92 replies to this topic

[Xandergod]

ECM jamming of LRMs has been a huge problem. I've had lights fight next to my A1, using me as cover. All the while, preventing me from even firing my weapons. ECM needed a counter, and i'll take this one with a smile on my face.

[DemonRaziel]

Technically, ECM had a counter (literally an ECM on a counter mode). In fact, it had 3 counters recently, including TAG and PPCs.

And while I understand the non-splattie A1s, as well as any other lock-on missiles boaters will welcome the new gimmick, I am now (once I have learned it does not work as I have thought it to work) strongly opposed to its implementation. Not because of its anti-ECM nature (mostly), but because it encourages the usage of a broken weapons system and thus puts a whole line of 'Mechs at a significant disadvantage when a SSRM-heavy build is deployed.

But I am going to remain (somewhat) calm for now, wait for the actual implementation of the new BAP, to test it in game and even if it does prove OP and game-breaking I will hope the fix/nerf/whatever will follow soon enough to resolve the issues before we get to official release. This is a beta, after all, right?

Edited by DemonRaziel, 18 May 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Xandergod]

DemonRaziel, on 17 May 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Technically, ECM had a counter (literally an ECM on a counter mode). In fact, it had 3 counters recently, including TAG and PPCs.

And while I understand the non-splattie A1s, as well as any other lock-on missiles boaters will welcome the new gimmick, I am now (once I have learned it does not work as I have thought it to work) strongly opposed to its implementation. Not because of its anti-ECM nature (mostly), but because it encourages the usage of a broken weapons system and thus puts a whole line of 'Mechs at a significant disadvantage when a SSRM-heavy build is deployed.

But I am going to remain (somewhat) calm for now, wait for the actual implementation of the new BAP, to test it in game and even if it does prove OP and game-breaking I will hope the fix/nerf/whatever will follow soon enough to resolve the issues before we get to official release. This is a beta, after all, right?

The A1 can't use TAG or PPCs. And relying on PUG lights to counter ECM is a pretty bad idea. This gives any mech regardless of hard point restriction, the ability to target ECM mechs within range. Honesty, I think this is better for light pilots then for SSRM "boaters"

[DemonRaziel]

LexLuther, on 18 May 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

The A1 can't use TAG or PPCs. And relying on PUG lights to counter ECM is a pretty bad idea. This gives any mech regardless of hard point restriction, the ability to target ECM mechs within range. Honesty, I think this is better for light pilots then for SSRM "boaters"

How is this good for light pilots in any way? Other than raising the 7-D on the 3Ls level again. For most lights though, ECM (whether it's their own or on a nearby friendly 'Mech) is their main form of protection against streaks. Streaks are pretty much an I win button against lights.

And yes, I know an A1 can't penetrate ECM on its own since it can't use ECM and has no E hardpoints. Allowing a BAP-equipped 'Mech to see trough ECM would fix it, allowing BAP to counter ECM for all friendly 'Mechs is a (needless?) upgrade to this function...

[General Taskeen]

Core Problem - Streaks do not have skill factors applied to them like previous Mech Titles, such as missile turn time and minimum turn angle.

[NRP]

I think this is only going to be bad for the 3L and 2D. The rest of us are going to feast on their tears. Seriously, you a-holes are going to suffer for the months and months of murder pack abuse. I'm so giddy with anticipation I can hardly contain my pee.

[DemonRaziel]

Oh my, ain't ya a witty one. A: My main light 'Mech is a 5D. B: My 3L, when it is not gathering dust, is equipped with standard SRMs as I consider streaks on a 3L cheese. C: 3Ls will still be able to shoot everyone in the face (read: CT) with their streaks just fine. D: Every light will get slaughtered by enemy streaks in a moment, not just the 2 streak-heavy builds and that is the main problem here.

