396 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

I've never understood the Alpine thing. I actually have a higher win rate from the Lower Base and HATE launching the upper. But then I also don't run up the gut, but flank either side of the map where I can get within 500 meters with minimal sniping.

Then again, I prefer to run a JagerKanone, so long range is not my game, nor thunder thighed immobility.

The number one reason I see the deaths on the heat amp are because most players seem intent on one of 2 tactics... blind charge, or hide behind the lower ridge, milling like sheep waiting to be slaughtered.

Why, because as you say, the don't understand that maneuvering is the most OP thing in the game, and that reacting is death, whereas dictating when and where you fight is (usually) victory.

That said, I am fine with capping as a distraction or a last gasp win tactic. but if you cap out when there is still a legit battle and chance to win for your team by combat, you ARE the problem. I didn't come here to play PogoStick Alpha-Mash, or CapRace 2000. I came to fight giant robots, of all sizes.

As for the assertions that lights and mediums can't brawl...... guess you shouldn't have relied on Lagshield instead of learning how to think and how to drive. The Spider, even with HSR is a bloody nuisance of the highest order, and wolfpacks still tear overextended mechs to shreds.

But that's the key.. you can't run into the mix and bounce off everything with impunity anymore. You have to think. I have been running the Trial Jenner quite a bit. Am averaging 2 kills per match with it. I scout (which actually involves relaying info BACK to the team kiddies), I cap dance, harass, and more than anything else cause hotheads to overextend. If they sick another light on me, the goal is lure it back where my team can focus fire it into oblivion. Getting into a 1 on 1 duel, unless it's to stop a base cap, is pretty much a waste. Conversely, I get a Hunchie, Heavy or Assault drawn off? It's almost childsplay to kill them solo. Yes, they can leg you now, and kill you should you get predictable, or they have some luck, but you still have mobilty in spades. Uses those JJs to jink and juke, stop running in the same exact circle pattern, and NEVER run a straight line.


AKA.... think. Something it seems too often the majority of people are incapable of.

[MrZakalwe]

Livewyr, on 16 May 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

(I'd like to capping to be reworked- something similar to WoT if need be)

But if your team has no lights, yeah that does suck, you'll have to assume the enemy does, and leave a heavier mech at the base. (Wanna cure that? Encourage people to play lighter mechs: That's what this thread was generated by, cripple lights and meds don't get played much... so you can have games where you don't have a light on your team.)

No leaving a heavier mech at base is a bad idea as then if the enemy doesn't do the same you are now 8v7. Bad tactical choice.

If you dont have lights the only sound choice is to stay in or close to your base.

[Livewyr]

I typically have no problem legging a light with heavy weapons. (Especially in a jagerbomb.. they get about 1-2 chances.. then they're dead.)

Brawling in a light is stupid.
You can scout in an Atlas, doesn't make it good.

Agility only worked with the lagshield because you couldn't get your leg shot off in one strike, on sight.
Now you can.. and now you're literally just running around (janking or not) until someone that can click their mouse at the right time removes you from the fight.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 16 May 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

I typically have no problem legging a light with heavy weapons. (Especially in a jagerbomb.. they get about 1-2 chances.. then they're dead.)

Brawling in a light is stupid.
You can scout in an Atlas, doesn't make it good.

Agility only worked with the lagshield because you couldn't get your leg shot off in one strike, on sight.
Now you can.. and now you're literally just running around (janking or not) until someone that can click their mouse at the right time removes you from the fight.

Funny, even in competitive 8 man, where (usually) I am facing better players, I have been legged all of a handful of times.

Agility still works fine... IF you know how to use it. Lights still work fine. IF you know how to use them. Not my problem people let Lagshield replace learning how to play. But by all means, keep promoting the myths. Only makes my job easier.

Are Lightes premier brawlers? No. And guess what? They aren't meant to be. But fought SMART, they are still bloody effective. And smart isn't playing CpaWarrior Onliine. If that is where you are in the game, why not, IDK ,actually spend your time playing something FUN, and allow the rest of us who are not having the same issue continue to play?

