75 replies to this topic

[Tombstoner]

Gyrok, on 16 May 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Well...



Basically, once the system for penalties when you blow way past your max heat and shutdown goes in, the issue is 100% resolved.

Additionally, 12 medium lasers are potent up close...but they're not worth much at AC/2 or AC/5 or Gauss or ER PPC/ER LL ranges...

VanillaG, on 17 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

The reason that stock configs are not very competitive in MWO is because they are built with an entirely different combat environment in mind. In TT you are dealing with a combined arms environment in which mechs had to deal with un-armored infantry, armored vehicles, and aerospace fighters. The Spider is a perfect example of this with 2 variants specifically built for anti-infantry roles.

MWO is more in line with Solaris in that the combat is geared towards mech on mech so builds tend to favor loadouts for killing big things fast. Those builds however would struggle in environments where combined arms are more prominent.

The spider is gimped only because of the way mg's have been implimented.. if they did more damage then it would be viable to use.

You can stack 50% more DHS into a clan mech; 2 IS DHS = 6 space @ 2 spaced per clan DHS = 3 clan DHS vs 2 is.
this is the reason( IMO) why DHS are 1.4 heat /HS and not true 2 heat/DHS. clan mechs can boat DHS better then IS as long as the equipment is separated. once integrated IS DHS are junk.

For high alpha mechs like the black hawk.... MWO game design is perfect for this mech. yes in TT it is heavily hampered by the heat system.... this it MWO and it uses a completely different system. its all about the heat capacity before shut down. not being heat neutral like it is in TT.

your mech has a base heat capacity and it goes up with larger engines and with each heat sink you add and the pilot modifiers from the skill tree. the black hawk has the speed and JJ to close range and pop tart you to death. its also a 50 tone mech and is going to be small ish. its going to get off at least 2 alphas before it has to worry about shut down. so your gona eat168 point of damage before it needs to fall back and cool off or use a cool shot.

It will be flat out be the perfect medium energy boat. the game has suficant cover to close range on all maps so in the hands of a skill or even average player your going to loose the range advantage.

also people are not thinking in terms of say 12 small lasers or even clan er small lasers, in mass they have the cycle rate to pump out some damage with little heat. and how they heck can people even comment on the torso twist range or speed. that subjective and up to the devs to balance.

Edited by Tombstoner, 17 May 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[Viper69]

The reason the nova had so many is redundancy, not to fire them all at once, I would leave all 12 in there even as crit padding. In the event you need that firepower in a do or die moment you have it for one shot and hope you hit. Otherwise stand off at Large Laser range and shoot your ER medium lasers, its not a hard concept to envision. God forbid you have more weapons than you can alpha strike multiple times oh lawd have mercy. You can definitely tell who has been roped into the current meta.

[VanillaG]

Tombstoner, on 17 May 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

You can stack 50% more DHS into a clan mech; 2 IS DHS = 6 space @ 2 spaced per clan DHS = 3 clan DHS vs 2 is.
this is the reason( IMO) why DHS are 1.4 heat /HS and not true 2 heat/DHS. clan mechs can boat DHS better then IS as long as the equipment is separated. once integrated IS DHS are junk.

Except it is a little more complicated than that. The first 10 (or number of HS in the engine for engines less than 250 rating) count as full 2 heat/second heatsinks. All other heatsinks after the first 10 whether they are in the engine or not a 1.4 heat/second. The you add on the 10% dissipation bonus (that is doubled when you elite a chassis) and you get close to an average of 2 heat/second for the heat sinks. While it seems a little complicated it introduces a point of diminishing returns for trying to equip a large number of heatsinks.

[Pinselborste]

Clan tech just needs to get balanced so both IS and CLANS have up and downsides.

The reason clans have superior tech in TT is that power sells good, so it was a good way to boost the sales.

If pgi implements clans with TT stats the game will be dead pretty fast cause no one will stay with IS tech.

[ReuSeven]

Hi Guys
I'm new at this so go easy on me ok...