[Kyynele]

The reason 3L and 2D are going to get hurt really bad, is because in a light vs light fight, they were the only ones capable of using streaks, and thus easily won light vs light duels even if the pilot wasn't that good. Yes, 3Ls will still be able to shoot everyone in the face with their streaks, but now Jenners, X-5 and the 'bad' Commandos and Ravens can shoot 3Ls in the face as well.

There are lots of good light pilots who will adapt just fine to the fact that you can no longer "herp derp, I has magic box, can't hit me with the weapon most effective against fast lights even though I'm prancing around right in the middle of your team", and instead play a bit smarter, pick their targets and at least stay behind the streak-loaded ones.

The rest can go play PPC poptart snipers or StreakCats or whatever will be considered most OP and broken at that time.

[FupDup]

NRP, on 18 May 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

I think this is only going to be bad for the 3L and 2D. The rest of us are going to feast on their tears. Seriously, you a-holes are going to suffer for the months and months of murder pack abuse. I'm so giddy with anticipation I can hardly contain my pee.

The 3L can just equip BAP too ya know (2D is too light)...


Anyways, this hurts every light because people will be using Streaks en masse when this update hits. ECM lights at least get missile immunity outside of 150m against BAP...but non-ECM lights like the Jenners are going to be curbstomped with an iron boot (especially because of the Jenner's oversized CT hitbox absorbing almost every Streak fired at the mech).

It's also kind of a double-standard to have disdain for certain mechs and plan to get revenge against them by using the same exact weapon systems that caused folks to disdain them in the first place....

Edited by FupDup, 18 May 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[Kyynele]

FupDup, on 18 May 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

The 3L can just equip BAP too ya know (2D is too light)...

The devs have already stated that if you have both ECM and BAP, BAP will only have the anti-ECM effect when the ECM is in counter mode. Having both doesn't give you the ability to have ECM on while countering others, in that case BAP just adds the same sensor boosts it does now.

FupDup, on 18 May 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

It's also kind of a double-standard to have disdain for certain mechs and plan to get revenge against them by using the same exact weapon systems that caused folks to disdain them in the first place....

No double-standard. The problem has been that 3L and 2D with the ECM magic have been able to use weapons that haven't been able to use against them. StreakCat will obviously be less broken, because even if it uses streaks to kill you, nothing's stopping you and everyone else from using streaks to kill it.

Edited by Kyynele, 19 May 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[FupDup]

Kyynele, on 19 May 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

No double-standard. The problem has been that 3L and 2D with the ECM magic have been able to use weapons that haven't been able to use against them. StreakCat will obviously be less broken, because even if it uses streaks to kill you, nothing's stopping you and everyone else from using streaks to kill it.

...Aaand those weapons that people haven't been able to use against them are Streaks. The reason people hate 3L's and 2D's is that those variants get to use Streaks when they can't do the same. Notice how nobody says bad things about the ECM Cicada or Spider? They don't have any missile hardpoints, that's why. Streaks being a skillless I-win button in light mech fights is the problem, all ECM does is make it so only one side can utilize this I-win button. All the BAP change will do is make it so everyone can utilize this I-win button if they're in close enough range against an ECM unit (or, against non-ECM units, 270m like normal).


Just 'cause your mech doesn't have ECM doesn't change the underlying problem of Streaks requiring no skill whatsoever to consistently damage the center torso (via either splash or a direct hit). Streaks need to be modified hit the specific component you're aiming at when the trigger is pulled (no random crap) and not have any splash damage to fix this.

Edited by FupDup, 19 May 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[DemonRaziel]

Kyynele, on 19 May 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

No double-standard. The problem has been that 3L and 2D with the ECM magic have been able to use weapons that haven't been able to use against them. StreakCat will obviously be less broken, because even if it uses streaks to kill you, nothing's stopping you and everyone else from using streaks to kill it.

