39 replies to this topic

[Just wanna play]

Okay, after having such a good time in the cataphract 2x i decided to buy my next phract to help get elite status, my choice? the gun toting, suppa slow 4x! okay so now i am having trouble figuring dis thang out, with a clear focus on ballistics, i cant help but feel lost when trying to get together a good, not cheesy (i hate cheesy) build, i have used 4 ac5, very good, but i cant help but feel i can do something more original then loading up with some ac5s and hoping for the best, so heres my attempt, any thoughts 4x vets? any phract vet advice welcome, gotta figure this thing out, i want to love it but i cant figure out whats right yet

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f9cc2eb30c282eb

to stay true to its design features, i want it to be a mostly brawling mech (ac10s being my "ranged" weapons)

and seriously, its as slow as an atlas, but its my fastest phract yet!

[Just wanna play]

ignore front to rear balance of armor, i just use regular values to show max armor there

[EmperorMyrf]

CTF-4X

My build is similar to yours except all your short range weapons are replaced by the original LL. All your weapons operate at one range so you don't have to think that hard, and you have enough ammo and heat efficiency to just keep on firing from mid-range. Avoid closing any distance less than 400m and stick with your assaults and you will be doing 500+ dmg easy.

Again, ignore armor distribution

Edit: also if you wanted you could add endo and upgrade to a STD 240 Engine. Pretty sure the only reason I haven't is I'm always short on cash from upgrading my other mechs

Edited by EmperorMyrf, 09 May 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[Zordicron]

Just a couple things, not comments on your loadout, just comments on the 4x.

Always use max standard engine in a 4x. Never XL.
-2x AC10 is a good loadout for a 4x.
-4x AC5 is good, but it sacrifices quite a lot to get it in speed etc.
-4x AC2 is a little light on dmg, but if you hang out at long range is pretty effective. i didnt like it because of the heat build up in brawling.

my current loadout: 1x AC2 in each arm, 1x UAC5 in each arm. Set left arm to trigger 1, and right arm to trigger 2. Make sure to hit backspace to set to chain fire. What theis does: the UAC5 will never jam, ever ever, unless you have the really really bad luck of a "no shot jam" where it jams before it fires even one round. Very rare, but it happens sometimes. By setting triggers to each arm, you can stick say, your right arm out around a corner and peg people while mostly covered. I put 2 tons each for AC2 and UAC5 ammo on. you will run out of ammo sometimes, but you should be following a Fatlas or stalker or something into battle and play fairly aggressively. However, do not play peek-a-boo with this loadout. it is not an alpha loadout, and 4x arms are too low to try to crest a ridge and back off again. Stick to strafing runs. I see 400-500 dmg if I get some ML shots in. Depending on how hard you push it, you may die a glorious death more often then some other mechs, but you will have taken a few with you, or at least chewed them up considerably and had a lot of fun doing it. I struggled a long time to find a loadout for the 4x and settled on this one.

I stuck some ML in the torso to shoot at lights.

Always move when brawling, and never directly at the target. Pick a 45 degree angle, and full throttle strafe. if an obstruction comes up, dont stop! never stop to turn around or something, they will eat you alive while the pokey 4x maneuvers. just keep going and circle around from cover at another angle for another pass. Circleing around a foe from like 500M out is a good way to up the odds they will miss you with things like AC20 shells. No need to get in hugging range.

I never did find a good use for the missile slot. Tried a LRM5 for a while, but AMS makes it pretty fruitless. Good only for making them hide in cover, but you want them out so you can dakka them with AC's, so it had limited use and I dropped it for tonnage.

Hope this helps

[John MatriX82]

EmperorMyrf, on 09 May 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

CTF-4X

My build is similar to yours except all your short range weapons are replaced by the original LL. All your weapons operate at one range so you don't have to think that hard, and you have enough ammo and heat efficiency to just keep on firing from mid-range. Avoid closing any distance less than 400m and stick with your assaults and you will be doing 500+ dmg easy.

Again, ignore armor distribution

Edit: also if you wanted you could add endo and upgrade to a STD 240 Engine. Pretty sure the only reason I haven't is I'm always short on cash from upgrading my other mechs

Man, by removing 2 DHSs and adding ENDO you can swap to a STD 250 that has better movement and heat efficiency: CTF-4X

However this: CTF-4X is a further improvement, with more speed and ammo for the AC 10s. Whenever I use a single ac 10 sometimes I'm short with 3 tons, therefore with 2 of them 6-7 tons should do it.

Unfortunately with the current meta the above config is a decent one, otherwise the latter is more dangerous but more rewarding: CTF-4X

Anyhow I'd reccomend 3D, 2X and 1X, the 4X should be avoided imho. It's the poorest cataphract around.

