396 replies to this topic

[Caustic Canid]

Void Angel, on 13 May 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Sure; I've done the same thing, and no one really minds if you're responding to a force imbalance (either from the perspective of a lost force-on-force or a drop tonnage imbalance.) What people get angry about is stuff like the 3-4man Raven premades that simply avoid combat and run to the drop zone - especially since so many lights in a team tends to cause the matchmaker to break tonnage matching.

Understand, this is from the perspective of a Light and Medium pilot, as well as a Heavy/Assault pilot. What the OP conveniently ignores is that a lot of the people yelling at him for capping without even trying to find/fight the enemy are the Light/Mediums on his own team.

Which is why I'm saying that the assault mode needs to be modified. I don't want the mechanic pulled out entirely, but changing it so it brings it to people's attention (by giving rewards for both trying to cap, and defending) will change the general meta.

I guess from my perspective, 4 lights rushing straight to the base should be the norm. People would divide to defend against them, as well as advance on the other teams base. If it WAS the norm, people would expect it, and change their behavior. As it is now, they only see capping as using a "broken mechanic" to troll, and thus hurl insults rather than try to stop it.

Granted, PGI should base the cap time on something like: "average speed 'mech moving from center of map should = about 50% cap when 2-3 mechs are capping", as right now the cap speeds are a bit too fast.

I also like the suggestion about being able to restore your base after they have left by staying in it.

[Keifomofutu]

Caustic Canid, on 13 May 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

I guess from my perspective, 4 lights rushing straight to the base should be the norm. People would divide to defend against them, as well as advance on the other teams base. If it WAS the norm, people would expect it, and change their behavior. As it is now, they only see capping as using a "broken mechanic" to troll, and thus hurl insults rather than try to stop it.

Granted, PGI should base the cap time on something like: "average speed 'mech moving from center of map should = about 50% cap when 2-3 mechs are capping", as right now the cap speeds are a bit too fast.

I also like the suggestion about being able to restore your base after they have left by staying in it.

If it really was the norm for 4 lights to rush your base you would simply wait for them with all eight of your team and kill them.

Still cap time being based on map size and a way to refill the bar would both be very helpful to assault balance overall so kudos. Just hope PGI sees it that way.

[Caustic Canid]

Keifomofutu, on 13 May 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

If it really was the norm for 4 lights to rush your base you would simply wait for them with all eight of your team and kill them.

Fair enough.

Although, I would also expect 4 lights just blatantly rushing in without scouting to get leveled, I more just meant, people trying to cap would be more common. Poor choice of words on my part.

[Jukebox1986]

The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

Sun Tzu


If you cant even defend your own base from capping, what kind of warrior are you?
If you cant adjust to a moving battlefield, what kind of soldier are you?

I´m absolutely pro capping. There is nothing wrong with it. But i also think, we need the dropship-mode asap.

Because i dont want my personal taste be made top priority. There are people who dont think our (crudely made) two game-modes are fun. And who am i to tell em otherwise? Fun is, after all, subjectiv.

But a lot of you should stop thinking, that your own opinion is more than that. It´s your opinion, not mine, not the devs and above all - not OURS.

Edited by Janus Wealth, 13 May 2013 - 11:02 PM.

[Livewyr]

Xyre, on 13 May 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Your gripe with people being unhappy is based on your intentions and how you play. Your argument justifies not just yourself, but anyone who wastes others time, I am merely giving you the counter-argument of, many people do not play like you and that is why people complain.

And I see what you mean- the fast (full) cappers can derive justification from it. And for that, I think all players need to start accounting for that possibility. (Leaving a defender, or having faster mechs on standby in order to head it off, the same defense applies to effectively dealing with early captures for both reasons.)

The original goal of the thread (through encouragement of the maneuver classes) was to break the monotony of an entire team charging the enemy and leaving no one to defend. (The assault racket being in reference to players using social discouragement to plug the hole in the defense they've left themselves, rather than actually plugging the hole in their defense.)

I would also like PGI to start having more (team included) rewards for capping, rather than giving out points just for damage and kills.. the realm of heavy mechs. (Would also like ability to defend easier- like recoverable base, and being able to defend the base by shooting the mech, rather than having to stand on it to stem the loss.)