While there is no doubt that the 3L and 2D (and 5D) were considered the best because of all the goodies ECM offered, the 3L and 2D had the upper hand in the fact, that they could use their broken weaponry even against other 'Mechs, by going into counter mode. Their ability to freely utilize the SSRMs against anyone they encounter (unless ECM superiority was present in the area, but that is a different issue) was what got them on top of the food chain.he

Making the I-win-button against lights more widespread and removing the lights' form of protection is, in my opinion, step in a wrong direction. The same can be said about introducing a piece of equipment that almost everyone complains about, stating it works as intended and then introducing (upgrading) another piece of equipment to almost completely invalidate the first one.

[Kyynele]

FupDup, on 19 May 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Just 'cause your mech doesn't have ECM doesn't change the underlying problem of Streaks requiring no skill whatsoever to consistently damage the center torso (via either splash or a direct hit).

You like to point out that Streaks are a skillless I-win button while defending a defense mechanism that grants you near-complete immunity to whole weapon categories without you doing absolutely anything. You don't even have to press a button.

Yeah, streaks require little skill, but with this BAP update there's now an obvious choice: you can choose streaks if your main target are lights, or you choose srms if you're hunting big game and want to do big damage. The damage streaks do is very consistent, but it's also so low you probably wouldn't want to fight Atlases with that as your main weapon. Streaks are a soft counter to lights. They don't automatically incapacitate you in any way. In fact, shooting a leg might be much more efficient than bombarding a light with Streaks. If you see a StreakCat in ANY light, you can just stay over 270m away and use even medium lasers to pick it apart. Yeah, it's a ***** that you can no longer run next to him and type 'lol' to chat while you kill your helpless victim. The balance will be better, even if you don't consider it in your favor.

I personally have all the ECM mechs in the game. All mastered except for the 2D. I believe I'm just as much on the 'losing' side as you are?

DemonRaziel, on 19 May 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Making the I-win-button against lights more widespread and removing the lights' form of protection is, in my opinion, step in a wrong direction. The same can be said about introducing a piece of equipment that almost everyone complains about, stating it works as intended and then introducing (upgrading) another piece of equipment to almost completely invalidate the first one.

The lights' form of protection is size, speed and agility. ECM is only a form of protection (as opposed to the form of protection) for a select few mechs. I agree that the whole ECM and it's counters system is messy and could be better done in some completely different way. I can even agree that this might not be a step in the right direction in that sense, but it is a short-term improvement to a situation where the majority of light variants have been severely inferior in combat because they have lacked the ability to fit an information warfare item(!)

Some lights lose their easymode. StreakCats get back their easymode. StreakCats' easymode still gets them killed against PPC+Gauss boats. It's different, but it's not the end of the world for anyone.

[FupDup]

Kyynele, on 19 May 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

You like to point out that Streaks are a skillless I-win button while defending a defense mechanism that grants you near-complete immunity to whole weapon categories without you doing absolutely anything. You don't even have to press a button.

Yeah, streaks require little skill, but with this BAP update there's now an obvious choice: you can choose streaks if your main target are lights, or you choose srms if you're hunting big game and want to do big damage. The damage streaks do is very consistent, but it's also so low you probably wouldn't want to fight Atlases with that as your main weapon. Streaks are a soft counter to lights. They don't automatically incapacitate you in any way. In fact, shooting a leg might be much more efficient than bombarding a light with Streaks. If you see a StreakCat in ANY light, you can just stay over 270m away and use even medium lasers to pick it apart. Yeah, it's a ***** that you can no longer run next to him and type 'lol' to chat while you kill your helpless victim. The balance will be better, even if you don't consider it in your favor.

I personally have all the ECM mechs in the game. All mastered except for the 2D. I believe I'm just as much on the 'losing' side as you are?

