396 replies to this topic

[Keifomofutu]

Antarus, on 13 May 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

It's a crying shame we never get to play that Option 2, because a wall of charge particles comes over a hill and we all die because people are using the *canonical base defending assault mech* designed to go back and forth over friendly walls, or drop on top of people, as an offensive, bnever exposed for more than 3 second powerhouse.

We need some tactical levity, because without maneuvering MW:O is a terrible fish in a barrel shooting simulator right now. I will never cry a single tear for the wall O' PPC assaults and heavies being stuck in their position on a ridge, thinking they are in their wheelhouse, when a light captures their objective out from under them.

I am pretty pleased in fact that those people might actually admit that there is some sort of non ideal part of 'playing to win at any cost'. We'll stop gunning for bases to win (and ruining their shooty) when they stop using flavor of the month to win (and ruining our shooty), and nullifying the 'fun' of big stompy fighting robots, I suppose...

Of course, it's arguable that some people might be here for the idea of lances of mechs moving after objectives in some kind of tactical way, which is as much part of BT as Big Stompy Robot Shooty is, frankly..

TL'DR Metagame sucks right now so lets just burn this mother to the ground?

Well I suppose I respect that opinion more than someone trying to argue that quick caps is awesome gameplay.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 13 May 2013 - 03:18 PM.

[RG Notch]

Antarus, on 13 May 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

It's a crying shame we never get to play that Option 2, because a wall of charge particles comes over a hill and we all die because people are using the *canonical base defending assault mech* designed to go back and forth over friendly walls, or drop on top of people, as an offensive, bnever exposed for more than 3 second powerhouse.

We need some tactical levity, because without maneuvering MW:O is a terrible fish in a barrel shooting simulator right now. I will never cry a single tear for the wall O' PPC assaults and heavies being stuck in their position on a ridge, thinking they are in their wheelhouse, when a light captures their objective out from under them.

I am pretty pleased in fact that those people might actually admit that there is some sort of non ideal part of 'playing to win at any cost'. We'll stop gunning for bases to win (and ruining their shooty) when they stop using flavor of the month to win (and ruining our shooty), and nullifying the 'fun' of big stompy fighting robots, I suppose...

Of course, it's arguable that some people might be here for the idea of lances of mechs moving after objectives in some kind of tactical way, which is as much part of BT as Big Stompy Robot Shooty is, frankly..

80% of assault matches end in total team destruction, so really not ruining the fun all that often. Hell, half those are probably legitimate caps. So cap race all you want, 4/5 matches are good old fashioned fighting fun! I will take those Trident like numbers any day of the week. The People of the Red Square are not as numerous in game as their forum noise would make you think. Don't let their little games get you down.

[Xyre]

Im a bit confused, how are players basically, "Blob mentality patzers" for sticking together and using numbers/firepower to their advantage? I mean isnt there even a loading screen hint of "Stick together, teamwork equals victory" or something? The only real advantage to a heavy or assault going off on their own(out of support range of other mechs) is the ability to surprise an enemy with fire from a different location and while this "can" be effective more than likely they will get flanked/destroyed by a larger group or a light mech. In this game it only benefits lights/mediums for heavier mechs to go off on their own, which seems to be why you would create this entire argument

In general it never bothers me to see a couple lights or mediums get together and run off on their own, in fact it happens often, they generally go and find other lights/mediums to fight and kill that are also off on their own...but criticizing slow heavy mechs for not going off on their own, when it is almost always a guaranteed disadvantage in a PUG, seems like an incredibly loose/biased argument.

Would you be happy if light mechs, meant to scout/harass, were rewarded more for spotting or something? Because I do not think the whole "Stop being blobs heavy/assault mechs and go off on your own so I can kill you" argument will get you anywhere...

[Livewyr]

Xyre, on 13 May 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Im a bit confused, how are players basically, "Blob mentality patzers" for sticking together and using numbers/firepower to their advantage? I mean isnt there even a loading screen hint of "Stick together, teamwork equals victory" or something? The only real advantage to a heavy or assault going off on their own(out of support range of other mechs) is the ability to surprise an enemy with fire from a different location and while this "can" be effective more than likely they will get flanked/destroyed by a larger group or a light mech. In this game it only benefits lights/mediums for heavier mechs to go off on their own, which seems to be why you would create this entire argument

In general it never bothers me to see a couple lights or mediums get together and run off on their own, in fact it happens often, they generally go and find other lights/mediums to fight and kill that are also off on their own...but criticizing slow heavy mechs for not going off on their own, when it is almost always a guaranteed disadvantage in a PUG, seems like an incredibly loose/biased argument.

Would you be happy if light mechs, meant to scout/harass, were rewarded more for spotting or something? Because I do not think the whole "Stop being blobs heavy/assault mechs and go off on your own so I can kill you" argument will get you anywhere...