Edited by Livewyr, 14 May 2013 - 01:57 AM.

[Void Angel]

Neverfar, on 13 May 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

I groan at any and all Sun Tzu quoting on the internet (and boy, is there a lot of that) but otherwise I'm in full agreement with this post.

Why do bloat boaters babble about tactics™ and skill™ when they're too sluggish and inflexible to deal with a capper?

Well, it might have something to do with the fact that we have no way to control our team's drop composition, coupled to the fact that splitting up our firepower has a multiplicative effect.

Also, both you and the guy you're quoting seem to have fallen in with the OP's straw man misrepresentation of the gaming community: no one to speak of minds if you cap during the course of a match if that's appropriate. What people hate is when certain... persons... deliberately avoid combat in order to capture the enemy's base faster than they can respond. Most times, it doesn't work, which is why the attempt is so rare - a light, a fast medium, or even a Dragon will break off and prevent the capture. The exceptions to this rule are players who drop with premades specifically designed for this tactic, and players who use this tactic on the huge Alpine and Tourmaline maps - which are simply so huge that the enemy team cannot physically cover all approaches to their base. The only way to counter this tactic is to simply camp the base - but that's no fun, and can degenerate into a staring contest, particularly if you both happened to drop without lights. Players justly despise this behavior because it wastes the time of both teams, costs both teams cbills and exp, and simply isn't fun for most people - the only sure reward for doing this is the ego gratification of having "won" the match; even with the capture bonus, engaging in actual combat often yields greater rewards.

No one really minds if your lights break off to cap when they see their teammates losing a brawl, or in order to break up a stalemate sniper battle. Some people mind that sort of thing, but they're a small, silly minority. When players engage in behaviors which are designed to avoid fighting, in a game of armored combat, and which result in lost rewards for both teams, that's another matter entirely. When you do people an injury, they'll complain about it. Making a long diatribe thread (cough,cough) to accuse the injured parties of conspiracy and oppression is literally the same tactic that certain historical figures used to scapegoat a minority or two. They're not complaining because they're too stupid and inflexible to deal with capture attempts. They're complaining because certain methods of capping exploit holes in the match system to the detriment of all players in the match. Often the people who yell at CapWarriors to stop are on their own team.

Edited by Void Angel, 14 May 2013 - 01:49 AM.

[Galenit]

Xyre, on 13 May 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

The only problem I have is fast caps, because they are a huge waste of peoples time(loading, getting in game, getting to positions, then pop "cap" for 25k c-bills)

A spider can get 75-100k from fastcapping in the time 1 fighting match plays, can a spider get constantly enough damage and kills to get the same money from fighting matches? Looking from the "rewards" point it seems that fighting is wasting time for a spider ...

I pilot no spider, but most posts, like yours or the "every match 4 kills, 3 assist" are onesided.
You say the op is right when you post things like that ...

Edited by Galenit, 14 May 2013 - 02:19 AM.

[pow pow]

stjobe, on 13 May 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

There is a great way to make this happen, which will also stop the capping: Don't drop in a slow assault or heavy every time, drop in a fast heavy, a fast medium, or in a light some times - and go fight where the fight is to be had, be that in the middle with the fatties or at the cap with the lights.

If more people actually had the means (and inclination) to respond to the both visual and aural message "The other team is stealing your shiny!", there would be much less unopposed caps, and there would be more fighting.

But sometimes it seems that "fighting" is only meant to be "plod to the middle and ridgehump/poptart". That's a pretty narrow definition of a fight, don't you agree?

As I said earlier in the thread, some of the best fights I've had has been around the cap. But for that to happen, people need to stop always bringing their slow fatties to the fight and start mixing it up with dropping with something that's able to respond to a "base is being captured" message.

I play fast moving cents/hunchies or fast catapults or my ctf-3d (pretty fast) but also a slow moving high hitting DDC.

and as i said I have no problem with tactical tapping or baiting (whether it's at their base or not, i don't mind) The problem (and this is 95% in pugs or 4man premades with 4 randoms) that each pilot has a specific tactic they are set to follow at the beginning of the map without really paying attention to team / lance composition or what others are planning to do.