I didn't intend to defend ECM, I'm just saying that ECM alone (i.e. Spider, Cicada) doesn't cause problems--it's only when paired with missiles. I agree completely that ECM has issues of its own, but I'm just focusing in on Streaks due to the thread topic of the Streakkitty. (On a side note, ECM should just have been downgraded a little bit instead of adding BAP as a roflcounter to it). Rock-paper-scissors is boring in an action game. >_<


One OP thing countering another still leaves something OP at the end of the day, and thus we take one step forward and one step backwards. For example, people used to hate Jenners as much as they hate Ravens today, but the 3L's dominance has made people forget about that past. Sniping used to be the underdog tactic and brawling was king, but now people have forgotten this and are only posting about the current sniper meta. People have stopped complaints about the Catapult entirely ever since the nerf to SRMs, the Catapult quirks, and the addition of the Jagermech (and the sniper meta helped, too). Seeing how history has repeated itself time and time again in MWO, I wouldn't be surprised to see BAP become the new ECM in terms of how much people hate it. Sure, it might be fun at first because it's something new and exciting. But, over time, it will become stale, boring, and disdained just like all of the aforementioned examples.



Anyways, about the whole "soft counter" idea, that's quite an understatement. Lights have the advantage of speed, which in turn makes them harder to hit much of the time. Streaks bypass this completely unless the mech carrying them is seriously really slow (and thus can't turn fast enough to keep the light in its sights or chase it). You can't even spread the damage around by twisting because of the splash. If you're in a Jenner, pretty much every SSRM hit will damage your oversized CT whether it's a direct hit or through splash (this is also true for other lights but a little less severe for others than the Jenner). The damage might not be impressive against Fatlai, but lights don't exactly have that much armor and that's why SSRM are so good against them.


Another thing to remember is that not every Streak-carrier is going to be as slow (86.4 kph isn't that slow?) as a Catapult. You can't really chose the time or place of an engagement against, say, a Raven, Commando, Jenner, or Cicada X-5 (and in some cases, large-engine Trebuchets and Centurions). Nearly every mech with missile slots is going to be equipping SSRM2 a lot more often when this patch hits.

Lights also have a hard time equipping long-range weapons due to tonnage restrictions. Tickling people far outside of SSRM range with ML will result in taking a long time to do any decent damage. You can maybe sneak in a (ER)PPC or 1-2 Large Lasers, but then you're gonna have a bad time when you find an enemy you can't outrun. LRMs don't do that much damage and the number of available missile tubes/hardpoints is problematic on Jenners and Ravens. AC/2 and UAC/5 are just really heavy. I really wish we had Light PPCs...

Edited by FupDup, 19 May 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[Kyynele]

I would say that even on the 3M and 5D, ECM caused problems: they could completely shut down Streak/LRM boats by just standing next to them. This might've been one of the reasons why Splatcats were pretty much the A1 build at the time - since you couldn't even fit TAG on the A1, SRMs were the only weapon that was reliable enough to be used on the field. The BAP change will not only benefit Streak users, it also guarantees LRM users don't have to just stand there incapacitated if a light finds them. It is a good thing that now people can spend extra tons and criticals to ensure they don't have to suffer that fate. I'm not going to argue about it making sense, because it does not, but in general it will enhance the play experience for most.

I really doubt BAP will grow to be hated like ECM, because BAP doesn't really give anyone an unfair advantage over others. ECM stops people from using their weapons, BAP allows them to use their weapons. The normal state for weapons is that they can be used. Being shot at is not nice, but it is what we expect to happen in the game. No reason to get mad about that. Now, if someone stops you from using your weapons, you're quite likely to be really unhappy about that.

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Another thing to remember is that not every Streak-carrier is going to be as slow as a Catapult.You can't really chose the time or place of an engagement against, say, a Raven, Commando, Jenner, or Cicada X-5 (and in some cases, large-engine Trebuchets and Centurions). Nearly every mech with missile slots is going to be equipping SSRM2 a lot more often when this patch hits.