I'd love to see you explain to Wispsy, or Koreanese or DEX47 how nonviable their lights are. While they are dissecting your Jagerbomb.

[Lostdragon]

I would be very interested to know my ELO and more details on how it works. I did a little experiment last night while working on mastering Jenners. I played 10 games in my K (I had unlocked basics on the other two and when I started this was 5/8 on this varuant). Then I played 10 games on my CTF 3D, which has elites unlocked working toward master. I recorded how many ilghts were in each game. Here are the results:

Average Lights per Game (l/g)
JR7-K: 2.8
CTF-3D: 0.8

Median l/g

JR7-K: 3
CTF-3D: 1

This is obviously a very small sample but it is pretty much in line with what I thought was happening. When I play lights I usually get teamed with more lights, when I play heavier mechs there are fewer lights on my team.

I don't know if this is a function of ELO or what, but the distribution of light mechs seems to be skewed for me. I do have significantly more games played and better K/D in the 3D, but my W/L record in the K is a lot better.

If the ELO on my 3D is higher that may be indicative that fewer players can achieve good ELO with lights, thus games in higher ELO brackets have less lights than lower brackets. If that is the case it could be the source of a lot of frustration.

This is of course all just theory based on anecdotal evidence and a small amount of data, but it does make sense to me that at higher ELO lights would be more rare because you are playing against people who optimize load outs and can aim, making one shot or two shot kills against lights much more common. That would push more lights to cap than enter the fray.... Just some ideas on why things may be the way they are.

Edited by Lostdragon, 16 May 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[Prezimonto]

I'll say it again: as long as players demand "kill moar robots!" the devs will do that and this game will devolve to assaults and heavies even more than it is.

People talk about how medium and light mechs were the backbone of the IS... it's because they're versatile in multiple directions, they can achieve goals other than just "kill enemy mechs better". That's what Assaults are designed to do... kill mechs.

Until actual objectives/mission style play, where multiple goals and in the works, mediums won't have a place.

[Fate 6]

I think you misinterpreted why mediums and lights are getting the shaft. No tonnage limits. No disadvantage for taking a larger mech, other than not being able to go and cap. So, if you run a light it pretty much makes your only option capping, right? If you actually want to run around shooting anything you have to 1)duel light vs light or 2)take a heavier mech.

I run a medium and I go and fight people, but because I'm the only medium on the battlefield it's easy for a few guys on the other team to just pop a torso off.

[Greyfyl]

Livewyr, on 12 May 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

It's almost as if I asked for an example from the audience of Card Carrying member of the Assault Racket.



I haven't seen the full 8man Atlas team, but I have seen 6 ER/PPC assaults and a couple of Ravens or Jenners pull that stunt.

If I see that, I personally would be more than content leaving one light mech to keep an eye on enemy movement, and have everyone else on my team minimize, check e-mails, peruse the forums, etc.. just stay on TS until the other team decides to get off their duff.

So who in the world would want to play that game? Nobody in their right mind. Heaven forbid you get to be the 'lucky' player in a light mech that gets to watch them sit there for 15 minutes while all your buddies are watching ****. Players will ALWAYS gravitate to the easiest path, that's why it takes INTELLIGENT decisions by the game developers to keep the game interesting. This isn't rocket science people.

Edited by Greyfyl, 16 May 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 May 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Funny, even in competitive 8 man, where (usually) I am facing better players, I have been legged all of a handful of times.

Agility still works fine... IF you know how to use it. Lights still work fine. IF you know how to use them. Not my problem people let Lagshield replace learning how to play. But by all means, keep promoting the myths. Only makes my job easier.

Are Lightes premier brawlers? No. And guess what? They aren't meant to be. But fought SMART, they are still bloody effective. And smart isn't playing CpaWarrior Onliine. If that is where you are in the game, why not, IDK ,actually spend your time playing something FUN, and allow the rest of us who are not having the same issue continue to play?

I'd love to see you explain to Wispsy, or Koreanese or DEX47 how nonviable their lights are. While they are dissecting your Jagerbomb.