So what are you suggesting? to stop playing slow moving assaults alltogether because the faster mechs will leave you behind to die ?

Here's a good suggestion. When you drop, assess your team/lance. if they are mostly slowpokes, make sure (as a light) to cover your tracks - meaning don't allow enemy lights to backdoor you - and then go scout for contacts and let your heavies know. If the heavies can manage the fight, go your merry way and try to bait or feint cap. Otherwise, always make sure you are within support distance from your lance and if they engage, make sure you can provide a bit of support. Whether that support is pulling enemies away or mixing it in a fight it don't matter.

I guess what I am trying to say is that every tactic (capping/fighting w/e) is all good when you have teamwork in mind and don't just run off to do your thing or what you feel is best!

[pow pow]

Zerberus, on 13 May 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

ROFL.

This is probably the root of all the Asasault rage, this simple yet ridiculous assumption.

Where it breaks down is in matches where 1 team has 2 heavies, 2 "mediums", and 4 lights and the other has 3 assaults, 3 heavies, and 2 mediums. If you see 1 lance of lights, 2 cicadas, a fang and a flame in your team at the start, you`re flat out stupid if you`re not already assuming to be outweighed by at least 100 tons, especially if oyu think you can take them head on.

If the team with the 4 lights has half a brain between them, they`re going for a cap rush, because it`s their only statistically viable way of winning the match. Let the 4 heavies distract while the lights get the win. Everything else is suicide.

That is superior tactics, nothing more, nothing less.

But the only thing you hear from the highladers, cataphracts and stalkers is still "Stupid cheating lights"..... coincidence?

The superior tactic when you come to that realization (that your team has less lights than enemies on alpine) is to camp the base and nuke the light lance before they even touch the base.

It's so simple yet so effective... if the lights wait for the rest of their team.. your point of caping being a superior tactic becomes invalid, because the game becomes a brawl but instead of mid map, it happens at base.

[Dreacos]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

This is the mentality of the light pilot who starts capping a base without firing a shot(at least in my case):
In stepping on their base and threatening to exploit their weakness and cap, I force at least some of them to change their current course. That maneuver alone has far more impact on the course of the match than any assault mech carrying my mech's weight in weaponry. In the event that they ignore it and don't react to it at all (and are mutilating my team), then I must enforce the requirement to react in the future.. and capture the base.

That is exactly the problem, isn't it? You can change the course of the match simply by walking from point A to B and standing idly, while the enemy team and the rest of your the team is, for better or worse, competing with each other to achieve some sort of feeling of success. While you might call this "out-maneuvering", and it is actually a correct definition, it actually lacks a counter in the current game other than the repetition of the same tactic by the opposing team, which, ironically, makes your proposed "counter" moot. More on this in a bit.

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

I log this game to have a drastic impact on the match, whether that involves pewpew zapzap boomboom or silently forcing their hand.

Same as above. No one player should have a drastic impact on the match with so little effort. Whether actually capping or just luring half the enemy team away from the fight and back to the base (and they have no idea what your intentions might be at that point), you are not offering the enemy team a choice, just an illusion of choice; "try to run back to your base and get obliterated from behind while the entire enemy team chases you down, or keep fighting and lose anyway, because I will keep capping if I don't see you turn your weak back to my team which is currently firing at you en-masse." That's called gunpoint diplomacy, I believe.

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Not all of us launch to charge the enemy and fight to the death in a straightforward brawl.. that's the realm of assaults and heavies. We have mediums and lights for a reason, I don't think that reason is to face off with someone who has you outweighed in weaponry alone.

Another problem surfaces here. Your tactic, valid as it may be in a more tactical warfare game, effectively neutralizes its own counter in MWO. In most of the maps, the only opponents who are indeed fast enough to try to stop you are off to do the exact same thing in the other base, turning the entire match into a race of who-gets-there-first, robbing any sense of achievement from other players in the field. Heavies and assaults lose any sense of purpose, as they can do nothing to affect the outcome of the match any more. Preparation in anticipation of such a tactic is also out of the question, we are playing a game which does not provide its player an effective means of communication, thereby seriously lacking in teamwork aside from organized groups of players. In effect, you are demanding an organized response from a horribly unorganized group of players, and you use the lack of valid (or adequate) response to your tactic to justify your decision to cap.

