213 replies to this topic

[Keifomofutu]

jakucha, on 12 May 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Aside from fixing PPCs and/or heat system in general, if they buff airstrike and artillery it would help against the blobs.

I doubt they will every make those more than a trinket. Full on indirect support is the role of LRMs.

[Praehotec8]

I agree that mediums are under-represented, and something needs to change. Perhaps it's just the current meta-game, but this month, I see far more heavies and assaults than ever before. I think a speed buff would be a nice way to differentiate them from the heavies, as toe to toe a heavy still should have the firepower advantage. I do think though that the matchmaker ought to try to balance groups such that there are more mediums in each group than other weight groups (as others have suggested). I don't think that this would force people to play mediums, but I do think that if it were advantageous in terms of shorter wait times, and greater speed, more people would play them.

[Panzerman03]

Livewyr, on 12 May 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

It's not PGI or the mediums..

It's the player base. Start weening people off TDM and get them to start thinking about offense, defense, and a maneuver game.. then your medium will be important again.

Cap like a **** until they start thinking of mediums as important for defense and counter-maneuvers.

Except that in that scenario you're ALWAYS better off bringing a light. ECM lights are more mobile than mediums, better scouts than mediums, and sadly, better brawlers than mediums.

Mediums can't beat any mech they can catch (except LRM boats), and can't beat any mech that can catch them either.

[BlackBeltJones]

Inflatable Fish, on 12 May 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

By pure maths alone, a 50-ton Hunchback should only be about a third taller/wider than a 20-ton Commando. And given how beefy the chassis looks, I'd say it should be at most a quarter taller than a Commando. Right now, it's about 1,5 times its size.

I worry the Blackjack may end up being bigger than the Atlas. Mediums are too big and I fear nothing can/will be done to address this.

[YueFei]

Panzerman03, on 12 May 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Mediums can't beat any mech they can catch (except LRM boats), and can't beat any mech that can catch them either.

Well, that last part isn't exactly true. Mediums can beat light mechs, although the margin for error is slim. I've had plenty of duels with light mechs that ended with all my torso armor gone, but the light mech legged and then dead. I've also had duels where I managed to aim damn near perfectly (hey, every dog has his day) and legged the light mech in about 5 seconds and won decisively.

Of course, I've also had duels where I aimed poorly, missed the first couple of shots, riding the edge of the heat scale, and ended up losing, but even those tended to be close fought, and it's really just my screw-up.

On the other hand, smart light mech drivers will usually peel off rather than stick around and let a medium mech carve them up.

[Skadi]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 12 May 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

we really need tonnage limits, we shouldnt see more than 2 assaults in 8v8 and 3 in 12v12

Dear god, its going to take me centurys to find a match as a almost exclusive assault pilot.

[Farpenoodle]

It's true the only mech class I actually fully worry about in my mediums are lights. Because there's almost no way I can control the engagement vs them short of running to my team. Whereas I can make heavies and assaults fight on my terms. However, 1 on 1 the medium has a very good chance and I wouldn't say it's weighted specifically in anyone's favour.

Edited by Farpenoodle, 12 May 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[LowSubmarino]

I read the first ten posts here and I agree to most of it. Right now im in the raven 3l and whenever I see a medium mech that is alone I kill them in 8 out of 10 encounters.

My first mech was the centurion d and I have to say it is one of the worst mechs out there. I rarely got more than 200 dmg maximum was 300 or 400 a few times but mostly 150 - 200. It was more mobile than heavy mechs but I realized that the combination lbx + 2 (or 3? dont remember) medium lasers and lrm 10 was totally useless.

At first I thought that maybe I'm not playing the centurion right but after a week of constantly dying (and after changing the loadout multiple times) in almost every one on one (against a fresh enemy mech) i immediately sold the mech. I've played so many shooters online that I am a pretty good shot...I think, and I really tried to use the mechs mobility but I lost pretty much 90 % of all the encounters unless the players were visibly struggling to control their mechs because they had just started with mechwarrior online.

I checked the forum and asked what mech ppl are having most fun with and some ppl told me the hunchback is allright. So I got the hunchback and it sucked almost as much as the centurion. I got ***** almost as much as in the centurion even though the hunchback sp is a lot better than the centurion.

