396 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Chavette, on 17 May 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Livewyr I think you have some good insights, and good ideas, but arguing over pug tactics is the stupidest thing of all time! All time!

It's not pug tactics, it's pug stupidity towards someone else using tactics they don't use(or like).

(The OP had a bit of troll mixed in to make the thread popular so I could have good conversations)

[Keifomofutu]

Zerberus, on 17 May 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Teams are 8 vs 8, later 12 vs 12, not 8+1 vs Keifomofutu`s 8.

If one mech runs off to cap, then that team is down 1 mech to start with.

If one mech runs to stop him, it is now 8-1 vs 8-1 at the front line, that is EQUAL, as opposed to before where the defenders were UP one mech and should have used that advantage to weaken teh forces. But is is still now EQUAL, not "def team one down", you had the greater numbers to start with. Unless your team was capping, too.

If three mechs stop teh cap, they should be competent enough to at least leg the capper if not destroy him. Enemy team loses one again, def team should theoretically be up by 2 at this point, in this situation the front line was down 2 men (but again, from being up one man at the beginning) but will quickly be reinforced by 3 bringing it back to it`s original strength. Unless your team was capping, too.

If the entire team falls bach, the scout should most definitely be toast, leaving the def team again up at least one mech. Unless your team was capping, too.

Basic arithmetic fails to prove your point, it actually does more to disprove it.

So you either suck badly at basic math, or you are intentionally falsely portraying the defending team as outnumbered to add false clout to your argument... Or your team is capping, too, and your entire argument and position are therefore wholly invalid.

If on the other hand you`re regularly dropping with only 7 that is a matchmaking issue, not a tactics and game modes issue, and your criticisms are being voiced towards a game mechanic that is entirely unrelated to the actual cause of your sub-par playing experience.

There is no other logical explanation for your team to always be outnumbered in the fashion you portray.

150km/h. The light doesn't have to be away from his team long. Often he can hit the base long before any real fighting gets started in earnest. He can get back and help his team at any time. Heavier mechs will take much longer to regroup with their team. Hence no risk strategy. Everyone else has to commit the light can flit across the battlefield at will.

Not that he shouldn't be able to, but he shouldn't be able to do a lone wolf cap of the base as quickly as he does on those massive maps.

[Ensaine]

Look, I'm from the I can't stand capping school, PRESENTLY.......

As a guy who started MY organized teamplay in shooter type games with Quakeworld/MegaTeamFortress, I'm seeing a few things here that are causing this angst. As I just woke up, apologies in advance if this move around a bit ......

I must say, that I have ALWAYS been about teamwork, and off the wall, non-standard strategies for static maps like say, 2fort5, which anyone from most any FPS has played on. I would love to do the same here, but the current design, I simply do not like.

So, I thought about HOW capping can be made viable for most of the unwashed masses.....as now, the capping only pays out 25k....so, how about making the cap award considerably higher. Just a number from my butt? Say it's now 50k, or even 75k. And a few more XP's for capping also.......

Capping would then be viable, and expected, and respected. Teams would not blob up the 3 line in River City, run up the hill to Upper, engage enemy blob = total chaos anymore. Not EXPECTING 1-2 mechs to instantly apply pressure to their base.

Role Warfare would make a re-emergence. Mediums got kick, and more maneuverability in those tight places near those RC bases.........Lance roles would be more important.

Just make capping more lucrative.

But.....

We'll still have PLENTY of Blob people out there. Ones who don't use Teamspeak/comms, or read the website, or the forums. Solo players who log on an hour a night, then go watch Grey's .........

Unfortunately, the introduction to this game, for NON-MW fans, is very bloody. Tons of text scattered literally everywhere. Youtube video's are the main instructional tutorial, with some forum/buried/hidden strategy guides, and a Training Grounds where we can't pick a map to learn/study/optimize heat on ..... can take 10 or more tries to hit Caustic..........