Bringing up exceptional players like Whisp, or Kor doesn't help your case...because they're EXCEPTIONal....and even so.. I'm fairly confident that myself in my jagerbomb in a 1v1 against any of them in brawling light mechs, would come out on top. It would not be because I'm any better than any of them, it would be because HSR made it possible for my 40pt pinpoint alpha strike to hit them with more consistency, I only need to connect 1-2 times with that AC40 before they're sitting ducks.. and like many people.. I can aim.

(maybe 3-4 times if they were in a raven because when you hit a raven in the leg a few times and it registers head, torso, and arm...)

[general] Brawling in lightmechs is done.. people just don't realize it. (That doesn't make a lightmech useless by any stretch, just pointless in a brawl.)

---------------------------
btw: People need to quit building the CapWarrior online straw-man. I've not advocated caprushing to end the match in 2 minutes.. I won't, because I don't support that. I support the use of the cap as a match orientation changer, and IF NEED BE, enforcing that game changer by capping.

(Need is qualified by:
They didn't send anyone back
&
Your combat unit is decimated.)

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 16 May 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Bringing up exceptional players like Whisp, or Kor doesn't help your case...because they're EXCEPTIONal....and even so.. I'm fairly confident that myself in my jagerbomb in a 1v1 against any of them in brawling light mechs, would come out on top. It would not be because I'm any better than any of them, it would be because HSR made it possible for my 40pt pinpoint alpha strike to hit them with more consistency, I only need to connect 1-2 times with that AC40 before they're sitting ducks.. and like many people.. I can aim.

(maybe 3-4 times if they were in a raven because when you hit a raven in the leg a few times and it registers head, torso, and arm...)

[general] Brawling in lightmechs is done.. people just don't realize it. (That doesn't make a lightmech useless by any stretch, just pointless in a brawl.)

---------------------------
btw: People need to quit building the CapWarrior online straw-man. I've not advocated caprushing to end the match in 2 minutes.. I won't, because I don't support that. I support the use of the cap as a match orientation changer, and IF NEED BE, enforcing that game changer by capping.

(Need is qualified by:
They didn't send anyone back
&
Your combat unit is decimated.)

largely good points (though I was actually pointing out that basically, a Light SHOULD only be a successful brawler against the big boys with an exceptional pilot. I don't see why people rail at this thought.. since Lights are nto meant to brawl except agaist their own weight class), but I want to see you vs Kor or Wisp. I've faced you a time or two too, and you are good (and hey, I am a fellow Jagerbomber) but those guys? Well, lemme get mah popcorn ready, lol.

[Livewyr]

Greyfyl, on 16 May 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

So who in the world would want to play that game? Nobody in their right mind. Heaven forbid you get to be the 'lucky' player in a light mech that gets to watch them sit there for 15 minutes while all your buddies are watching ****. Players will ALWAYS gravitate to the easiest path, that's why it takes INTELLIGENT decisions by the game developers to keep the game interesting. This isn't rocket science people.

The developers need to overhaul the capping system (making it easier to defend) but players need to start thinking about the consequences of their actions.

If you bring an assault mech, you're limiting your mobility- this makes you insufficient as a maneuver piece
They've figured that one out which has led to:
Trying to ensure they're not outmaneuvered because it isn't fun for them. (They brought a strictly bruiser, and some people aren't lining up to be bruised- of course it's not fun.. for them)

People who didn't bring bruisers don't generally have much fun playing the bruiser's game..
(the complaints about mediums are evidence.. people are trying to turn them into scouts or heavies by changing their speed/armor stats)

Thus they maneuver.. and rather than the Bruisers figuring out to spread forces to cover/guard ground, they continue a vicious cycle of keeping in a blob for safety in numbers, then belittling the non-bruiser types for not playing their game.

PGi can help with fixing cap mechanics to make it easier to defend.. but this is a player problem.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 May 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

largely good points (though I was actually pointing out that basically, a Light SHOULD only be a successful brawler against the big boys with an exceptional pilot. I don't see why people rail at this thought.. since Lights are nto meant to brawl except agaist their own weight class), but I want to see you vs Kor or Wisp. I've faced you a time or two too, and you are good (and hey, I am a fellow Jagerbomber) but those guys? Well, lemme get mah popcorn ready, lol.

