39 replies to this topic

[Phaesphoros]

I keep hearing people mention "elo brackets" or "tiers", e.g.

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You're not good enough to get stuck playing good players, who almost all run ridgers or poptarters.

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The higher up you go in the ELO ladder the more cheese you find.

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low-mid bracket still has lots of good brawling actions.

(all quotes of only one topic, there have also been whole topics about experiences in low/high elo brackets)


Though I see how "brackets" could describe elo MM for 8-mans, I don't see how it could describe MM for 4-mans or pugs:

Official description of MM
Addendum to this description
Recent adjustments to MM

My reasoning:
As far as I understand, MM for groups is based on the average group elo. That is, if you have 4 really good and 4 really bad players they could be matched to 8 moderate players. And as there's a target group average elo of 1300 (= elo of a moderate player) it's more likely to group 4 really good and 4 really bad players than 8 really good players.

Edit: Maybe this "And as there's a target group average elo of 1300" is not right, pls follow the (constructive) discussion. Still waiting on official feedback

Note the elo distribution is following a gaussian function (normal distribution) - that is, there are only few players with very high and very low elo. E.g. if we only have 8 high-elo players currently waiting for a match, those have to be split into two separate groups => it's easier to form groups if you try to average out a high elo with a low elo, as you then can pull from the large amount of moderate players into the team.

If you only group together players with high elo (which may be desirable for them), than there have to be groups with only low elo players (where those couldn't learn from good players in their own teams).

Similar arguments should hold for 4-mans, though it may be more likely to be matched against a group of similar elo, especially if the 4-man has an extraordinary (low/high) elo: E.g. you've a premade with very high elo, therefore to get to the target average elo, low-elo players had to be pulled into the group. But there aren't many of them, therefore your final full group will probably have a higher-than-average elo.


Question: Is there any effect that leads to elo "brackets"? I.e. do "tiers" or "brackets" describe current MM? If so, where's the mistake in my reasoning?

Edited by Phaesphoros, 13 May 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[Phaesphoros]

*bumping*, aw come on, someone has to have arguments / an opinion on this...

[Kanatta Jing]

Well I suppose that could answer some things.





Look at the middle hump here. What can be described as an ELO neutral band. If your in that band then the majority of the people you get teamed up with will also be from that band. Because there are just so many of them. They manage to support the team enough not be a detriment but they don't pull ahead enough to win games.


But if your up or low from the hump you get mirrored as MM needs two slightly better players and 3 slightly lower players to make the math work out anywhere near to zero. Abnormal players attracting abnormal players.


So there is exactly 2 ELO brackets. Normal and Abnormal. in the hump and outside of the hump.

[mike29tw]

Kanatta Jing, on 12 May 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

So there is exactly 2 ELO brackets. Normal and Abnormal. in the hump and outside of the hump.

Nonsense. It doesn't matter what kind of ELO do you have(normal or abnormal), the only thing you can make out of is that it's guaranteed to have another player as "normal" or as "abnormal" as you on the other team. Or two other players slightly less "abnormal" than you, and so on.

Either way, it's nearly impossible to tell what's your ELO based on that.

Edited by mike29tw, 12 May 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[Kanatta Jing]

mike29tw, on 12 May 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Nonsense. It doesn't matter what kind of ELO do you have(normal or abnormal), the only thing you can make out of is that it's guaranteed to have another player as "normal" or as "abnormal" as you on the other team. Or two other players slightly less "abnormal" than you, and so on.

Either way, it's nearly impossible to tell what's your ELO based on that.

But then matches would not be noticably different with different ELOs. And they are.

[mike29tw]

Kanatta Jing, on 12 May 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

But then matches would not be noticably different with different ELOs. And they are.

Are they?

Or are you just experiencing a shift of trends? a change of FoTM? I think that is the real question.

[Belorion]

It does not average anything. It tries to match up players within a tolerance level. Its not a bracket or tier but more an approximate percentile group that you get matched with.

[Fate 6]

Kanatta Jing, on 12 May 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

But then matches would not be noticably different with different ELOs. And they are.

You don't know your ELO or anyone elses. You don't know what the highest or lowest current ELO's are. Average ELO is supposed to be the same for each team. That is how the MM system implemented in this game works. And there really aren't that many people playing this game, so I don't think you really have any idea if these numbers are even that representative of a match's outcome.