Solution: make a CoD style introduction 'level'. Game starts. Hit 'W' to run, 'C' to squat, pick up the pistol, shoot the target, Run, pick up the rifle. Throw grenade at instructor. Run that way, shoot the other way. Instructor discusses heat vs. environment briefly, as well as using cover, switching targets, all the basic important stuff.

It would have to be a bit longer than the CoD style, but not much. End it with a referral to the Strategy forums. Now, it's on the player. Player can also go back and re-do this training 'level' at any time. And can also pick ANY map for Training Grounds.

So, add value to capping, and EVERYONE gets flagged for the training 'level' once it goes live, like a Force To Read forum option by an admin. The 'l33t' players can escape out, but WHY..........???

This, in my eyes, fixes alot of things. Poptarts won't have a blob to shoot into. As more mechs will be incoming to those rear, sniping areas, it won't be as viable to hang behind one hill popping up and down all match. Poptarts will have to be on their toes.

In fact, the whole ranged and brawl game changes, just by making capping more valuable.

Until then, mech piloting in ALL circumstances is more important for me than capping, and that is the sole reason I dislike capping. I'd much rather mix it up, then just barely make it to my set up area and a base is getting stomped already, by either team, and a minute later, I'm in the mechlab.

I prefer, PRESENTLY, the higher C-Bills and XP payout, the experience pertaining to the piloting/combat tactics I used, and where I can improve, over never seeing an enemy, and ending with 0 damage.

If capping paid out better rewards, we'd all fight more, and cap when possible, and we all sing :
Kumbaya

Edited by Ensaine, 18 May 2013 - 04:46 AM.

[Mycrus]

the only way to make a grumble stick together...

[Keifomofutu]

Ensaine, on 18 May 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Look, I'm from the I can't stand capping school, PRESENTLY.......

As a guy who started MY organized teamplay in shooter type games with Quakeworld/MegaTeamFortress, I'm seeing a few things here that are causing this angst. As I just woke up, apologies in advance if this move around a bit ......

I must say, that I have ALWAYS been about teamwork, and off the wall, non-standard strategies for static maps like say, 2fort5, which anyone from most any FPS has played on. I would love to do the same here, but the current design, I simply do not like.

So, I thought about HOW capping can be made viable for most of the unwashed masses.....as now, the capping only pays out 25k....so, how about making the cap award considerably higher. Just a number from my butt? Say it's now 50k, or even 75k. And a few more XP's for capping also.......

Capping would then be viable, and expected, and respected. Teams would not blob up the 3 line in River City, run up the hill to Upper, engage enemy blob = total chaos anymore. Not EXPECTING 1-2 mechs to instantly apply pressure to their base.

Role Warfare would make a re-emergence. Mediums got kick, and more maneuverability in those tight places near those RC bases.........Lance roles would be more important.

Just make capping more lucrative.

But.....

We'll still have PLENTY of Blob people out there. Ones who don't use Teamspeak/comms, or read the website, or the forums. Solo players who log on an hour a night, then go watch Grey's .........

Unfortunately, the introduction to this game, for NON-MW fans, is very bloody. Tons of text scattered literally everywhere. Youtube video's are the main instructional tutorial, with some forum/buried/hidden strategy guides, and a Training Grounds where we can't pick a map to learn/study/optimize heat on ..... can take 10 or more tries to hit Caustic..........


Solution: make a CoD style introduction 'level'. Game starts. Hit 'W' to run, 'C' to squat, pick up the pistol, shoot the target, Run, pick up the rifle. Throw grenade at instructor. Run that way, shoot the other way. Instructor discusses heat vs. environment briefly, as well as using cover, switching targets, all the basic important stuff.

It would have to be a bit longer than the CoD style, but not much. End it with a referral to the Strategy forums. Now, it's on the player. Player can also go back and re-do this training 'level' at any time. And can also pick ANY map for Training Grounds.

So, add value to capping, and EVERYONE gets flagged for the training 'level' once it goes live, like a Force To Read forum option by an admin. The 'l33t' players can escape out, but WHY..........???

