213 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

stjobe, on 11 May 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Yeah, the mediums are in a rough spot right now. The lights aren't all that much better off either, but they can at least justify running off to cap (and most chassis are capable of ECM as well, which helps a lot). I've pretty much exclusively run lights (Commandos and Spiders) and mediums (Centurions) since I started playing in August, so I've seen both lights and mediums get worse and worse - or rather heavies and assaults get better and better. Heavies and Assaults should *need* mediums and lights, but they don't; they're completely self-sufficient, being as effective against other heavy 'mechs as against lights, leaving lights and mediums pointless. It's a bad trend, and I don't really see how to change it without re-writing large parts of the game (the heat system), or re-introducing something many people hated; Repair and Rearm. In the BattleTech of my teens, there were supposed to be about 40% mediums, 30% lights, 20% heavies, and 10% assaults - in MWO it's the same ratios, but the order is almost reversed; it seems to me there's about 40% assaults, 30% heavies, 20% mediums, and 10% lights. I don't like it.

Ok, I do agree that the game needs to be diverse in terms of weight category but what the heck do you mean Assaults and Heavies "need" mediums and lights? If an Assault can't take on a Light mech then how are you going to justify 3-4 times more C-Bill price? Lights are suppose to scout, TAG, harass, cap, backstab and be a general annoyance, not an Assault killer.

PGI simply should increase spotting and capping rewards greatly and we will see the resurgence of lights.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 May 2013 - 02:02 AM.

[Daneiel]

The suggested weight balance is nice (surely will help to see more medium in the games ,but also will make much harder to find match) , that only will mask the problem . The root of the problem that medium are not viable at that point is lack proper c-bills sink ( aka. not profitable every one to run heavy or assault) - RnR is the solution (but not the previous joke , 100% player bill -not 75% from PGI ) , second - customization - to much freedom give enormous advantage to assault and heavies (more weight for more bigger weapons ) -> and that lead to bye bye mediums , followed by lights (they will suffer also) .
Mediums must be profitable for everyone - experience and not experience pilots , on other point heavies and assaults must be profitable only for much more experience pilots .If PGI introduce only the RnR for one patch duration (2 weeks)you will see slowly shifting the focus toward the mediums as a most played class , but before we see the full effect RnR we need it much longer people have to much c-bills at that point and they need to be spend .Also the easy access to level 2 tech must be revised - ER , pulse , ultra , LB-X (sadly its fall in that category) , G-rifle , streak , endo-steel , fero-fibro and DHS need to be much harder to gain.

P.S. Some people still see the mechs only by their weight class and that is not completely proper - in BT exept the weight class the mechs has roles not determinated by their weight - example to that is the Hunchback -> it fall in the same role as the Atlas -> juggernauts , they are typical example of the few mechs capable to mount AC/20 at that time period - and in the game for now we have only 3 chassis (i am not incude the hero mechs here) capable to have it - Hunchback 4G, Atlas(alsmost all variants) and Highlander 733C .
I am sorry for that text wall but if you read it you will get my point what must be done .

[Reptilizer]

daneiel varna, on 13 May 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

P.S. Some people still see the mechs only by their weight class and that is not completely proper - in BT exept the weight class the mechs has roles not determinated by their weight - example to that is the Hunchback -> it fall in the same role as the Atlas -> juggernauts , they are typical example of the few mechs capable to mount AC/20 at that time period - and in the game for now we have only 3 chassis (i am not incude the hero mechs here) capable to have it - Hunchback 4G, Atlas(alsmost all variants) and Highlander 733C .
I am sorry for that text wall but if you read it you will get my point what must be done .

*cough* K2 *cough*
*cough cough* Jager *cough*
*cough* Phract *cough cough cough*
*cough* Cicadas even i just realized *cough*

Gotta get me some water....


PS: Or me = stupid and you did mean in Tabletop only three variants can carry an AC20? Or that only 3 standard variants in BT have this as default?

Edited by Reptilizer, 13 May 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[Livewyr]

Reptilizer, on 13 May 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

I honestly do not know how to get out of this, but i strongly disagree with most people here that have bigger engines (especially for hunchies) as a possible solution. We have lights already for the speedy jobs. If i want to be a scout, i take a light and will do better.
Might be that more armor would be some idea, so you would last a bit longer in brawls while not carrying the firepower of a heavy.
But really, get something going that i do not feel like being sorry i didnt take my cat out every time i pilot my hunchies.