After having played for 5 months now I wouldnt recommend any new players to use medium mechs. Their firepower stands absolutely no chance at all against ppc/ac/gauss snipers. Not by a long shot. Their mobility is not really an advantage on smaller maps anyway and on larger maps such as tourmaline or peaks I can really use a light mech to good effect.

Any bad strategy of players on those maps (mostly random groups just march towards the middle/center map as if it's team death match even though you actually have to really defend your base/ or cap the enemies base which is the job of the lights) lets the lights shine in their role as super fast scouts.

Some ppl say lights got it bad too and I would have to agree again except for the raven 3l that has some nice qualities, awesome speed and for its class decent firepower. In a one on one I can take out any light mech. Spiders or commandoes dont stand any chance. jenners managed to kill me sometimes but mostly they die too. Even though i luv my raven it feels kind of weird that other light mechs dont stand a chance.

Again I can't recommend any player to play light mechs except for the raven 3l and then only when its on elite or master.

So in the light class you got at least one mech that is usefull on large maps and is good for harassing. On tourmaline and peaks I sometimes team up with good 3l pilots and even without teamspeak or anything we can dispatch any mech no matter how big if theyr too far away from the main group. Even alone you can do a lot of damage and on those maps and because of your speed you can easily disengage if they get reinforcements. Medium mechs ones again are not quite fast enough for those kind of harassing tactics plus they dont have ecm. So theyr being target as they retreat (while being slightly too slow to reatreat effectively in most cases anyway). But let's say that a good medium pilot can hold a light mech at bay as it has more armor. That's the one thing they can do. Only if they have really good aim though, cause against ecm they cant really use streaks.

But speaking of light mechs. Forest colony and river city....I really have to say that those maps are tiny tiny (rediculously) tiny maps. What's there to scout? You see the enemy as soon as you spawn on the horizon. Seriously, those maps are 1 vs 1 maps. Nothing more.

On such tiny maps small/fast mechs are obsolete. If you check out most games on those maps you will realize that 75 or 80 % of the games dont end with cap but with one or the other team dying. Im not saying that I am a fan of capping. Not at all but most good light pilots I know will use it to split the other teams forces. Once they'r split we mostly retreat and regroup with our team or defend our base fagainst light mechs.

So on huge maps you can use that speed as a quality that can manipulate the encounters of the main groups.

But mediums? Right now whenever I see a medium I know that those players are in for a tough game. If team balance is not an issue: lets say its two random groups duking it out or two premade groups then in those balanced encouters mediums are a weak choice if you want to effectively contribute. In a raven 3l you can take out centurions and hunchbacks or trebs too. In 7 out of 10 encounters I kill them. Is a little harder than to kill other light mechs but they simply lack the punch of heavies or assaults to be a big threat to a really fast and decently armed mech. And as I said. Aginast heavies or assaulty mediums also don't stand a chance.

And I dont even know how to buff them apart from punishing the massive overheating abuse. What can a centurion or hunchback do against 4 or even 6 ppcs?? I mean they cant even defeat a raven, jenner and even commandos/spiders kill them.

In a light mech, or the raven 3l, you have a chance against any mech but not in every situation. In close encounters (e.g. when defending the base against heavies or similar situations) you dont stand any chance against . On big maps (and with ecm) you can run around them attack from all directions, run on a ridge for 1 second shoot 4 ssrms and 3 lasers and vanish. You repeat that 10 - 15 times and theyr dead. In close quarter fighting or on open fields with no hills, depressions, obstacles you're also dead rather quickly.

Yet again, mediums dont have certain areas where they excel. Give me one area where they are good in. Just one. Anybody. And I will easily counter it with arguments that you won't be able to counter. Ask anybody that played for 6 - 12 months.

And I love medium mechs I think the centurion looks awesome and so does the hunchback. Their speed is pretty good but those two qualities are the only thing they got whereas speed wise they are outclassed by any light mech.

I really hope that they will make some changes to the balance especially and i cannot press this enough especially to overheating abuse.