I did duel Wispy once, Founders Jenner (SRM4s and Small lasers) versus his Spider 5-D (Medium Pulse I think it was)
It was a fantastic duel, lots of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon effects with Jumpjets, but I did come out on top.

(It could've gone either way, until I once got to predict precisely where he was going to jump, so I jumped up and gave him a hug in mid-air, with SRM8.. this was before HSR and the Missile nerf...and it opened up a side torso to be finished.)

He's very good, I wouldn't mind saying better than I (especially now.. I'm so rusty), but he's not invincible.

Edited by Livewyr, 16 May 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

@OP: I think people should play however they want. If they want to cap, they should. If they want to join the assault racket, they should. And fortunately, that's what happening right now. Everyone's doing what they want. And it's clearly illustrating a major flaw.

The problem isn't the players, it's the game. Do you know why people aren't being patient and probing the enemy lines, using their speed to catch the enemy out of position so they can cap? Because they don't think it's fun. And that's not the players' fault, that's the game's fault.

The key to a good game is rewarding the behavior you want to see, and clearly the reward in this game is not great enough to create good teamwork. Otherwise people would be doing it. The battle isn't won by public awareness programs or propaganda. The game needs to change if you want the players to change.

[Livewyr]

Alistair Winter, on 16 May 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

@OP: I think people should play however they want. If they want to cap, they should. If they want to join the assault racket, they should. And fortunately, that's what happening right now. Everyone's doing what they want. And it's clearly illustrating a major flaw.

(For the record, not everyone who drives an assault mech is in the assault racket, only the people who drive assault mechs then get mad at the people who don't, for not acting like assaults.)

Alistair Winter, on 16 May 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

The problem isn't the players, it's the game. Do you know why people aren't being patient and probing the enemy lines, using their speed to catch the enemy out of position so they can cap? Because they don't think it's fun. And that's not the players' fault, that's the game's fault.

I don't mind if someone doesn't want to do recon, or use objectives to change the direction of the match. I really don't care if they want to walk towards the enemy put up their dukes and have it out.. that's fine.. that's WHY assaults and heavies exist.. that is their role. If playing an assault is fun for you, great, play an assault.

My problem is, that not everyone wants to play that way. (I know that I personally play all the roles, because I enjoy changing up the flavor at will.)
My problem is that the people who don't want to play that way, and would rather use objectives and maneuverability to effect the outcome, are not only being undervalued, but they're being insulted for it. (thus the creation of a racket)

Alistair Winter, on 16 May 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

The key to a good game is rewarding the behavior you want to see, and clearly the reward in this game is not great enough to create good teamwork. Otherwise people would be doing it. The battle isn't won by public awareness programs or propaganda. The game needs to change if you want the players to change.

The only things I can think of for PGI to do:
Rework base caps. That's the only neutral thing that you can control whether people abuse it or not.
Buff rewards for cap (if they make it harder to cap.)
Create/buff rewards for locating a previously unknown enemy, or an enemy that hasn't been spotted in the last 60-100 seconds.
And any other reasonable mechanic based meta.

I don't think PGI can reward the flank maneuver (or any maneuver oriented achievement) since there is no way to effectively program recognition of that, so that will always be up to the team-minded victory-oriented maneuver player. (Thankless task..)

I got excited when PGI said the game would be based on role warfare.. I think PGI (and very many players) need to rethink what "role warfare" means.

[Alistair Winter]

Livewyr, on 16 May 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

(For the record, not everyone who drives an assault mech is in the assault racket, only the people who drive assault mechs then get mad at the people who don't, for not acting like assaults.)

I got that.