Please give mediums some gameplay relevance!

Mediums have a role, I have a whole thread about it, but the problem is that maneuver firepower (the combination of more armor and firepower than a light, and faster than a heavy) is not being used effectively.. because it's not "straightforward."

Right now people are trying to shove mediums as additions to either the light role (with more speed) or the heavy role (with more firepower and/or armor) rather than embrace their own role as a mix.

Mediums excel at:
protecting lights (providing a forward position for a friendly light mech to return to if under attack by another light)
protecting heavies/assaults from light harassers (I made a point of keeping my Cent behind a rock near our Ranged stalker and it paid in dividends when the enemy raven pack showed up and I got to save the stalker, who ended up winning that game for us with about 900 damage and 6 kills)
flanking behind enemy lines to get their attention, and leaving before the enemy can return fire. (Light's can do this, but not with nearly as much firepower.)
capturing an enemy base, and addressing any lights that return (they can deal with mediums that return, and also escape assaults that return)

Mediums shouldn't be thought of as front line brawlers, that's what we have heavies and assaults for. Mediums are more muscle for the harassment and interdiction role (H&I), and light support role.

Edited by Livewyr, 13 May 2013 - 05:16 AM.

[Daneiel]

Reptilizer, on 13 May 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

*cough* K2 *cough*
*cough cough* Jager *cough*
*cough* Phract *cough cough cough*
*cough* Cicadas even i just realized *cough*

Gotta get me some water....


PS: Or me = stupid and you did mean in Tabletop only three variants can carry an AC20? Or that only 3 standard variants in BT have this as default?

THE LORE - you missed my point with so much customization kills the idea of mech role and shifted it towards the weight class which is wrong .What will be the point to be introdused JM6-DG(when the time is come) if you can put G-rifles on JM6-S.
P.S. If i remember right the only lore mechs capable mountig 2 of these heavy weapons at that time period are 100t mechs - KingCrab(x2 AC/20 and KGC-001 -x2G-rifles) and Devastator (x2 G-rifles , x2 PPCs and 4xML).

Edited by daneiel varna, 13 May 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[Reptilizer]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Mediums have a role, I have a whole thread about it, but the problem is that maneuver firepower (the combination of more armor and firepower than a light, and faster than a heavy) is not being used effectively.. because it's not "straightforward."

Right now people are trying to shove mediums as additions to either the light role (with more speed) or the heavy role (with more firepower and/or armor) rather than embrace their own role as a mix.

Mediums excel at:
protecting lights (providing a forward position for a friendly light mech to return to if under attack by another light)
protecting heavies/assaults from light harassers (I made a point of keeping my Cent behind a rock near our Ranged stalker and it paid in dividends when the enemy raven pack showed up and I got to save the stalker, who ended up winning that game for us with about 900 damage and 6 kills)
flanking behind enemy lines to get their attention, and leaving before the enemy can return fire. (Light's can do this, but not with nearly as much firepower.)
capturing an enemy base, and addressing any lights that return (they can deal with mediums that return, and also escape assaults that return)

Mediums shouldn't be thought of as front line brawlers, that's what we have heavies and assaults for. Mediums are more muscle for the harassment and interdiction role (H&I), and light support role.

Well, it is not that i cant not follow your reasoning. My gameplay experience just differs (a lot) from yours obviously.
I also tried to give examples in which way it differs in my post.

Might be, that you are just they way better pilot (that can defend the stalker from the raven pack). I have the strong urge to run for help when i see the pack coming though...

You mention medium vs. lights in your post a couple of times and i get the impression that you see the medium in a stronger position. I do not feel that way. Pack me with a light and it always is a ride on the razor.
Mediums in my experience are just not that good in hunting lights.

I am also no good as a partner for the big ones, at least not as good as a heavy would be. Heavies can deal with lights AND with other heavies. Why bother with a medium? They are not that much more agile and you are not free in your movement to begin with: Do not cross the front of your fatlas mate when in batlle
So, hide behind cover or take the alpha in your face, because you are nearly as easy to hit as the fatlas next to you and you go down in 2 hits.
Hell, i also do it this way when piloting an assault. First kill the chewy medium off, much less hurt for me in two alphas time.