Frankly, I think the ones you listed should by all reason be combatwise on par with the current ECM lights. I'm ok with your sentiment that Streaks are OP and should be altered (I'm personaly fine with them though), but disagree that 4 light mechs should have a privilege to be immune to that weapon. 2D is the only one of these likely to have only Streaks, so - odds are even, use your other weapons beside that consistent damage you'll both be receiving and may the best pilot triumph.

I agree that the life of a ECM light pilot will get harder. But it won't be harder than it's now for the non-ECM lights, who will in fact benefit from this, even if the amount of Streaks on everybody increases. They'll now have an even chance instead of gimping their team if the other team brought ECMs.

Edited by Kyynele, 19 May 2013 - 03:43 PM.

[Wintersdark]

*shrugs* In the last ATD, Bryan acknowledged the problem with Streaks and said it was being worked on:

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Wispsy: At least on certain mechs (Jenner for one) SSRMs only hit the front ct, even if the mech is directly behind you you can die with full back armour. Is there any plans to change this at all considering how quickly they can kill lights right now?
A: Currently the SSRMs will randomly hit one of 8 bones on a Mech. The cluster of these bones is generally around the CT area. In addition to a large splash damage effect, and damage transfer – most of the damage is ending up on the CT, even though the missiles are actually hitting at different locations on the mech. It’s not actually a bug, rather a tuning fix to minimize splash damage. This tuning adjustment will go live in the first patch of June. Unfortunately, the fix was a tad late for the 21st patch.

So, yeah. No sense worrying about OMAHGERD STREAKS ARE BROKEN. They'll be addressed shortly after the BAP change goes live. Yeah, streaks may be a bit silly vs. lights for those two weeks, but it's not like that's a long time. We'll survive.

[FupDup]

Kyynele, on 19 May 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

I would say that even on the 3M and 5D, ECM caused problems: they could completely shut down Streak/LRM boats by just standing next to them. This might've been one of the reasons why Splatcats were pretty much the A1 build at the time - since you couldn't even fit TAG on the A1, SRMs were the only weapon that was reliable enough to be used on the field. The BAP change will not only benefit Streak users, it also guarantees LRM users don't have to just stand there incapacitated if a light finds them. It is a good thing that now people can spend extra tons and criticals to ensure they don't have to suffer that fate. I'm not going to argue about it making sense, because it does not, but in general it will enhance the play experience for most.

I really doubt BAP will grow to be hated like ECM, because BAP doesn't really give anyone an unfair advantage over others. ECM stops people from using their weapons, BAP allows them to use their weapons. The normal state for weapons is that they can be used. Being shot at is not nice, but it is what we expect to happen in the game. No reason to get mad about that. Now, if someone stops you from using your weapons, you're quite likely to be really unhappy about that.

Like I said (perhaps not clearly enough), I don't like the current state of ECM either. I just want it to work like MW4 where it reduced your radar signature (can't be detected from as far away) and only makes missiles take a little bit longer to achieve lock instead of preventing them outright.

I don't spend as much time complaining about ECM as Streaks because people aren't affected by it nearly as much these days due to the direct-fire weapon proliferation, including PPCs which just so happen to briefly disable ECM. It's still a borked item due to its hard-counter nature, but since missiles aren't the current meta the impact isn't nearly as apparent ATM. LRM boats are currently not even strong enough to do well without ECM units around these days.


BAP itself doesn't give the advantage, but it does allow people to use a different item that gives the advantage instead: Streaks. Yes, ECM users currently have the advantage and that does quite frankly suck. All this patch is going to do is flip it around. It's not the BAP alone that will be hated per se, just the combination of it and Streaks. One step forwards, one step backwards.

Kyynele, on 19 May 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Frankly, I think the ones you listed should by all reason be combatwise on par with the current ECM lights. I'm ok with your sentiment that Streaks are OP and should be altered (I'm personaly fine with them though), but disagree that 4 light mechs should have a privilege to be immune to that weapon. 2D is the only one of these likely to have only Streaks, so - odds are even, use your other weapons beside that consistent damage you'll both be receiving and may the best pilot triumph.