Basically, anyone saying they are playing at high ELO is full of themselves because 1) they have no idea what their ELO is or how it compares to the people they are with and 2) they will be getting matched with and against lower ELO players anyway so it means nothing.

There are no ranks or tiers of players in this game. Your skill is measured in the course of a single match by whether or not you do well in that game. After that you might as well have your skill set back to zero, because you will always have to prove how good or bad you are.

[Kanatta Jing]

I do not know my ELOs. I do not presume to know what they are.

But I have two different ELOs that I regularily use. One for light mechs and one for heavy mechs.

My light matches are stuffed full of light mechs with only 3 - 5 Heavy and Assault.

My heavy matches are usually straight Assault and Heavy with 0-1 light mechs.

If this is a shift in trends then it is a shift in trends that goes away and comes back within 5 minutes.

[IceSerpent]

Belorion, on 12 May 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

It tries to match up players within a tolerance level. Its not a bracket or tier but more an approximate percentile group that you get matched with.

Not you (i.e. solo player), but the group you end up dropping with. If it tried to account for both tolerance levels of the group and the player being considered for that group, it wouldn't be so badly broken.

[Belorion]

IceSerpent, on 12 May 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Not you (i.e. solo player), but the group you end up dropping with. If it tried to account for both tolerance levels of the group and the player being considered for that group, it wouldn't be so badly broken.

If you are say 1345, and drop solo, then it will match you with and against people around 1345 if they are available. If your match takes longer then the more chance you will be matched with someone from a greater variance. It does not just grab 8 people average their elo then find another group with an average near your group.

With premades it rates the group and counts that groups rating as the elo it matches with. So if a group has an elo rated at 1345 and your solo score is 1345 then there is a good chance you will get matched up with or against them if you drop at the same time.

[HarlekinEO]

Where do you find your current ELO and how do you gain it.

If heard from ELO in my Guild. They told me that it affects matchmaking.

Also, if ELO-Matchmaking exist it would be terrible, because in MWO your results are effected by your Teammates. When I go Solo, I often play a Skirmish Role. Means flanking the enemy and drawing attention onto me. This shall help my team to get a superior number on Battle field. But thats theory. In reallity it happens often, that my Teammates died just before I could charge into battle. The result is, that my player points aint good (ELO drop?). So you can play with more scarried chickens, that frightened to fight. Especially in the current situation, where Sniper/2bl-Hit PPC/Gauss/... Mechs dominate the Battlefield and your ELO drops and drops and drops... and you wont have a chance to play with decent players.

[Belorion]

You can't find your elo. It is unpublished and PGI has stated that it will remain so.

You gain it by winning more, lose it by losing.

Edited by Belorion, 13 May 2013 - 04:02 AM.

[Kanatta Jing]

HarlekinEO, on 13 May 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

Where do you find your current ELO and how do you gain it.

You don't get to know your ELO it is a secret.

You gain ELO by winning matches. You loose ELO by loosing matches.

If you win against a higher ELO foe you earn more. If you are beaten by a higher ELO you loose less.

HarlekinEO, on 13 May 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

Also, if ELO-Matchmaking exist it would be terrible, because in MWO your results are effected by your Teammates. When I go Solo, I often play a Skirmish Role. Means flanking the enemy and drawing attention onto me. This shall help my team to get a superior number on Battle field. But thats theory. In reallity it happens often, that my Teammates died just before I could charge into battle. The result is, that my player points aint good (ELO drop?). So you can play with more scarried chickens, that frightened to fight. Especially in the current situation, where Sniper/2bl-Hit PPC/Gauss/... Mechs dominate the Battlefield and your ELO drops and drops and drops... and you wont have a chance to play with decent players.

This is probably why ELO is secret.

In theory, if everyone finds they're own correct ELO and the match maker has enough players to make a fair game then every match will be a close contest and you will feel challenged without stomping or being stomped.

[Kitane]

I also like the one aspect of MWO ELO, how it mirrors the way you play.