Where did you get "Heavies and Assaults go off on your own?"

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

"Ya gotta train yer pugs."

Seriously. It's a tossup for when people will actually listen to a strategy, let alone follow it through. But when it happens, it's a beautiful thing that the other team won't ever see coming. You have to talk to your team mates via that in game chat feature thingie and get them to work together as separate lances. We've hade some great flanking and hammer and anvil type attacks. One battle on Caustic, one on the other team complained that he 'didn't even think the battle had a front line', because our two lances had surrounded them front to back by the time they made it to the top of the volcano.

I pug most of the time, and I get damned tired of Lonewarrior, watching my team fall to pieces so I can get gang-banged by 700 tons of atomic pain afterward. Or thinking we have a good attack going, only to find that the other 3 mechs who were with me had taken a left turn to chase a raven, leaving alone me with an angry Stalker and his friend.

I was once badgered by a team member after the team let me slowly die by an unkindness of Ravens. When I asked, where the **** they were, he tells me "you should have stayed with the team." While I'm watching them piddle around in the middle of the map at a top speed of 60kph. I'm where the fight was and I should have "stayed with the team"? Oh hell. Yeah some bad attitudes and practices have lodged themselves into these guys peanut butter jars. My game isn't perfect, so I'll just limit my criticism to teamwork. Some people just want to shoot lasers at robots.

Well when that gets boring, they can try playing the game sometime.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 13 May 2013 - 03:38 PM.

[Antarus]

I don't even usually go for base caps - I'm a dragon pilot, so I will break off and go for a base but usually after brawling or trying to maneuver. But I do take offense at the basic problem, of people who do bring the big stompy robots and play flavor of the month and are exploiting the metagame complaining so hard when people throw up their hands and decide to flank for objective. If I hear "Yup. 4 Highlander 732's." from the scout, I am not going to crest a hill and take 12 PPC's to the face, I'm going around them or wait for the rest of my team to engage, and I think that's the basic point here, about people not respecting other game types or a variety of tactics after they are running one of the six 'viable' mechs in the game, and perfectly expressing the tactical homogeneity of the game which works so hard to drown out all other options (and is helped by the Meta)

[Xyre]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Where did you get "Heavies and Assaults go off on your own?"

"The idea behind this thread is to break the assault generated monotony of "blob towards enemy and fight like it's the 1700s in Europe" without any thought to maneuvering and tactics."

Well this for one, as well as other statements of blobbing not being tactical/strategic etc. If mechs arent blobbing then what are they doing? Perhaps I misunderstood you, but there really is only one other option to not staying near your support(aka blobbing) and that would be going off on your own.

Edited by Xyre, 13 May 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Livewyr]

Xyre, on 13 May 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

"The idea behind this thread is to break the assault generated monotony of "blob towards enemy and fight like it's the 1700s in Europe" without any thought to maneuvering and tactics."

Well this for one, as well as other statements of blobbing not being tactical/strategic etc. If mechs arent blobbing then what are they doing? Perhaps I misunderstood you, but there really is only one other option to not staying near your support(aka blobbing) and that would be going off on your own.

Assault generated, was in reference to assault mechs not liking when maneuver units break away to do their roles. (Assault mechs like straight up fights.. not maneuver battles.)

[Frisk]

If you're not having fun, then you're doing it wrong.

[Waldex]

Livewyr, on 12 May 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

There was a state of mind bred by the first 4 maps and their alternates: The Blob mentality.
The whole team sticks together and moves as a single blob, focuses targets and attempts to take out the other team faster.
If anyone caps, they're automatically a noob/loser/*******/jerk/*****/moron/etc...
This is blob mentality- or what I personally call; The "Assault Racket."

Assault mechs are undeniably the best at slaughtering mechs face to face, and now even in long range combat with the release of the Highlander.

So, what is the weakness of the Assault mech? Being the slowest on the battlefield.. that makes them vulnerable to being outmaneuvered. Now, as an assault mech, players know they can't go fast AND have ridiculous firepower so in order to negate their maneuverability disadvantage, they've made it socially unacceptable to outmaneuver them: "I've come here to blow up robots, not cap!" or "CapWarrior: Online" are common (un)clever epithets regarding capping.

This mentality has led to the crippling of the medium and light classes, it wasn't felt harshly until recently when the HSR removal of lag-shield made medium/light brawling non-viable.
The advantage of the medium and light chassis has been their maneuverability, which has been effectively outlawed by the Assault racket.

--------------------------------

So what needs to happen?

Start maneuvering.

I see a consistent battlefield routine in Alpine where the northeastern team moves a little ways away from their base to the closest ridge, sets up a firing line, and sits waiting for the other team, who dutifully runs right to them, intent on meeting in straightforward combat. Except the combat isn't straight forward, they get picked apart while maneuvering the open terrain to get to the enemy. You can see on the heat-map that there is where the majority of the deaths are.