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

I would say actually sneaking to the enemy base, avoiding detection, and dealing with whatever they send back takes just as much skill (or more) than lumbering in a heavy/assault and fighting straight up. And it certainly has more impact on a match.

It most certainly does have more impact, albeit without any of the difficulty you mention. In fact, you can play hide and seek around large maps like Tourmaline without getting seen by anyone the entire match, especially if you have ECM, a fact that has necessitated implementation of a match-ending, i.e. capping mechanism in the first place. A short-sighted solution in my opinion.

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

One does what they have to do, I personally don't agree with the 2 minute fast cap, but I would rather a light mech go and at least start capturing- than trying to fight a heavy or assault which is a matter of time before being legged and finished.

If the enemy doesn't react, (this is where he must be in contact with his time) then win it by cap if needed.

Another justification here. As I said before, you are not offering the enemy a choice to return to base. You can't honestly expect one or two players to patrol all approaches to base every game for a possible base cap attempt, if said game ends in 6 minutes on average.

While I do see capping as a valid and valuable tactic if implemented correctly, it is currently in a terrible state. A simple increase in capping times based on map size would go great lengths towards solving this problem, which would make the "base being captured" warning an announcement of another front that has just opened behind the lines, not an instant declaration of your team's defeat.

Edited by Dreacos, 14 May 2013 - 04:57 AM.

[Agent of Change]

As some in this thread love to point out 80% of assault games end in kills. Which is a true fact, so why are they bitching about capping then they get what they want 80% of the time.

What bugs me more here is the willfully moronic assumption that seems to imply that a willingness to use capping at all for any reason equates to 'hur dur cap rusher'.

Not to mention that these people won't seem to accept that losing to cap is their fault, in that they did little or nothing to prevent it. I mean all the people complaining that something be done about the cappers (only 20% of game end in caps as we are reminded). Don't you have guns, mechs, can you aim?

You have the remedy already, sack up and shoot the cappers... that;'s your solution right there.

[Lostdragon]

Agent of Change, on 14 May 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

As some in this thread love to point out 80% of assault games end in kills. Which is a true fact, so why are they bitching about capping then they get what they want 80% of the time.

What bugs me more here is the willfully moronic assumption that seems to imply that a willingness to use capping at all for any reason equates to 'hur dur cap rusher'.

Not to mention that these people won't seem to accept that losing to cap is their fault, in that they did little or nothing to prevent it. I mean all the people complaining that something be done about the cappers (only 20% of game end in caps as we are reminded). Don't you have guns, mechs, can you aim?

You have the remedy already, sack up and shoot the cappers... that;'s your solution right there.

Maybe you should go back and actually read the rest of the thread where multiple people laid out in very clear terms why the way capping works right now is stupid and ideas to improve but not eliminate it.

[Sam Slade]

Void Angel, on 13 May 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

"...and engage in straw man sophistry?"

AND THEN

"My reasoning in this and other threads stands on its own merit."

Sophistry, sophistry... where's that dictionary...

Seriously man, rebut my assertion that your very extensive post is surmised in the 'cap = exploit' argument you make.

On topic; capping is not 'broken', communication in game is.

Edited by Sam Slade, 14 May 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[Keifomofutu]

Agent of Change, on 14 May 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

As some in this thread love to point out 80% of assault games end in kills. Which is a true fact, so why are they bitching about capping then they get what they want 80% of the time.

What bugs me more here is the willfully moronic assumption that seems to imply that a willingness to use capping at all for any reason equates to 'hur dur cap rusher'.

Not to mention that these people won't seem to accept that losing to cap is their fault, in that they did little or nothing to prevent it. I mean all the people complaining that something be done about the cappers (only 20% of game end in caps as we are reminded). Don't you have guns, mechs, can you aim?

You have the remedy already, sack up and shoot the cappers... that;'s your solution right there.

Because the vast majority of those cap wins are going to be happening in the large maps. You'll notice that a lot of the Assault Cap hate started resurfacing with the introduction of two massive maps back to back. That is not a coincidence. Your remedy is an absolute failure. You probably won't even see the capper on tourmaline. What's your remedy for that?