You pick a minmaxed cheesy FOTM, you will eventually end up playing mostly again other minmaxed cheesy FOTM builds.
You stick with entertaining but less competetive mechs and guess what...you will be in ELO bracket with high mech variability, more goofy builds, and more entertaining matches. At least until you get really, really good.

[Novakaine]

There is no ELO.
The ELO does not exist.
The ELO is a myth.
You have been warned.
FedCom MilSec.

[IceSerpent]

Belorion, on 12 May 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

If you are say 1345, and drop solo, then it will match you with and against people around 1345 if they are available. If your match takes longer then the more chance you will be matched with someone from a greater variance. It does not just grab 8 people average their elo then find another group with an average near your group.

Unfortunately, that's not how it seems to work. What happens is that there is a group with Elo around 1345 that's been sitting in the queue for a while (so their acceptable Elo range is huge) and a solo player with, let's say, 2500 Elo clicks launch button, that player is instantly assigned to that group. So, from that player's perspective, MM doesn't even try to find a suitable match for him/her.

[NinetyProof]

Kanatta Jing, on 13 May 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

In theory, if everyone finds they're own correct ELO

Very confusing statement when in context of people wanting to "know" what their ELO is. I think a better way to say this would be: "Once everyone settles into their proper ELO Ranking after 50+ games in that weight class ..."

Kitane, on 13 May 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

I also like the one aspect of MWO ELO, how it mirrors the way you play.
You pick a minmaxed cheesy FOTM, you will eventually end up playing mostly again other minmaxed cheesy FOTM builds.
You stick with entertaining but less competetive mechs and guess what...you will be in ELO bracket with high mech variability, more goofy builds, and more entertaining matches. At least until you get really, really good.

Cheesy builds don't make your "team" win or lose more. So FOTM or not, it's not really going to affect your score in the least.

IceSerpent, on 13 May 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Unfortunately, that's not how it seems to work. What happens is that there is a group with Elo around 1345 that's been sitting in the queue for a while (so their acceptable Elo range is huge) and a solo player with, let's say, 2500 Elo clicks launch button, that player is instantly assigned to that group. So, from that player's perspective, MM doesn't even try to find a suitable match for him/her.

They don't have to even have "just logged in" ... and it's not always bringing in "higher" ELO. Yes, the longer it takes to MM, the wider the ELO range is going to be ... and that's up AND down ... ie: 1345 could bet 1045 as easily as they get 1645 (300 swing either way).

So it works both ways.

Edited by NinetyProof, 13 May 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Hauser]

Phaesphoros, on 11 May 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

As far as I understand, MM for groups is based on the average group elo. That is, if you have 4 really good and 4 really bad players they could be matched to 8 moderate players. And as there's a target group average elo of 1300 (= elo of a moderate player) it's more likely to group 4 really good and 4 really bad players than 8 really good players.

No. Only once the team is assemble the match maker takes the average elo of both teams to figure out how likely they are to win or lose (which is then used to adjust our elo rank after the match).

While assembling the team the match maker starts with an elo value in mind and pulls players in that are close to it. As explained here: http://mwomercs.com/...43#entry1935843

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How does the match maker compose a teams Elo rating, is it average rating or closest to a target?

It's closest to a target value, so the match maker starts trying to make a match for an Elo of say 1300 and will pull in players to those teams closest to those values; however, as mentioned earlier within growing thresholds and those curves will be tuned. Currently it may be a bit 'sloppy' about how it's filling those buckets but over time it will be tuned to be much more precise.

We need to do this carefully over time as generally the cost of precision is time to find a match we want to slowly find a very nice balance between time to find a match and the number of matches that are correctly composed.

Edited by Hauser, 13 May 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[IceSerpent]

NinetyProof, on 13 May 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

They don't have to even have "just logged in" ... and it's not always bringing in "higher" ELO. Yes, the longer it takes to MM, the wider the ELO range is going to be ... and that's up AND down ... ie: 1345 could bet 1045 as easily as they get 1645 (300 swing either way).

So it works both ways.

The fact that it's equally broken both ways doesn't make it any less broken. It's advertised as "the longer you wait in the queue - the wider your acceptable Elo range is", but in reality it works more along the lines of "the longer someone else waits - the higher your chance of getting grouped with them", your own wait time doesn't seem to make any noticeable difference.