I agree that the life of a ECM light pilot will get harder. But it won't be harder than it's now for the non-ECM lights, who will in fact benefit from this, even if the amount of Streaks on everybody increases. They'll now have an even chance instead of gimping their team if the other team brought ECMs.

I never said they shouldn't be competitive against the ECM lights, that's pretty much a strawman. If something can only be on-par with the FoTM chassis for its class if it possess a hard counter to it, then that's the sign of something wrong. Equipping Streaks (or ECM for that matter) simply should not give an instant and extreme advantage over other mechs of the same class. Streaks (and ECM) should be a choice instead of must-have, sort of like how larger mechs can chose either an AC/20 or Gauss Rifle and do very well with either one. Light mechs should not have to depend on Streaks or ECM to be competitive: that is a sign of Streaks and ECM being the metagame of the weight class and it's just plain dumb.

Both items need some serious reworking. ECM should work MW4 style where it just makes locks take a little bit longer to achieve (instead of preventing them entirely), and SSRMs should also work like MW4 where they home in on the location you aimed at when you pulled the trigger.

Edited by FupDup, 19 May 2013 - 04:13 PM.

[Kyynele]

FupDup, on 19 May 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Like I said (perhaps not clearly enough), I don't like the current state of ECM either. I just want it to work like MW4 where it reduced your radar signature (can't be detected from as far away) and only makes missiles take a little bit longer to achieve lock instead of preventing them outright.

I got that you don't like how ECM works. I just commented on your claim that the 3M and 5D would've been fine as they were.

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I don't spend as much time complaining about ECM as Streaks because people aren't affected by it nearly as much these days due to the direct-fire weapon proliferation, including PPCs which just so happen to briefly disable ECM. It's still a borked item due to its hard-counter nature, but since missiles aren't the current meta the impact isn't nearly as apparent ATM. LRM boats are currently not even strong enough to do well without ECM units around these days.

All this is at least partially a sideproduct of the current ECM implementation. The risk of boating LRMs and not being able to shoot them at anything because of ECM is not worth it if the LRMs aren't noticeably overpowered, which is a big reason why they are so little used right now. Despite you anticipating that every missile hardpoint will be full of streaks after 21st, I'm sure you'll notice that this BAP change along with LRM speed increase will increase the amount of LRMs on the field considerably, and your SSRM nightmare won't be nearly as bad as you fear.

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BAP itself doesn't give the advantage, but it does allow people to use a different item that gives the advantage instead: Streaks. Yes, ECM users currently have the advantage and that does quite frankly suck. All this patch is going to do is flip it around. It's not the BAP alone that will be hated per se, just the combination of it and Streaks. One step forwards, one step backwards.

I claim that the major change here is that 2 mech variants lose their exclusive right to that same advantage everyone with missile hardpoints is now getting access to. Considering that despite it's no-skill near-guaranteed CT hit, SSRM2 is one of the lowest damage weapons in the game, it's hardly OP enough to shift the meta from sniping to Streaks.

At the moment ECM+Streaks is a combo that allows you to use a weapon while preventing others from doing the same to you. The coming BAP+Streaks allows you to use a weapon. This is nowhere near as broken as the current combination and will not be especially hated by anyone except for some bitter ECM pilots who think they shouldn't be able to be locked on at all. Evening the field is a much bigger step forwards than the hit lights in general will be getting a step backwards.

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I never said they shouldn't be competitive against the ECM lights, that's pretty much a strawman. If something can only be on-par with the FoTM chassis for its class if it possess a hard counter to it, then that's the sign of something wrong. Equipping Streaks (or ECM for that matter) simply should not give an instant and extreme advantage over other mechs of the same class. Streaks (and ECM) should be a choice instead of must-have, sort of like how larger mechs can chose either an AC/20 or Gauss Rifle and do very well with either one. Light mechs should not have to depend on Streaks or ECM to be competitive: that is a sign of Streaks and ECM being the metagame of the weight class and it's just plain dumb.