Livewyr, on 16 May 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

My problem is, that not everyone wants to play that way. (I know that I personally play all the roles, because I enjoy changing up the flavor at will.)
My problem is that the people who don't want to play that way, and would rather use objectives and maneuverability to effect the outcome, are not only being undervalued, but they're being insulted for it. (thus the creation of a racket)

And that problem is rooted in the fact that people have different conceptions of what a fun game is. As long as people have different views on what's fun and what's boring, they're going to insult each other. Because this is the internet, where you insult strangers if you disagree with them. That's not going to change for a long time.

The only way to stop the insults is to remove the reason the insults are happening in the first place. Or at least remove as many factors as possible. For example, in a FPS game without a time limit, camping is a big problem. If there's a very strict time limit, then camping isn't such a big deal. Camping very rarely occurs in MW:O, because matches are over very quickly, mechs are very slow and there's very little aim penalty from moving, unlike games like CounterStrike. When camping does occur, it's usually because the map encourages it by making one spawn position vastly superior to the other (e.g. River City)

So the biggest problem in many FPS multiplayer games is solved in MW:O by good gamedesign. They've removed incentive to camp.

They could do the same with the whole cap / brawl debate. Change the mission objective to something else, like CTF or Escort mission (ala CS Hostage Rescue), something that's been proven to work in other games, and you've removed a factor that leads to insults.

Livewyr, on 16 May 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

The only things I can think of for PGI to do:
Rework base caps. That's the only neutral thing that you can control whether people abuse it or not.
Buff rewards for cap (if they make it harder to cap.)
Create/buff rewards for locating a previously unknown enemy, or an enemy that hasn't been spotted in the last 60-100 seconds.
And any other reasonable mechanic based meta.

None of these solutions address what I believe is the real problem: boring gameplay.

I've sold 25 of my 35 mechs, most of which were mastered. I don't want any new mechs. I have mastered all my remaining mechs. I don't need C-bills, I don't need XP. The only thing that matters to me is the joy of the game. And giving me a +100 XP bonus for locating enemies doesn't change that.

Mind you, I came to this game to be a scout. I wanted to pilot a Raven 3L and be all about information warfare. But when that part of the game is so dull, the XP and C-bill reward is irrelevant.

Livewyr, on 16 May 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

I got excited when PGI said the game would be based on role warfare.. I think PGI (and very many players) need to rethink what "role warfare" means.

I agree whole-heartedly.

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 16 May 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

I did duel Whispy once, Founders Jenner (SRM4s and Small lasers) versus his Spider 5-D (Medium Pulse I think it was)
It was a fantastic duel, lots of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon effects with Jumpjets, but I did come out on top.

(It could've gone either way, until I once got to predict precisely where he was going to jump, so I jumped up and gave him a hug in mid-air, with SRM8.. this was before HSR and the Missile nerf...and it opened up a side torso to be finished.)

He's very good, I wouldn't mind saying better than I (especially now.. I'm so rusty), but he's not invincible.

Lol, no, no he's not (just don't tell him that...it makes him angry... though that might be good.. then he gets over-focused and your team can pick him apart). And I would rather fight Wispy in a Light than my usual Heavy. I don't think I am being too arrogant to say I'm pretty dang good boom-jagging, but I duel lights much better in mechs under 50 tons.

And at least back in the day.. Wisp was a horrible scout..... instead of reporting position, he'd just start sowing chaos and killing the other team, lol. I miss that Limey bum!

[Donas]

Kentiah, on 15 May 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

I'm confused, are you saying you think a mech made to outmaneuver retardedly slow mechs based on more firepower is not allowed to do its job when it's the last one left, and is forced to fight possibly multiple heavier mechs? That sounds utterly stupid. If your all assault team is winning and you know they have a light left, you better have a person or two start heading back if you outnumber them enough, it's quite daft to think you deserve to win because you picked a big mech and someone else picked a light mech and their team is lacking in straight firepower. If they get extra c-bills for capping, more power to em. This whole assault thing is pretty absurd when you take into account the 200 tonnage difference allowed, that's the difference between a team having 4 medium mechs, and the enemy having 3-4 assaults in their place.