I would really like to embrace any role given, but i do not see where i shine. All this verbally summoned "versatility" embracing the mix stuff will not help me at all when in any given situation i am sub-par. Being weak in any situation is NOT a good mix. It just is weak. Give me a situation where my hunchie shines against an other mech.
Something balanced.
Something like "Yeah, i should avoid those phracts, but i will eat any number of Spiders for breakfast". I fail to have these moments.
An extreme example of this would be my streakcat. Utterly useless when ECM is around, but a light mech killing machine when ECM-free.

[stjobe]

El Bandito, on 13 May 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

Ok, I do agree that the game needs to be diverse in terms of weight category but what the heck do you mean Assaults and Heavies "need" mediums and lights? If an Assault can't take on a Light mech then how are you going to justify 3-4 times more C-Bill price? Lights are suppose to scout, TAG, harass, cap, backstab and be a general annoyance, not an Assault killer.

PGI simply should increase spotting and capping rewards greatly and we will see the resurgence of lights.

I know this isn't a particularly popular view, but to my mind a light should have an even chance of taking down an assault in an undisturbed one-on-one, all other things being equal. It should be a contest between the assault pilot's ability to leverage his advantage in armour and firepower against the light pilot's ability to leverage his speed and agility.

If this was the case, the assault would need lights and/or mediums to protect it from being outmaneuvered by the opposition's lights/mediums.

However, this isn't the case. Assaults and heavies are self-sufficient; they're as effective versus other assaults and heavies as they are against medium and lights - leaving the medium and lights without much of a purpose when the game doesn't need scouting, doesn't reward anything but damage, kills, and assists; all things that heavies and assaults excel at but medium/lights have a much harder time doing.

And while increasing rewards for spotting and capping would be a great and welcome step forward, it isn't enough to break the self-sufficiency of the heavies and assault 'mechs. For that we need something else, like a re-implemented heat system.

[Livewyr]

Reptilizer, on 13 May 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Well, it is not that i cant not follow your reasoning. My gameplay experience just differs (a lot) from yours obviously.
I also tried to give examples in which way it differs in my post.

Might be, that you are just they way better pilot (that can defend the stalker from the raven pack). I have the strong urge to run for help when i see the pack coming though...

You mention medium vs. lights in your post a couple of times and i get the impression that you see the medium in a stronger position. I do not feel that way. Pack me with a light and it always is a ride on the razor.
Mediums in my experience are just not that good in hunting lights.

I am also no good as a partner for the big ones, at least not as good as a heavy would be. Heavies can deal with lights AND with other heavies. Why bother with a medium? They are not that much more agile and you are not free in your movement to begin with: Do not cross the front of your fatlas mate when in batlle
So, hide behind cover or take the alpha in your face, because you are nearly as easy to hit as the fatlas next to you and you go down in 2 hits.
Hell, i also do it this way when piloting an assault. First kill the chewy medium off, much less hurt for me in two alphas time.

I would really like to embrace any role given, but i do not see where i shine. All this verbally summoned "versatility" embracing the mix stuff will not help me at all when in any given situation i am sub-par. Being weak in any situation is NOT a good mix. It just is weak. Give me a situation where my hunchie shines against an other mech.
Something balanced.
Something like "Yeah, i should avoid those phracts, but i will eat any number of Spiders for breakfast". I fail to have these moments.
An extreme example of this would be my streakcat. Utterly useless when ECM is around, but a light mech killing machine when ECM-free.

A hunchie can out maneuver, and is faster in about every respect, than a catapult or cataphract. (Dragon can out run it, but it's still less maneuverable...and while a Catapult can mount a massive engine and go pretty fast for a heavy, mounting that engine gives him the firepower of a medium or light, without the maneuverability.)

(The example defense against the ravens was performed with an AC20- If I could name it, it would be Ravensbane- but a gauss rifle or pulse lasers can also do the trick in the case of mediums that can't mount AC20)

[Reptilizer]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

A hunchie can out maneuver, and is faster in about every respect, than a catapult or cataphract. (Dragon can out run it, but it's still less maneuverable...and while a Catapult can mount a massive engine and go pretty fast for a heavy, mounting that engine gives him the firepower of a medium or light, without the maneuverability.)