Massive overheating simply has to be punished because then many other things will fall in place. Those 4 - 6 ppc builds wont be as effective anymore or will require masterful control to avoid exploding which should really be the punishment for somebody that is almost shutting down to then shoot 6 ppcs. *Laugh out loud* I mean come on. If a mech is so hot that all systems shut down because they shot 6 ppcs once and then they shoot again?

What should happen in that situation? Only one possible thing: mech explodes...

Edited by oneda, 12 May 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[YueFei]

The thing about medium mechs is that they can be killed/neutralized in a couple salvos from a heavy or assault mech, way before the heavy or assault breaches the heat capacity.

With heavies, that extra 30% armor and hit points translates into more than just living 30% longer or remaining combat effective 30% longer. That extra bit of hitpoints means that by the time a heavy mech has soaked a couple salvos, at least the enemy shooting at him is pegged on the heat scale, at which point the DPS goes down, and the heavy mech pilot has more time to react to change facing to protect the damaged armor panel.

It's a very similar phenomenon to the PvP in World of Warcraft during the TBC era. Prior to that, duels were lasting about 10 seconds. In order to make fights last longer, they actually didn't have to give players that much more health. Giving players just 15% more HP and only 10% damage mitigation allowed them to live three times longer in a fight, because they could at least survive the initial burst damage, after which the incoming damage would peter out.

[Pater Mors]

Being a Treb pilot I do like the OP's post and agree that the role of Mediums is very much diminished in the current game. I wouldn't go as far as to say they're useless (being that I played a bunch of matches just the other day where I scored 600+ dmg) but because of this:

Quote

1. The abundance of sniper builds and their nigh-absurd effectiveness at *any* range (point-blank er ppc/gauss rifle salvo? no problem!) means that not only do you have to plod your way through muddy hell to get into fighting range where you actually start to matter, you're still in the same danger, if not greater, of catching 40+ damage alphas to the face repeatedly when you get there, despite your supposed superior mobility. And since the snipers are almost exclusively heavies and assaults, you're outarmoured and outgunned anyway!

It does make it much harder to drive a Medium. You basically have to play as if you're running a light scout. If anyone sees you when you're in your optimum range, you're toast unless you turn and flee. I feel sorry for the slower HBK pilots.

Edited by Pater Mors, 12 May 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[jeffsw6]

If you read my comprehensive weapon balancing post, you may have noticed I suggested adjustments to Gauss Rifle ammo/ton, PPC minimum range, and ERPPC heat which would make sniper mechs fairly ineffective at short-range... as they should be!

[Sephlock]

Neverfar, on 11 May 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

No one wants to be your waterboy, your powder monkey, or your squire.

On the other hand, I felt a sense of destiny when I read this.

[Spr1ggan]

Nauht, on 11 May 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Of course not and you shouldn't rely on your teammates at all. You should be using them blatantly. Get behind that Atlas, run to cover. There is no way a medium should be taking on an atlas solo, current meta or not. In fact I'd much rather fight a sniper mech in my SP than a brawler. Brawler spec'd heavies hurt waaay more than snipers. Read the lore, you claim to be a BT fan, you should know they write about facing a heavy or assault with fear, in fact MW pilots won't try to take on a heavier weight class. Anyway put lore aside - so you're advocating that a medium SHOULD be able to take on heavy solo and come out on top? Even a brawler spec'd close range brawler? C'mon surely you're not that blinded by your rhetoric to see the balance issue there. We all know you hate the current meta but get over it. See the forest with this issue. I agree with the more experienced treb/cent drivers. The HB does need an engine upgrade but that's about it.

Actually Clanners actively seek out mechs of a heavier class as opponents.

[Profiteer]

There is nothing wrong with mediums... the problem is 8 vs 8 with no tonnage restrictions.

When each side is allowed to take 8 of anything, why wouldn't they choose the best?

If you take real life as an example: WW2 - medium tanks were the workhorses, far more of them were built than all other types combined. The Americans had the Sherman, Germany the Panzer IV, Russia the T-34. Why? because heavy tanks are expensive and time consuming to build.

You're far better off to field 3+ mediums for each one of the enemy's heavy's.