Basically I understand about 60% from what's going on.

IS Mechs was designed by Engineers that sells mechs to Mercenaries, Solders and even Security Guards... So IS mechs will have to be -less- deadly, however even Clan members cannot "buy" Clan tech, he or she has to earn it...
My suggestion is this, create 2 new game modes and new form of currency called "Clan Recognition". The amount of CR will determine what level of Tech you and use and mechs can be piloted.

Let the Player Choose if he or she will be an IS (free birth) or a Clan pilot
If the player wants to change from IS to Clan let the player -PAY A LARGE AMOUNT OF CBILLS, LOSE REMAINING CBILLS, IS TECH AND MECHS - as a form of tribute to the clan the player is joining and start with 10% CR(Clan Recognition) of the total converted C-bill value.
If a Clan member wish to leave the Clans for a live of freedom he or she needs to earn it by gathering allot of CR and give it up( Pay a large amount of RC and start with 0 C-bills with no mechs)

Game mode 1 is Clan vs Clan were Clan Recognition can be earned with no C-bills, this will -motivate- the players to play as a Clan Warrior( just like assault for the IS pilots for Cash)
Game mode 2, IS vs CLAN this will work like conquest, I will have to agree this 12 IS Mechs vs 10 Clan Mechs... Clan mechs will have the upper hands BUT only the high ranking ones... the RC will control what Clan will bring to the battle field and so will the C-Bill for IS.

As for Mix Tech mechs I do not believe that a Clan mech Warrior will out fit his\her mech with "free birth blasphemy tech" but you never know...Create a new internal structure (e.g.IS Standard for Clan Players or Clan Standard for IS) this will allow you to load the desired tech but it will take critical points and cost C-bills for IS and nothing for the Clan player (They lose their Clan tech so its fair).
Look at it this way...You modify the IS standard mech so that it can work with Clan Tech but the modification takes space and wont allow you to load you're mech to the same amount of equipment as an Unmodified IS mech or a Standard Clan mech but you can have Clan weapons engines and so on... You win some you lose some.
Also IS Pilots can buy Clan mechs but at a hight price or with MCs but will not be able to fully outfit it with Clan Tech due to IS can only buy IS Tech and limited clan tech e.g. No or few Ammo base weapons and the Clan lasers are 10 times more expensive than the IS counterpart , Clan warrior will rather die than pilot an IS mech right...But you do find some IS mechs that the Clan reengineered e.g. Urban mech.

Well after reading all the post before me this is my take on things.

[Pinselborste]

ReuSeven, on 17 May 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Hi Guys
I'm new at this so go easy on me ok...
Basically I understand about 60% from what's going on.
IS Mechs was designed by Engineers that sells mechs to Mercenaries, Solders and even Security Guards... So IS mechs will have to be -less- deadly, however even Clan members cannot "buy" Clan tech, he or she has to earn it...
My suggestion is this, create 2 new game modes and new form of currency called "Clan Recognition". The amount of CR will determine what level of Tech you and use and mechs can be piloted.
Let the Player Choose if he or she will be an IS (free birth) or a Clan pilot
,If the player wants to change from IS to Clan let the player -PAY A LARGE AMOUNT OF CBILLS, LOSE REMAINING CBILLS, IS TECH AND MECHS - as a form of tribute to the clan the player is joining and start with 10% CR(Clan Recognition) of the total converted C-bill value. If a Clan member wish to leave the Clans for a live of freedom he or she needs to earn it by gathering allot of CR and give it up( Pay a large amount of RC and start with 0 C-bills with no mechs)

Game mode 1 is Clan vs Clan were Clan Recognition can be earned with no C-bills, this will -motivate- the players to play as a Clan Warrior( just like assault for the IS pilots for Cash)
Game mode 2, IS vs CLAN this will work like conquest, I will have to agree this 12 IS Mechs vs 10 Clan Mechs... Clan mechs will have the upper hands BUT only the high ranking ones... the RC will control what Clan will bring to the battle field and so will the C-Bill for IS.