I think streaks are much less of a must-have than ECM is. ECM probably remains more must-have even after the patch. And maybe some light pilots will even prefer LRMs over Streaks now that they can't be completely neutralized by ECM, which would imo be pretty close to your AC/20 vs Gauss analogy, both being lock on weapons, with the other offering higher damage per missile at a shorter range.

Last night I ran a light wolfpack with my friends, 3 Jenners and a 3L. Out of 8 games, we completely dominated 7. Most of the games, the Jenner-Fs were at the top of the damage list, followed by a small margin by the 3L and Jenner-Ds. Even if all the enemies would've had all their missile slots full of streaks and could have fired them all the time, we would likely have won those matches. It would've been a bit less of a roflstomp, though. Which would have been a good thing. I think the 21st patch will be fine.

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Both items need some serious reworking. ECM should work MW4 style where it just makes locks take a little bit longer to achieve (instead of preventing them entirely), and SSRMs should also work like MW4 where they home in on the location you aimed at when you pulled the trigger.

I have nothing against this, but I'm happy we're getting something, even if it isn't perfection incarnate. I'm a MW2 person myself, so do pardon me for not automatically preferring the way stuff was done in some other MW title.

[DemonRaziel]

Some posts above I have stated that I will not make a ruckus until the new BAP is in game and playtested, now I am doing the exact opposite, so shame on me. But what the heck, right now I just want to voice my concerns.

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

All this is at least partially a sideproduct of the current ECM implementation. The risk of boating LRMs and not being able to shoot them at anything because of ECM is not worth it if the LRMs aren't noticeably overpowered, which is a big reason why they are so little used right now. Despite you anticipating that every missile hardpoint will be full of streaks after 21st, I'm sure you'll notice that this BAP change along with LRM speed increase will increase the amount of LRMs on the field considerably, and your SSRM nightmare won't be nearly as bad as you fear.

The thing is, the new BAP does very little for the LRM boaters. Yes, if they have BAP, they can still fire their weapons at distant targets, even if ECM 'Mech is standing right next to them. But at that point... well... an enemy 'Mech is standing right next to them. ECM still protects you from LRM fire at greater distances, unless the attacker has TAG and even then, indirect fire is a no go. So really, at the distances BAP counters ECM, SSRMs are the clear winners in terms of net gain.

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

I claim that the major change here is that 2 mech variants lose their exclusive right to that same advantage everyone with missile hardpoints is now getting access to. Considering that despite it's no-skill near-guaranteed CT hit, SSRM2 is one of the lowest damage weapons in the game, it's hardly OP enough to shift the meta from sniping to Streaks.

Actually, it won't have to shift anything. Sniping does not utilize M hard points and there are more than enough 'Mechs that got room for a couple of streaks on top of their PPC, or Gauss in the heavy+ category. Even with the current state of ECM, SSRMs are the go to choice for many 'Mechs as far as missile hard points go.

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

I think streaks are much less of a must-have than ECM is. ECM probably remains more must-have even after the patch. And maybe some light pilots will even prefer LRMs over Streaks now that they can't be completely neutralized by ECM, which would imo be pretty close to your AC/20 vs Gauss analogy, both being lock on weapons, with the other offering higher damage per missile at a shorter range.

Effectivity of ECM will be diminished greatly in 2 days. I, too, believe that it will not stop most 'Mechs to carry ECM (though really, if BAP somehow countered all ECM in the area, regardless of their number, 'Mechs mostly relying on SSRMs, like the 2D, might be better off by packing BAP instead of ECM). The higher you climb the ELO bracket, the more significant this change will be for the Lights. And I am very doubtful there will be a noticable increase in the amount of light 'Mechs carrying LRMs. The analogy with AC/20 vs Gauss is missing the point, I am afraid - those weapons are both good in their respective areas, but when it comes to guided missiles, there are clear differences in power and effectivity.