That being said, I get 500+ damage in a fair number of matches with my Jenner, and once this beagle change happens, it'll be even more glorious, but if a match is going south, you can damn well be sure I'm gonna try to cap, as well as using the caps to try to pull back some of their forces as well. There's nothing wrong with capping, and is a stupid notion to look down on it at all, really. Yes, early game cappers can be annoying, but you guys act like there's any queue time at all. I think the real issue is that you guys pick these stupidly slow mechs, and the game can be over before you even reach combat. It'll be nice if there's less assaults in matches some day, having 4+ in a match is pretty absurd.

Until then, people picking very slow mechs will continue to cry about getting capped.

Not at all what I'm saying. I fully support capping in assault. A brief search of any of my posts in topics such as this will show that I completely support capping against a high firepower slow team that oversxtends its line of attack beyond what it is capable of reacting back from. (in fact, I even mention it in the post you quoted)

The above suggestion was a means of ending a match-style that does not have capping as a victory condition. We do not currently have such a gameplay mode, so that suggestion was brainstorming at a means to making one feasible.

Edited by Donas, 16 May 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Livewyr]

Alistair Winter, on 16 May 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

And that problem is rooted in the fact that people have different conceptions of what a fun game is. As long as people have different views on what's fun and what's boring, they're going to insult each other. Because this is the internet, where you insult strangers if you disagree with them. That's not going to change for a long time.

Yeah, that's true, I won't ever be able to stop that. *grumble*
However, I can still encourage the people they insult, to do it (responsibly) anyways by discrediting the insults for what they are: ultimately, baseless and selfish.

Alistair Winter, on 16 May 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

The only way to stop the insults is to remove the reason the insults are happening in the first place. Or at least remove as many factors as possible. For example, in a FPS game without a time limit, camping is a big problem. If there's a very strict time limit, then camping isn't such a big deal. Camping very rarely occurs in MW:O, because matches are over very quickly, mechs are very slow and there's very little aim penalty from moving, unlike games like CounterStrike. When camping does occur, it's usually because the map encourages it by making one spawn position vastly superior to the other (e.g. River City)

So the biggest problem in many FPS multiplayer games is solved in MW:O by good gamedesign. They've removed incentive to camp.

Agreed, sorta.
When I think of comparing MW:O to a mainstream FPS (like CoD, or Halo, etc), I don't think comparing incentives is fair because of two things. First: MW:O is a thinking mans shooter in that not everyone can run across the map inside 30 seconds (a specific role). Second:once you see a target, it isn't as quick as putting your cross-hairs on them and holding down the trigger until they're dead. You can't kill them that quickly (usually) and you still have to especially watch your own hide because there is no respawn. (One of the things I'm personally more thankful for.)

MWO the GAME does encourage camping by at least one person as part of role warfare. (CoD doesn't have role warfare.) Camping being another term for guarding in this case. The issue here is, that players [of the assault racket] are selfish and can't stand the idea of performing one of their roles in role warfare.
(One of the roles of a heavy/assault is area denial... camping/guarding.) I understand people all want to be where the action is, but this game just isn't for them. "Where the action is,"(WTAI for short) is primarily the realm of heavies and assaults. Mediums and Lights can harass WTAI, but they can't directly engage as effectively since they'd be killed easily. As a result, they're much more effective in controlling the battlefield by the use of objectives and their maneuverability.

I know there are lights and mediums out there that just want to fight/brawl and be WTAI and though I disagree with it tactically, I don't mind them doing that. My goal in a match, my source of fun in a match (when in a light/med) is having a profound impact on the match. Something I generally won't do using pewpewwooshwoosh, but something I'm almost guaranteed to do using my actual strength; maneuverability.

Now, that roundabout tangent comes back to camping: MWO doesn't encourage camping the way mainstream twitch shooters do (giving yourself the extra second and initiative on targeting for insta-gib) but it does encourage it as one of the roles of the assaults, in regards to lights and mediums. Area denial against their maneuver strength. Does that mean the whole team should sit back at base? No, because that doesn't perform the other role of heavies/assaults: direct aggression.