As for Mix Tech mechs I do not believe that a Clan mech Warrior will out fit his\her mech with "free birth blasphemy tech" but you never know...Create a new internal structure (e.g.IS Standard for Clan Players or Clan Standard for IS) this will allow you to load the desired tech but it will take critical points and cost C-bills for IS and nothing for the Clan player (They lose their Clan tech so its fair).
Look at it this way...You modify the IS standard mech so that it can work with Clan Tech but the modification takes space and wont allow you to load you're mech to the same amount of equipment as an Unmodified IS mech or a Standard Clan mech but you can have Clan weapons engines and so on... You win some you lose some.
Also IS Pilots can buy Clan mechs but at a hight price or with MCs but will not be able to fully outfit it with Clan Tech due to IS can only buy IS Tech and limited clan tech e.g. No or few Ammo base weapons and the Clan lasers are 10 times more expensive than the IS counterpart , Clan warrior will rather die than pilot an IS mech right...But you do find some IS mechs that the Clan reengineered e.g. Urban mech.

Well after reading all the post before me this is my take on things.

quoted it so its easier to read for people with weaker eyes.

and btw, loosing IS mechs when you want to buy Clan mechs is a bad thing, especially when you loose things like hero and founders mechs.

also, if clan tech doesnt get balanced it will be 90% clan players and the rest IS, result is that game will be dead soon.

Edited by Pinselborste, 17 May 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[ReuSeven]

Hmm.. wonder why my text are so small.

Oh yea modifying you're IS mech with Clan Internal Structure will allow to equip IS and Clan tech and ammo but not all of them I don't think Clan factories will supply IS Markets...

[Hotthedd]

ReuSeven, on 17 May 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Hmm.. wonder why my text are so small.

Oh yea modifying you're IS mech with Clan Internal Structure will allow to equip IS and Clan tech and ammo but not all of them I don't think Clan factories will supply IS Markets...

Therefore Clan weapons and equipment will have to be salvaged by I.S. pilots. There are several ways to implement this.

[Zerberus]

And what good does salvage do you if you need 2 years in a lab to figure out how it works?

IS pilots running around in clan mechs before 3052 is, in all fairness, a disgrace to any game assuming to be affiliated with BT, ESPECIALLY one presumably followint the canon timeline. It hasn`t been possible for decades to run 3052 tech on 3050 matches, so why should it be here?

[Hotthedd]

Zerberus, on 17 May 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

And what good does salvage do you if you need 2 years in a lab to figure out how it works?

IS pilots running around in clan mechs before 3052 is, in all fairness, a disgrace to any game assuming to be affiliated with BT, ESPECIALLY one presumably followint the canon timeline. It hasn`t been possible for decades to run 3052 tech on 3050 matches, so why should it be here?

Well, for one I would argue that it should take two years of accumulated salvage to have enough to fully outfit an I.S. mech with enough mixtech to make a difference.

[Zerberus]

That of course would be very different, and admittedly was not what I expected

The general concensus among the "clan salvagers" sems to be more along teh lines of "Ok, then I have to salvage them, no biggie, should go a week or so and then I´ll have 2 Dire Wolves and a Timber Wolf"

[Gyrok]

Viper69, on 17 May 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Correction...12 ERMED lasers. They have a range that of a IS large laser. So no they are more than potent up close they are also potent at long range. Yo are right in that they are not viable at ranges of the AC2 gauss and ERPPC. However how long do you think an engagement will stay at those ranges?

If you're in something like a Timberwolf or Dire Wolf? Indefinitely. Why would you close to melee range, where you're weak, when you're in a fast mech armed to the teeth to do battle at long range?

You wouldn't...or you'd be a fool to play to your own weakness and someone else's strengths.

Nova Prime isn't any faster than a Timberwolf...the Dire is a bit slower but it's a 100 ton assault mech too...something like a Mad Dog or Timberwolf would eat you alive moving from range while you tried to close to use your ERMLs...and you'd never close the gap because there isn't a significant speed difference.