The same would be true here - imagine 24 hunchbacks vs 8 Atlas.

This is why we NEED weight limits for battles.

If you want to bring nothing but 90 ton jump sniping highlanders then you are going to be very outnumbered vs a bunch of lights/mediums.

Edited by Profiteer, 12 May 2013 - 07:48 PM.

[Panzerman03]

YueFei, on 12 May 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Well, that last part isn't exactly true. Mediums can beat light mechs, although the margin for error is slim. I've had plenty of duels with light mechs that ended with all my torso armor gone, but the light mech legged and then dead. I've also had duels where I managed to aim damn near perfectly (hey, every dog has his day) and legged the light mech in about 5 seconds and won decisively.

Of course, I've also had duels where I aimed poorly, missed the first couple of shots, riding the edge of the heat scale, and ended up losing, but even those tended to be close fought, and it's really just my screw-up.

On the other hand, smart light mech drivers will usually peel off rather than stick around and let a medium mech carve them up.

I can wreck lights in mediums. But I look at it like this: If I played a clone of myself in a Raven 3L vs Centurion 9A duel, the version of myself in the Raven would win hands-down, every time. And not because I don't know how to fight lights in a medium.

Being 50% faster, I get to dictate the range of the fight and I'll probably keep it at about 200-250m to keep that Cent's SRMs from being effective. Meanwhile my SSRMs will home on CT, and I'll probably out-gun him in lasers. He's going down, every time.

I'm a pretty good medium pilot, and I keep a KDR of better than 2 on my Centurion at what I'd guess is a high ELO (I have a very high W:L ratio). As an absolutely indifferent Raven pilot I have a KDR of over 7, because I'm always eating non-ECM lights and mediums alive.

Mediums really are hurting, although I'm hoping that BAP evolves into a piece of gear that could make them into effective light-killers.

[Roadbuster]

I agree with the OP.

Medium mechs are meant to be the workhorse and yet, for the mentioned reasons, you barely see them.
And if, against all odds, there are medium mechs in a match, they get obliterated by heavy/assault PPC/Gauss/AC20 boaters/snipers in seconds.

Medium mechs are not fast enough to be a hard target and they don't have the firepower to be a big threat to heavy/assault mechs. They only start to get effective if you run 3-4 of them in a pack. Something that's not going to happen if you pug.

[Drehl]

oneda, on 12 May 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I read the first ten posts here and I agree to most of it. Right now im in the raven 3l and whenever I see a medium mech that is alone I kill them in 8 out of 10 encounters.

My first mech was the centurion d and I have to say it is one of the worst mechs out there. I rarely got more than 200 dmg maximum was 300 or 400 a few times but mostly 150 - 200. It was more mobile than heavy mechs but I realized that the combination lbx + 2 (or 3? dont remember) medium lasers and lrm 10 was totally useless.

...

...


Some ppl say lights got it bad too and I would have to agree again except for the raven 3l that has some nice qualities, awesome speed and for its class decent firepower. In a one on one I can take out any light mech. Spiders or commandoes dont stand any chance. jenners managed to kill me sometimes but mostly they die too. Even though i luv my raven it feels kind of weird that other light mechs dont stand a chance.

The cent is a very good mech.. at least it was untill the sniper apocalypse. In this point it's just your personal taste that makes you unhappy with it . It was the mother of zombieing... now it dies nearly as fast es all the other meds.

the reason for your good performance in the 3 l is, that this thing was (and is), compared to the lights, an absolute nobrainer.
the combination of ssrms and ecm, while ssrms almost exclusively hit the front ct, gives them a very unfair advantage. in addition they had this wonky hitbox (much better now).
commandos 2d have the same.. but they are far less armored and usualy die pretty fast.

If they are going to fix the weird ssrm behavior you will be going to get ripped appart by jenners much more often (perhabs the bap change next week is already enough to end the ravens dogfight domination).