Only sure defense would be to sit on base, leave your team down a man, and die when the four surviving mechs of the enemy team hunt you down because they had numbers on their side.

Or a pack of three lights catches you alone.

[MaddMaxx]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

It's almost as if LRMs are completely useless against an entrenched enemy with ECM..

You will have to define "entrenched" as if it means as a group they huddle under complete cover and use ECM to defy radar and never expose themselves to shoot their weapons, then I have to say that after 3K + Matches of MWO, I have NEVER, ever seen an "entrenched" enemy.

Someone, invariably, will always stick their nose out to try and use their Mech for its designed purpose. All that is required is you, or your Teammates, be ready for said nose sticking out actions.

[jaakkomm]

Remedy would be few lights to intercept the capper at start or at end.

[Keifomofutu]

MaddMaxx, on 14 May 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

You will have to define "entrenched" as if it means as a group they huddle under complete cover and use ECM to defy radar and never expose themselves to shoot their weapons, then I have to say that after 3K + Matches of MWO, I have NEVER, ever seen an "entrenched" enemy.

Someone, invariably, will always stick their nose out to try and use their Mech for its designed purpose. All that is required is you, or your Teammates, be ready for said nose sticking out actions.

TAG also cuts through it and in the future NARC will cut through ECM as well. I'm not going to guarantee a dedicated light spotter will be crazy useful in pubs in the future but I could see it being effective in a 4man group.

[MaddMaxx]

Keifomofutu, on 14 May 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

TAG also cuts through it and in the future NARC will cut through ECM as well. I'm not going to guarantee a dedicated light spotter will be crazy useful in pubs in the future but I could see it being effective in a 4man group.

BAP as well come the 21st.

[Braggart]

Sam Slade, on 14 May 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Sophistry, sophistry... where's that dictionary...

Seriously man, rebut my assertion that your very extensive post is surmised in the 'cap = exploit' argument you make.

On topic; capping is not 'broken', communication in game is.

capping is working as intended. It is just a poorly designed game mode that is fun for no one. I absolutely hate the game when I am a light on alpine. Chances are I will spend the entire match running and capping points, never seeing any combat, and when the other team wins the 8 on 7. I have a dozen guys screaming at me to stay alive.

Game modes should designed to promote the gameplay, not be a distraction from it. Just like landing on Tourmaline with nothing but heavies and assaults against a team with 2-3 lights. This stuff happens for to often.

Until we get game modes that are more than single life. Having complex game modes is not going to be possible.

We should have an attack and defend mode. Where 1 team is supposed to take all the caps, and the other team is suppose to stop them. Then roles are swapped, and the original defend team is attacking, and the other team is defending. Whoever managed to take the most caps wins. In the event of a tie, A king of the hill mode or something.

A game mode like this will reward everyone. Lights and mediums are needed to try and take the furthest points, or to move from point to point on defense. Grouping together is not a valid strategy when there are 5 points on the maps. Your best chance is to break into groups. With 5 points to cover, you dont know where the enemy is going, which means scouts have a very effective role, so you can plan your defense accordingly. Mediums will be able to move quickly also to cover points that require it. Heavies and Assaults will be exactly that, their speed is their weakness, but their firepower in taking a cap point is needed, you know that your mech is only fast enough to manage to work on at most 2 caps. You have multiple methods of attack and defense, and the game will not play out the same.

Edited by Braggart, 14 May 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[pow pow]

the most annoying thing on my sniper ctf-3d is having some light hitting my back as soon as I start unloading on targets.

If he can take fire away from my main targets (i go for enemy highest dps mech first) and without me spotting it first. then I give alot of cred to that light pilot, even if i end up legging it with a single well aimed alpha, I still would have wasted alot of time away from my primary targets. And usually the case is that the more he can stay alive (the ctf turning torso is quite sloooow so good chance there) the better pilot he is!

That light has a a lot more skill and game sense imo than the one that runs to the base.

Don't take it as a critic to your gameplay, i d never do that because you are entitled to do whatever makes you have more fun (that's what it is all about) but it is just my view as a decent enough sniper on how I see other light pilots

Edited by pow pow, 14 May 2013 - 07:13 AM.