It's easily countered by a savvy mech pilot.

Edited by Gyrok, 18 May 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Gyrok]

Tombstoner, on 17 May 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

The spider is gimped only because of the way mg's have been implimented.. if they did more damage then it would be viable to use.

You can stack 50% more DHS into a clan mech; 2 IS DHS = 6 space @ 2 spaced per clan DHS = 3 clan DHS vs 2 is.
this is the reason( IMO) why DHS are 1.4 heat /HS and not true 2 heat/DHS. clan mechs can boat DHS better then IS as long as the equipment is separated. once integrated IS DHS are junk.

For high alpha mechs like the black hawk.... MWO game design is perfect for this mech. yes in TT it is heavily hampered by the heat system.... this it MWO and it uses a completely different system. its all about the heat capacity before shut down. not being heat neutral like it is in TT.

your mech has a base heat capacity and it goes up with larger engines and with each heat sink you add and the pilot modifiers from the skill tree. the black hawk has the speed and JJ to close range and pop tart you to death. its also a 50 tone mech and is going to be small ish. its going to get off at least 2 alphas before it has to worry about shut down. so your gona eat168 point of damage before it needs to fall back and cool off or use a cool shot.

It will be flat out be the perfect medium energy boat. the game has suficant cover to close range on all maps so in the hands of a skill or even average player your going to loose the range advantage.

also people are not thinking in terms of say 12 small lasers or even clan er small lasers, in mass they have the cycle rate to pump out some damage with little heat. and how they heck can people even comment on the torso twist range or speed. that subjective and up to the devs to balance.

No, actually...it's not faster than the Mad Dog or Timberwolf...those mechs are ridiculously fast for their size, they're also far better armed for long range combat, and far better armored.

Nova Prime is not an OP mech...it's really a clan version of a "brawler"...you deal with it the same way you deal with a HBK-4G...put him down before he gets in range. There will be mechs out there that rain down LRM love all over this mech before it gets close. There will be mechs that will punch holes in it with Gauss/ER PPC before it ever gets into range of it's weapons.

There is not sufficient cover...at long range you aren't even hiding in trees! The other guy can see you and just blast away with his ER weapons while you try to scramble to close the 800m Gap.

You're trying to make it more complicated than it has to be. Think like someone who strategizes...not like someone who stares at 12 ERML and goes..."OMGWTF!1! OP!!11!"...

That's also assuming that mech is even in the game...

I would bet these will be the First round of Clan Mechs:

Light: Kit Fox (Uller)
Medium: Ice Ferret (Fenris)
Heavy: Timber Wolf (Mad Cat)
Assault: Dire Wolf (Daishi)

[ReuSeven]

I would like to see the Mad dog(vulture), but the MWO Dev Guys made the Catapult so good that I don't mind the wait. The Timber Wolf will be the first Clan mech that I will buy, I like the heaves...

[IceSerpent]

Viper69, on 17 May 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

The reason the nova had so many is redundancy, not to fire them all at once, I would leave all 12 in there even as crit padding. In the event you need that firepower in a do or die moment you have it for one shot and hope you hit. Otherwise stand off at Large Laser range and shoot your ER medium lasers, its not a hard concept to envision. God forbid you have more weapons than you can alpha strike multiple times oh lawd have mercy. You can definitely tell who has been roped into the current meta.

Not redundancy - Nova has all of them in the arms, in TT arm-mounted weapon gets extra 60 degrees (1 hex) to its firing arc and being able to bring a lot of firepower (6 ERML in this case) into your 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock arcs is a huge advantage. Warhawk Prime is set up along the same lines.

[Gyrok]

ReuSeven, on 19 May 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

I would like to see the Mad dog(vulture), but the MWO Dev Guys made the Catapult so good that I don't mind the wait. The Timber Wolf will be the first Clan mech that I will buy, I like the heaves...

The Mad Dog and Timberwolf are my 2 favorites