Imo the problem with mediums (and the dragon) is that one lucky hit of one of the alpha boats almost makes you utterly useless for the rest of the match.
No matter how good you are.. you just can't always avoid the enemy fire... and if almost every shot that hits you deals 25-60 dmg.. thats no fun. One lucky shot in the side torso of a dragon and it's almost out of the game.
Imo it's not about a missing role or bad tactics of med pilots.. its just the insane amount of long (and short) range and pinpoint high alpha boats that ruins the meds days.

Same for the dragon.. I'm piloting dragons an jenners most of the time.. but atm the dragon is no fun so I'm exclusively using my jenner in conquest..

[Sam Slade]

Simple Fix: Tonnage based drops

[Reptilizer]

Livewyr, on 11 May 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

you know why the medium class fails right now?

player blob mentality, heavies and assaults blob around with long range weapons and ridicule any player that thinks differently... like leaving the group.


wanna bring back mediums? start capping bases... go for the throat. they'll start thinking lighter, out they'll get bored hugging the base.

Would be cool if it works. But it does not.
I play a lot with my hunchies and the YLW. I also am not THE worst pilot out there. If i try to cap the base or hunt down the light scout thats capping ours or go scouting or do some other stuff on the "light" agenda: I just am worse than a light doing this.

1. It should be a sure thing when i go to hunt a raven or even some commando that i come out on top. That is not the case. Consider me in a hunch: It will be a looong fight, i will take way more hits than i can dish out to the fast suckers and if i do not leg em, they will even kill me in the end. Working as intended?

2. I go to scout and take some pot shots. Actually, that gets me killed quite fast. I have a hitbox that is much larger than the light mechs have. I am easily hit. Speed does not protect me like it protects lights. I do not have the armor a heavy has. I go down after a few hits from the long-range faction.

Resume: I do the job of lights much worse than i do the job in a light.

Ok, then into the brawl, hiding behind an atlas or a building. I am more agile than the heavies, right?

1. Cities are THE playground for Hunchies. I go hide with my pack, come around the corner in the back of a 5 PPC Stalker and:
- get my shot off in the back and am away before it turns, and it turns quite fast
- get a full load in my face because it also played peekabo. I die then.
I am just not agile enough to always outmaneuver the heavies and assaults and i do not have enough armor to withstand more than one alpha. If i face JJs, i usually do not even bother to shoot, since they oumaneuver me easily. I am not really comfortable in my playground anymore...

2. I go brawling behind my big friends. Well, if i would actually stay BEHIND em i might be safe, but i should contribute some, right? So i try to get a shot off in the brawl. And usually i die or get zombied BEFORE my big buddies, because everybody knows how easily mediums die to the loadouts of heavies and assaults. Again, big hitboxes, relatively low speed and low armor.

Resume: Better steer clear from the kitchen sink.

Only exception is really when playing as zombie. Headlaser hunchies and CT-only cents are obviously not considered dangerous. And while i also can pull out a heroic "i killed the fatlas with my headlaser only", in fact you are just not that dangerous anymore. Takes ages to get at someone using 1 med laser, a little faster with 2. Still less danger then a Spider...

I honestly do not know how to get out of this, but i strongly disagree with most people here that have bigger engines (especially for hunchies) as a possible solution. We have lights already for the speedy jobs. If i want to be a scout, i take a light and will do better.
Might be that more armor would be some idea, so you would last a bit longer in brawls while not carrying the firepower of a heavy.
But really, get something going that i do not feel like being sorry i didnt take my cat out every time i pilot my hunchies.

Please give mediums some gameplay relevance!

[Kitane]

As long as light mechs can abuse broken implementation of ECM+Streaks and there is no penalty for choosing heavy or assault mech over medium, medium mechs will be left behind.

The first thing PGI should do is make medium mechs significantly better money makers over other three classes, especially assaults. That would be in spirit of medium mechs being the best value for money in BT.

The second thing is fixing some currently broken mechanics which make life of medium mech a lot worse than it should be.
- Heat limit set to 30 to reduce massive alphas from heavier mechs and an increased heat dissipation to compensate
- ECM + SSRM combo. The best thing to do would be fixing ECM to stop providing immunity against Streaks and LRMs, but I doubt PGI will ever admit their mistake. Fixing Streaks to stop doing so much splash damage to CT should help (and it should be in the May 21th patch).