Kyynele, on 20 May 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Last night I ran a light wolfpack with my friends, 3 Jenners and a 3L. Out of 8 games, we completely dominated 7. Most of the games, the Jenner-Fs were at the top of the damage list, followed by a small margin by the 3L and Jenner-Ds. Even if all the enemies would've had all their missile slots full of streaks and could have fired them all the time, we would likely have won those matches. It would've been a bit less of a roflstomp, though. Which would have been a good thing. I think the 21st patch will be fine.

Oh come on now. This is not fair. A coordinated attack by 4 Lights in a game, where you most likely have the advantage of communication and thus can concentrate all your firepower on a single target. This is hardly a way to demonstrate the effectiveness of streaks, or Lights...

[Kyynele]

DemonRaziel, on 20 May 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

The thing is, the new BAP does very little for the LRM boaters. Yes, if they have BAP, they can still fire their weapons at distant targets, even if ECM 'Mech is standing right next to them. But at that point... well... an enemy 'Mech is standing right next to them. ECM still protects you from LRM fire at greater distances, unless the attacker has TAG and even then, indirect fire is a no go. So really, at the distances BAP counters ECM, SSRMs are the clear winners in terms of net gain.

I wouldn't call the difference between firing hundreds of LRMs towards enemies and not being to able to do anything 'very little.' Yes, the LRM boat is ****** if a light mech is close and team members aren't helping, but he's not out of the game at that same instant. I don't know if you've not just played LRMs much, but that is a big issue even if it doesn't really help the LRM boater against that particular light at all.

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Actually, it won't have to shift anything. Sniping does not utilize M hard points and there are more than enough 'Mechs that got room for a couple of streaks on top of their PPC, or Gauss in the heavy+ category. Even with the current state of ECM, SSRMs are the go to choice for many 'Mechs as far as missile hard points go.

The weight and crits have to come somewhere. I really doubt 6PPC 4 SSRM2 Stalkers would be very good. Most mechs have 2-3 missile hardpoints at maximum, and even a StreakCat takes at least 4 full salvos to kill a light. There are no instant deaths in sight here.

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Effectivity of ECM will be diminished greatly in 2 days. I, too, believe that it will not stop most 'Mechs to carry ECM (though really, if BAP somehow countered all ECM in the area, regardless of their number, 'Mechs mostly relying on SSRMs, like the 2D, might be better off by packing BAP instead of ECM). The higher you climb the ELO bracket, the more significant this change will be for the Lights. And I am very doubtful there will be a noticable increase in the amount of light 'Mechs carrying LRMs. The analogy with AC/20 vs Gauss is missing the point, I am afraid - those weapons are both good in their respective areas, but when it comes to guided missiles, there are clear differences in power and effectivity.

Yet, before the missile nerf LRMs were much more common in PUG matches than SSRMs for a long time, save for the ECM-streak abusers. I fail to see why they wouldn't gain back some of their popularity with the coming buffs. I think you're confusing weapon efficiency in general with what's efficient against the mechs you play.

The other way to look at the AC/20 vs Gauss situation would be that there needs to be another lock-on missile without minimum range, so people can have a choice in their short range homing gear, but I thought it was fairly obvious that the word choice is thrown in here just to have an excuse to demand that nobody should still be able to lock on you.

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Oh come on now. This is not fair. A coordinated attack by 4 Lights in a game, where you most likely have the advantage of communication and thus can concentrate all your firepower on a single target. This is hardly a way to demonstrate the effectiveness of streaks, or Lights...

So, considering that the usual matches our group plays mostly in heavies and assaults with usually 1 light scout at max, are very even matches that usually end up in defeat if the rest 4 get themselves killed, switching to all lights and continuously roflstomping in straight combat, without any basecap trickery demonstrates nothing? Fine.