This, in my eyes, fixes alot of things. Poptarts won't have a blob to shoot into. As more mechs will be incoming to those rear, sniping areas, it won't be as viable to hang behind one hill popping up and down all match. Poptarts will have to be on their toes.

In fact, the whole ranged and brawl game changes, just by making capping more valuable.

Until then, mech piloting in ALL circumstances is more important for me than capping, and that is the sole reason I dislike capping. I'd much rather mix it up, then just barely make it to my set up area and a base is getting stomped already, by either team, and a minute later, I'm in the mechlab.

I prefer, PRESENTLY, the higher C-Bills and XP payout, the experience pertaining to the piloting/combat tactics I used, and where I can improve, over never seeing an enemy, and ending with 0 damage.

If capping paid out better rewards, we'd all fight more, and cap when possible, and we all sing :
Kumbaya

Sorry man it would be "CAP TRADES FOR EVERYONE!" We've had higher rewards for capping in the past. It's simply easier to play four 3 minute cap race matches instead of one twelve minute long grudgefest.

Think about how lights behave now. What do you usually see them do?
Hover around their own base guarding it.
Run off to the enemy base to cap it?
Or the third option of hovering around their heavies and assaults.

I see option two or three relatively equally and option 1 almost never.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 18 May 2013 - 10:13 PM.

[silentD11]

Keifomofutu, on 18 May 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

Sorry man it would be "CAP TRADES FOR EVERYONE!" We've had higher rewards for capping in the past. It's simply easier to play four 3 minute cap race matches instead of one twelve minute long grudgefest.

Think about how lights behave now. What do you usually see them do?
Hover around their own base guarding it.
Run off to the enemy base to cap it?
Or the third option of hovering around their heavies and assaults.

I see option two or three relatively equally and option 1 almost never.

Because it's not really the lights job to be defending a base. That fall back role is for fast heavies or mediums. Both of which are useless in the current TDM blob/firing line meta game. On large maps, even alpine, a dragon/cent/hunchie that clocks in fast can spot that 130-150kph light on his approach, they're laughably obvious to see (especially from the supposed worse lower side which starts with a clear view of the kline and the upper attack route and never loses till well past the halfway point). They're also fasts enough to get back to the pack if no attempt is made.

The reason they don't exist anymore is because in the player introduced TDM meta game they lack the firepower and armor to go up against the horde of assaults and heavies tricked out for maximum damage at the expense of all else.

So the TDM meta once again broke things. You know that most players are going to bring the biggest action figure to the match and mindlessly march forward so there is nothing to guard their base. Sticking around the heavier mechs you lack the firepower to do all that much or the armor and the lag shield that let you brawl is gone. So you're really only left with one glaringly obvious option. An option that wouldn't exist had people not decided to TDM, but once they do it turns into a win button because the other team threw out all sense of tactics before the match started.

TDM reduced the game to "boat the most of the best thing" and got rid of those who should be defending the base. This isn't a light player issue, it's an assault player and their made up code of honor issue. If you're getting capped and you wanted to brawl and picked a brawler, you did it to yourself.

[Keifomofutu]

silentD11, on 19 May 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

Because it's not really the lights job to be defending a base. That fall back role is for fast heavies or mediums. Both of which are useless in the current TDM blob/firing line meta game. On large maps, even alpine, a dragon/cent/hunchie that clocks in fast can spot that 130-150kph light on his approach, they're laughably obvious to see (especially from the supposed worse lower side which starts with a clear view of the kline and the upper attack route and never loses till well past the halfway point). They're also fasts enough to get back to the pack if no attempt is made.

The reason they don't exist anymore is because in the player introduced TDM meta game they lack the firepower and armor to go up against the horde of assaults and heavies tricked out for maximum damage at the expense of all else.

So the TDM meta once again broke things. You know that most players are going to bring the biggest action figure to the match and mindlessly march forward so there is nothing to guard their base. Sticking around the heavier mechs you lack the firepower to do all that much or the armor and the lag shield that let you brawl is gone. So you're really only left with one glaringly obvious option. An option that wouldn't exist had people not decided to TDM, but once they do it turns into a win button because the other team threw out all sense of tactics before the match started.