TL;DR MWO kinda requires camping (or keeping a maneuver piece near by) to defend objectives, just so few people want to do it because it isn't immediately rewarding. (And it isn't personally monetarily rewarding in the current system.)

Alistair Winter, on 16 May 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

They could do the same with the whole cap / brawl debate. Change the mission objective to something else, like CTF or Escort mission (ala CS Hostage Rescue), something that's been proven to work in other games, and you've removed a factor that leads to insults.

I think given current player attitude, they'd still have a set of unspoken "rules" where the opposing team isn't allowed mess with flag or the escorted instead of directly engaging their mechs. (The "I came here to keel robits." thing.)

Alistair Winter, on 16 May 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

None of these solutions address what I believe is the real problem: boring gameplay.

I've sold 25 of my 35 mechs, most of which were mastered. I don't want any new mechs. I have mastered all my remaining mechs. I don't need C-bills, I don't need XP. The only thing that matters to me is the joy of the game. And giving me a +100 XP bonus for locating enemies doesn't change that.

I think Boring game-play is a result of 2 dimensional play.
The roles of ECM/Missiles/BAP/AMS?/Artemis/TAG/NARC really aren't leading to roles.
ECM is just the new meta for removing missiles from the field. (Changing a little bit shortly with BAP buff)
Missiles?
BAP is a little better than standard sensors- but given that your eyes can see the mechs in LoS well before BAP does, it really doesn't aid in the scouting role. (In Tourmaline and Alpine, i can see mechs visually out towards 1600 meters or so (maybe farther, never checked to be sure) but with BAP/Sensors.. best I get is a little less than 1200.. nice for missiles, utterly useless for scouting on larger maps.
What party needs an AMS? What player who started in the last 4 months knows what the hell an AMS is?
TAG is supposed to be a missile support weapon, but was given to scouts with a range boost, which was great on the small maps, utterly garbage on the large maps.
Dafuq is a NARC?

Ironically- Scouts have no aided role in Information warfare. Their speed is the only thing that makes them a scout.
Support? Well I guess you could call Sniping "direct support" though it seems to be the standard of fighting right now, with brawler supports incase the enemy gets close... Another irony.

If they gave roles back to mechs with equipment that actually aided those roles and improved upon their strengths- you might have a bit more role warfare, and a bit less 2D combat.

Alistair Winter, on 16 May 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Mind you, I came to this game to be a scout. I wanted to pilot a Raven 3L and be all about information warfare. But when that part of the game is so dull, the XP and C-bill reward is irrelevant.

Tell me about it, I came here thinking: Erhmegerd! Catapult missile support! (profound impact with range) and Info Warfare scouting! (Profound impact with information manipulation)

And here I am, in a thread defending [role warfare] (pretty much by myself since PGI has kinda screwed it up thus far)...

Edited by Livewyr, 17 May 2013 - 04:48 AM.

[RG Notch]

Livewyr, on 16 May 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

The developers need to overhaul the capping system (making it easier to defend) but players need to start thinking about the consequences of their actions.

If you bring an assault mech, you're limiting your mobility- this makes you insufficient as a maneuver piece
They've figured that one out which has led to:
Trying to ensure they're not outmaneuvered because it isn't fun for them. (They brought a strictly bruiser, and some people aren't lining up to be bruised- of course it's not fun.. for them)

People who didn't bring bruisers don't generally have much fun playing the bruiser's game..
(the complaints about mediums are evidence.. people are trying to turn them into scouts or heavies by changing their speed/armor stats)

Thus they maneuver.. and rather than the Bruisers figuring out to spread forces to cover/guard ground, they continue a vicious cycle of keeping in a blob for safety in numbers, then belittling the non-bruiser types for not playing their game.

PGi can help with fixing cap mechanics to make it easier to defend.. but this is a player problem.

Yes the player problem is not seeing any options but cap warrior or getting bruised by heavier mechs. I don't always play big slow boats and I don't feel the need to play capwarrior when I don't. If other people can't manage to do anything besides run to the Red Square if they aren't in an assault mech, that's the problem.

[Livewyr]

Edited most recent post for Alistair