Solution: Have some patience and don't engage them on their protective ridge. Stay back, flank to another side, send a jumpjet light mech to their base just to tap it and retreat up the hill just to create concern in two directions. Do not engage them when they have protective hill and you have open terrain. You will get picked apart, PPCs, Guass, LLasers, etc.. you will get picked apart.

Don't play into the Assault Racket. Cap them, force them to move. If they wish to bring the biggest load of weapons they can, make them pay for it, you're already paying a handicap in fighting by being completely outmatched in firepower, make them pay a handicap of being completely outmaneuvered.

In the Desert, same thing: Out maneuver them.


If anyone calls you something because you aren't fighting straight up, tell them to F-off and figure out how fights are really won.

I can tell you now, I will be capping bases until people figure it out. It could be considered trolling, but to that; I say the Assault Racket is trolling and therefore it's fair.

-Livewyr

(minor grammar edits)

Very well said and thought provoking.
Im going to go take another look at some mediums right now as a matter of fact, The idea of four fast med/heavies running straight to cap sounds interesting.

[Livewyr]

Waldex, on 13 May 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Very well said and thought provoking.
Im going to go take another look at some mediums right now as a matter of fact, The idea of four fast med/heavies running straight to cap sounds interesting.

Not what I'm advocating.. but if that gets your kicks, hope your enemy defends well.

[Xyre]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Assault generated, was in reference to assault mechs not liking when maneuver units break away to do their roles. (Assault mechs like straight up fights.. not maneuver battles.)

I have no problem with mediums/lights breaking off, it is only too their advantage in many cases(harass/scouting). The only problem I have is fast caps, because they are a huge waste of peoples time(loading, getting in game, getting to positions, then pop "cap" for 25k c-bills) Lights can fill numerous roles which can be really fun and helpful, but when one light decides they will end the battle for everyone quickly with a fast cap I certainly understand why they would receive animosity for breaking off and doing such. All games are team death match, its either kill everyone and capture the base or kill everyone and collect enough resources...In both cases it is always more beneficial for players to fight it out than to circle around each other trying to cap.

[Livewyr]

Xyre, on 13 May 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

I have no problem with mediums/lights breaking off, it is only too their advantage in many cases(harass/scouting). The only problem I have is fast caps, because they are a huge waste of peoples time(loading, getting in game, getting to positions, then pop "cap" for 25k c-bills) Lights can fill numerous roles which can be really fun and helpful, but when one light decides they will end the battle for everyone quickly with a fast cap I certainly understand why they would receive animosity for breaking off and doing such. All games are team death match, its either kill everyone and capture the base or kill everyone and collect enough resources...In both cases it is always more beneficial for players to fight it out than to circle around each other trying to cap.

I don't appreciate the unnecessary fast-cap either. I advocate (if the enemy has sent their entire time en masse through the middle) starting to cap early to break apart the Blob this thread has been discussing, and from there making a decision based on the enemy reaction. If they come back to fight you, great hop off and harass their returner (or kill it if you're able). If they ignore you and start slaughtering your team.. cap it.

[Xyre]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

I don't appreciate the unnecessary fast-cap either. I advocate (if the enemy has sent their entire time en masse through the middle) starting to cap early to break apart the Blob this thread has been discussing, and from there making a decision based on the enemy reaction. If they come back to fight you, great hop off and harass their returner (or kill it if you're able). If they ignore you and start slaughtering your team.. cap it.

Well there is another option that I see play out often and that is the team that is getting fast capped sends back maybe one or two mechs to stop the fast cap, the team that tried to fast cap still gets slaughtered then you have one or two lights running around for ages dodging as much as they can, shutting down around the map and again in general wasting peoples time. I think it really all comes down to time/reward. Lights can do something other mechs cant, they can drag out matches and quick cap. In both of those scenarios it is not only a waste of their own time, but all the other players...they would have benefited more by scouting/harassing engaging than dodging and caping. So I am sure you can understand why people would be unhappy at the idea of their time being wasted and why others could feel like its light mech trolling...all of it starts with a light mech breaking off to go for a fast cap, maneuvers or not.

[Livewyr]

Xyre, on 13 May 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Well there is another option that I see play out often and that is the team that is getting fast capped sends back maybe one or two mechs to stop the fast cap, the team that tried to fast cap still gets slaughtered then you have one or two lights running around for ages dodging as much as they can, shutting down around the map and again in general wasting peoples time. I think it really all comes down to time/reward. Lights can do something other mechs cant, they can drag out matches and quick cap. In both of those scenarios it is not only a waste of their own time, but all the other players...they would have benefited more by scouting/harassing engaging than dodging and caping. So I am sure you can understand why people would be unhappy at the idea of their time being wasted and why others could feel like its light mech trolling...all of it starts with a light mech breaking off to go for a fast cap, maneuvers or not.