I will not argue here and also have stated it myself: It is more agile.
This advantage in agility however does not outweigh the lack of armor and firepower when fighting a heavie.
Also the "lack" of agility does not make my phract much worse in an engagement with lights. in fact i feel way more comfortable huntig ravens in my phract.
So why not use a heavie to begin with?

As of now, maneuverability is only useful when combined with high speed and small hitboxes. Like, for example, when using lights.
A bit more speed and a bit more maneuverability for less armor and firepower OR less speed and less agility for a bigger hitbox and slightly more armor are both a bad tradeoff.

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

(The example defense against the ravens was performed with an AC20- If I could name it, it would be Ravensbane- but a gauss rifle or pulse lasers can also do the trick in the case of mediums that can't mount AC20)

The AC20 cent already has a name: YLW

[Belphagor]

BlackBeltJones, on 12 May 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

I worry the Blackjack may end up being bigger than the Atlas. Mediums are too big and I fear nothing can/will be done to address this.

I also fear that the BJ will come in at about 90% the size of a JM6. I'd rather it be about the size of a CDA, with the torso turned upward (instead of deep) with larger arms on it. If its going to be stuck being slowish- it needs to be smaller to make up for it.

I wouldn't mind seeing a few more hardpoints on mediums- at least enough extra that they have more than lights...

[Keifomofutu]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

A hunchie can out maneuver, and is faster in about every respect, than a catapult or cataphract. (Dragon can out run it, but it's still less maneuverable...and while a Catapult can mount a massive engine and go pretty fast for a heavy, mounting that engine gives him the firepower of a medium or light, without the maneuverability.)

(The example defense against the ravens was performed with an AC20- If I could name it, it would be Ravensbane- but a gauss rifle or pulse lasers can also do the trick in the case of mediums that can't mount AC20)

Barring variant specific quirks maneuverability is completely dependent on max engine size. So no that hunchback going 92 is not particularily more maneuverable than the cataphract going 86. And the dragon is actually more manuverable than the hunchback.

The last use of mediums is sorta quick zombie close range firepower. Every other role is taken. Try to cap in a 92km/h hunch or 98km/h centurion? Do you even play this game? You'll cop a ppc alpha in the back almost immediately. And if anyone goes to base to stop you there will be no running away for you. You'll either fight or die. Better hope they don't send two.

[PaintedWolf]

According to Lorethe DCMS does not even like Medium Mechs because they are considered a "poor compromise" between Light and Heavy. Different Factions place different emphasis on various weight classes.

Quote

P. 14, FM: DC-

"As recently as twenty years ago, light 'Mech lances formed the backbone of DCMS BattleMech forces... Today, the DCMS relies less on light 'Mechs, and its BattleMech assets are beginning to resemble those of other Inner Sphere militaries... most DCMS 'Mech battalions contain a variety of light, heavy, and assault lances. However, DCMS commanders still view medium BattleMechs as a poor compromise between light and heavy designs, and so DCMS forces forces contain relatively few mediums."

The initial premise that Medium Mechs are necessarily the "Workhorse" or "most common" Mechs, is flawed.

[Roadbuster]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

A hunchie can out maneuver, and is faster in about every respect, than a catapult or cataphract. (Dragon can out run it, but it's still less maneuverable...and while a Catapult can mount a massive engine and go pretty fast for a heavy, mounting that engine gives him the firepower of a medium or light, without the maneuverability.)

(The example defense against the ravens was performed with an AC20- If I could name it, it would be Ravensbane- but a gauss rifle or pulse lasers can also do the trick in the case of mediums that can't mount AC20)

No Hunchback can outmaneuver a Catapult or Dragon and barely a Cataphract.
You can equip a Catapult with 4ML and an AC20 with full armor and still go over 80kph with 280° torso twist. No Hunchback can beat that.
Trying to kill a light mech with lasers takes too long and if the light mech uses SSRMs and you don't you need luck to survive if you can't deal enough damage in a short ammount of time. Did you ever try to hit a running, jumping and twisting spider with a Gauss or AC20? I hope you have enough ammo to waste for that.