TDM reduced the game to "boat the most of the best thing" and got rid of those who should be defending the base. This isn't a light player issue, it's an assault player and their made up code of honor issue. If you're getting capped and you wanted to brawl and picked a brawler, you did it to yourself.

Again with the blaming players. It wasn't players who removed all rewards from capping. There is no honor code issue.

1)Capping is a poorly thought out and boring mechanic. Ergo cap defense is an even more poorly thought out and boring mechanic. Ring around the Oil Thingy? It's almost a troll it's such a terrible mechanic. People complained that the bases were too hidden in beta and basically forced any cap defender to run a brawler. So what did PGI do? Made it ten times worse. There is no risk to base capping because you have a million years warning to run off. It should be a risky thing standing in the opponent's base.

2)Capping rewards basically nothing. TDM rewards ten times the amount.

3)Capping gets exponentially easier the bigger the map gets. Caps are much more frequent on these massive maps.

Stop blaming players. PGI made the game so it is up to them to scale rewards and create interesting mechanics that will get players to care.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 19 May 2013 - 09:04 PM.

[silentD11]

Keifomofutu, on 19 May 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Again with the blaming players. It wasn't players who removed all rewards from capping. There is no honor code issue.

1)Capping is a poorly thought out and boring mechanic. Ergo cap defense is an even more poorly thought out and boring mechanic. Ring around the Oil Thingy? It's almost a troll it's such a terrible mechanic. People complained that the bases were too hidden in beta and basically forced any cap defender to run a brawler. So what did PGI do? Made it ten times worse. There is no risk to base capping because you have a million years warning to run off. It should be a risky thing standing in the opponent's base.

2)Capping rewards basically nothing. TDM rewards ten times the amount.

3)Capping gets exponentially easier the bigger the map gets. Caps are much more frequent on these massive maps.

Stop blaming players. PGI made the game so it is up to them to scale rewards and create interesting mechanics that will get players to care.

It is the players. Which is why need TDM on it's own mode. And we can just than ignore any complaints about balance that come out from it and PGI can work on the rest. And capping is risky when you run into properly thought out mediums that bother to make an effort to stop you. It's just the players refusing to do anything but TDM that removed the risk. So again, it's the players.

Edited by silentD11, 19 May 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Niko Snow, on 24 May 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Capping is a valid strategy

Great.
Can we have TDM then, and some kind of blanket ban on lighs? Then everybody will be happy. Those who want to cap can play the two old modes, while people like me go brawl and shoot each other in deathmatch.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Deathmatch, aka BattleMech Destruction Derby.

[LordBraxton]

Vassago Rain, on 24 May 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Great.
Can we have TDM then, and some kind of blanket ban on lighs? Then everybody will be happy. Those who want to cap can play the two old modes, while people like me go brawl and shoot each other in deathmatch.

To be fair Vassago, I hate capping.

But brawl?

How would we brawl in TDM without SRMs?

I digress however,

capping is only a big problem on the BIG maps, on conquest they end too fast and on assault the only viable defense is to camp base.

[Livewyr]

Vassago Rain, on 24 May 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Great.
Can we have TDM then, and some kind of blanket ban on lighs? Then everybody will be happy. Those who want to cap can play the two old modes, while people like me go brawl and shoot each other in deathmatch.

Not even being cliche- that would fracture the player base horribly. (Assault racket dream)

I'm assuming you're talking blanket ban on lights (though it sounds absurd to me) because of the concern of a fast mech prolonging the game.. currently avoided by the capture mechanic.

How then would you deal with:
Cicadas
Trebuchets
Cent 9-D/YLWs
Dragons

Doing the same thing?

-------------------------------

Capping needs to be easier to defend against; although I've noticed (personally), since LRMs have made a comeback and the prancing lines have returned to dynamic fights, being ninja-capped isn't an issue.

It just isn't happening as much, and when it does, it's being countered by lights and mediums.


What are the odds?