I do understand maneuver griefing is a potential problem, but it's no different than a light mech being a part of a grand melee, being the only survivor and running around for several minutes afterwards..

It just depends on the attitude of the light mech.

Fast capping, or flank harassing is just one of the more useful and impacting things a light mech can do.. arguably much more impact that trying to straight up fight.

[Xyre]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

I do understand maneuver griefing is a potential problem, but it's no different than a light mech being a part of a grand melee, being the only survivor and running around for several minutes afterwards..

It just depends on the attitude of the light mech.

Fast capping, or flank harassing is just one of the more useful and impacting things a light mech can do.. arguably much more impact that trying to straight up fight.

You are right, it is no different and in both of those cases the light would have benefited more fighting to the death and saving their time, as well as others, than playing hide and seek for ages. So my counter-argument to not liking the blob mentality people being unhappy at lights is this, if all lights were like you and didnt waste peoples time consistently then people wouldnt complain...as it stands now people have every reason to complain at lights wasting peoples time to no ones benefit. Since you are aware of the common intentional/unintentional light griefing, then I am sure you realize that you are justifying griefers, as well as yourself, by saying, "Lights are just using their maneuvers/being tactical you have no right to complain"

[Livewyr]

I was with you up until the end.

I see running straight to the enemy base and full capping (especially before your team has seen the opponent) as a waste of time.
I don't see running straight to the enemy's base (or scouting their location for your team, then going to their base) and beginning a cap/threatening a cap as a waste of time. that forces them to react and gives your team initiative.

I advocate intelligent use of the latter. My "beef" is that the immediate reaction to starting a base cap from both sides is one of labeling cowardice, cheese, or trolling... because it is not straight forward fighting.

[Dimzi]

I think there is a serious problem with the difference in C-bills you receive when you get 4 kills 3 assists vs 1 Cap (Assault) or constantly capping nodes (Conquest). The game rewards you for loading up your Assault mech with wham blamo weapons and shooting at as many things as possible. This behavior is only amplified with the start of "Leaderboards" with MC rewards for top score. What is the only way to get a top score in MWO? Kills, component destruction, assists.

Obviously the effectiveness of Gauss/ERPPC/PPC at point blank range is a problem as well but that point has been made.

[Xyre]

Livewyr, on 13 May 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I was with you up until the end.

I see running straight to the enemy base and full capping (especially before your team has seen the opponent) as a waste of time.
I don't see running straight to the enemy's base (or scouting their location for your team, then going to their base) and beginning a cap/threatening a cap as a waste of time. that forces them to react and gives your team initiative.

I advocate intelligent use of the latter. My "beef" is that the immediate reaction to starting a base cap from both sides is one of labeling cowardice, cheese, or trolling... because it is not straight forward fighting.

Sorry if I lost you, my point was that if all lights played like you(tried to cap just to pull out of position) then there would be no hate...however a full cap happens far too often, time griefing in numerous various ways intentionally/unintentionally happens far too often (I say unintentionally griefing because many times I know lights run even when their team has no shot of winning because they are scared of dying and its instinct, that doesnt mean its not wasting everyones time)

Your gripe with people being unhappy is based on your intentions and how you play. Your argument justifies not just yourself, but anyone who wastes others time, I am merely giving you the counter-argument of, many people do not play like you and that is why people complain.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

It's annoying, but it's part of the game. I've never seen a fastcap situation where the defender team couldn't make it back to their base in time. It's just a hassle, but that's it. So you don't like being hassled when you want to concentrate on the big battle, maybe get some kills...you know, the whole reason you're here. But when you lost to a fast cap, that's supposed to be a lesson.

There are things you can incorporate into your game to beat the fast cap. This is possibly what people should do anyway. In the opposite direction of the main force is usually where the Raven 3L or the Jenner will try sneaking in. So sending a scout or a medium to walk through the side streets while the main force goes up the main avenue will catch someone trying to be stealthy. Or even leaving a mech to lag behind so they can easily return to base if a base cap is going to happen. It's usually early in the battle, so if it doesn't happen, they can rejoin the battle, and maybe even surprise attack.

To just say it's lame and people doing it are wasting time. Or even having gentleman's agreements to not cap. That's all looking at it the wrong way. I played in beta and we used to guard the base, it was an accepted thing, because capping was the whole point. Then they changed the point scheme, took away repair costs, gave us Conquest modes, and suddenly capping is a **** move? That's a strange mutation to happen in only a relative few months.

How about this: The Capture accelerator module should only work in Conquest. That's a way to meet in the middle. To ensure that no single mech can cap a base before the team can come defend if they decide to bother.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 13 May 2013 - 09:11 PM.