I also agree with Keifomofutu regarding capping with "fast" medium mechs.
Most heavy mechs go around 70-80kph and the real cappers go 140-150kph so you can't catch or outrun them.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

I run meds and I prefer them in most situations (though I mastered 3 CATs for a change). CN, HBK and TBT. And yes, there are not so many meds around recently, though I see at least one or two in both teams each time. That seems no big deal, but we have 4 classes, and having a couple of mechs in each class forms a balanced team of 8 mechs. So I think it's ok.
There is also a new mech factor. As soon as a new mech makes it to the market, many people grab it and go for unlocking efficiencies, so I guess after the JM and HGN boom, that flooded us with heavies and assaults, we are to face a BJ extravaganza soon, which will bring more meds to the fields. We really don't need an abundance of one class, but the system balances itself and gives us a chance to see how would battlefields look when we have more of some class. And lastly, 12vs12 will possibly give us more variety too.

[Zyllos]

The new "Lobby" mode is going to make or break Mediums in the overall scale of things.

From the little information I have seen and making some embellishments, this is what I hope PGI will do with the new drop mechanic.

You can ready up to 4 mechs totalling up to 200t. When you die, you respawn in a wave with other dead players after making a choice of the next mech to drop in.

What this will do is add a tonnage limit to the game without having to force players to play in a mech weight they don't want to or possibly even have. Who gets to play the 100t mech when you only have 500t to play with in the drop limit?

It will also allow players to respawn more times, thus give a feeling that you can out last your opponent by playing 4 50t mechs vs your opponents 2 100t mechs or two 75t mechs and one 50t mech loadouts.

And, with a respawn mechanic, this will allow players to develop tactics as the game goes on. It also satisfies the Battletech lore because you only have that one mech. Once its dead, you have to get another in your dropship.

Take the poptarter/sniper meta right now. They generally don't care about capping. They just want to get some kills. Once the balance of deaths go into their favor, they can just walk on over everything else due to hardly no resistance. But, with a respawn, they can't do this anymore. Yes, they may have destroyed the entire team, but they will respawn and come again. So the poptarters/snipers have to move to go capture the bases or sit back and lose to objectives. I don't think a team full of poptarters/snipers can win the game by kills because the number of mechs they have to destroy is a range of 16 to 32 mechs for 8v8 and 24 to 48 mechs for 12v12. There just isn't enough time, when coupled with objectives, for either side to completely annihilate the other side.

Anyway, this is my last hope on how to balance Medium mechs. They will introduce a tonnage limit to the game without forcing players to play tonnages they don't want to play on.

Edited by Zyllos, 13 May 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[Kitane]

That Dropship mode is going to be rough on c-bills, 200t of fully fitted unique mechs is going to cost a lot.

[Zyllos]

Kitane, on 13 May 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

That Dropship mode is going to be rough on c-bills, 200t of fully fitted unique mechs is going to cost a lot.

Well, that could be the usefulness of playing with trial mechs? Can't fill out all your dropship? Take some trial mechs.

[General Taskeen]

Kitane, on 13 May 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

That Dropship mode is going to be rough on c-bills, 200t of fully fitted unique mechs is going to cost a lot.

Why? I already have kitted out Mechs for every weight class and I have all the space bucks already.

Edited by General Taskeen, 13 May 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[Kitane]

Zyllos, on 13 May 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Well, that could be the usefulness of playing with trial mechs? Can't fill out all your dropship? Take some trial mechs.

That would work if all trial mechs offered were © mechs. You need a veteran to squeeze out decent performance out of a trial mech, and veterans have solid selection of mechs.

OTOH a Dropship mode restricted to stock versions would be interesting to see. It might be more fun than what we have now. You would be able to use your own mechs, but they would deploy in their stock configuration. And if you didn't have enough mechs, trials would offer a viable alternative without gimping yourself or your team.

General Taskeen, on 13 May 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Why? I already have kitted out Mechs for every weight class and I have all the space bucks already.

/facepalm

Edited by Kitane, 13 May 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

your basically saying the game is very broken, and I have to agree with you..

Like I said in a post yesterday I'm going to buy a cheap pc to run winXP on and get mech comander loaded, its the only game since TT battletech that can be considered good, and its out there on freeware license