light mech. I think 1/2 of all light mechs dropping in are Raven 3L ssrm boats sometimes.

I'm personally not giving Piranha another penny until the SSRMs are fixed.