Edited by John MatriX82, 10 May 2013 - 01:43 AM.

[Just wanna play]

John MatriX82, on 10 May 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Man, by removing 2 DHSs and adding ENDO you can swap to a STD 250 that has better movement and heat efficiency: CTF-4X

However this: CTF-4X is a further improvement, with more speed and ammo for the AC 10s. Whenever I use a single ac 10 sometimes I'm short with 3 tons, therefore with 2 of them 6-7 tons should do it.

Unfortunately with the current meta the above config is a decent one, otherwise the latter is more dangerous but more rewarding: CTF-4X

Anyhow I'd reccomend 3D, 2X and 1X, the 4X should be avoided imho. It's the poorest cataphract around.

thanks for the advice guys!

what makes you feel that way about the 4x???

John MatriX82, on 10 May 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Man, by removing 2 DHSs and adding ENDO you can swap to a STD 250 that has better movement and heat efficiency: CTF-4X

However this: CTF-4X is a further improvement, with more speed and ammo for the AC 10s. Whenever I use a single ac 10 sometimes I'm short with 3 tons, therefore with 2 of them 6-7 tons should do it.

Unfortunately with the current meta the above config is a decent one, otherwise the latter is more dangerous but more rewarding: CTF-4X

Anyhow I'd reccomend 3D, 2X and 1X, the 4X should be avoided imho. It's the poorest cataphract around.

hmm, wouldnt those gauss only be a good chicoe if i wasnt brawling? they arent very powerful, alpha wise yes, but they shoot slow, isnt that a sniper build??

Anyone have any thoughts on dual lbx10s in a 4x?? i am brawling after all

[FireSlade]

Personally I hate the 4X for a few reasons the biggest being the lack of speed, second being lack of energy hardpoints making it highly ammo dependent, third being with how big the CT is on a Cataphract I prefer XLs but they're useless on the 4X. Where did the designers for Innersphere mechs think that 64kph was a good speed for heavies? As for your design it is pretty sound. What I would change is the armor placement and move the ammo into the torso to give you a little time to use it all. The 2 ML (2tons) packs more punch than a LL(5tons) at the cost of heat and range and the srm4 offers an efficient spread for 6 damage. Your ranged weapon will obviously be the twin AC10 giving you the same max range as a ERLL (1350meters) but I would not waste the ammo trying to snipe. At 75 rounds that means that you only get 38 shots with group fire so you will want to chain fire incase you miss. I use my middle mouse button to select between group and chain fire on the fly (changed my zoom to e). Here is the revision and I hope this helps you out. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f50f565dc77caba

[Just wanna play]

EmperorMyrf, on 09 May 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

CTF-4X

My build is similar to yours except all your short range weapons are replaced by the original LL. All your weapons operate at one range so you don't have to think that hard, and you have enough ammo and heat efficiency to just keep on firing from mid-range. Avoid closing any distance less than 400m and stick with your assaults and you will be doing 500+ dmg easy.

Again, ignore armor distribution

Edit: also if you wanted you could add endo and upgrade to a STD 240 Engine. Pretty sure the only reason I haven't is I'm always short on cash from upgrading my other mechs

is range what caused you to pick a large laser over 2 mediums?

[Just wanna play]

FireSlade, on 10 May 2013 - 03:00 AM, said:

Personally I hate the 4X for a few reasons the biggest being the lack of speed, second being lack of energy hardpoints making it highly ammo dependent, third being with how big the CT is on a Cataphract I prefer XLs but they're useless on the 4X. Where did the designers for Innersphere mechs think that 64kph was a good speed for heavies? As for your design it is pretty sound. What I would change is the armor placement and move the ammo into the torso to give you a little time to use it all. The 2 ML (2tons) packs more punch than a LL(5tons) at the cost of heat and range and the srm4 offers an efficient spread for 6 damage. Your ranged weapon will obviously be the twin AC10 giving you the same max range as a ERLL (1350meters) but I would not waste the ammo trying to snipe. At 75 rounds that means that you only get 38 shots with group fire so you will want to chain fire incase you miss. I use my middle mouse button to select between group and chain fire on the fly (changed my zoom to e). Here is the revision and I hope this helps you out. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f50f565dc77caba

my 2x goes 59kph...........

SO anyone have any thoughts on dual lbxs????

[Just wanna play]

isnt 64kph the speed of a medium??
real question is why did they think 46kph is good for a heavy.....

[John MatriX82]

Just wanna play, on 10 May 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

what makes you feel that way about the 4x???

Because it's tremendously slow and you can't house an AC 20 in there. Multiple AC combinations (4xAC5, 2xAC5+2xUAC5) have either lack of ammo or very limited viability due the highly sniping metagame we have now.

Actually any high-DPS build is overshadowed by any high alpha build (and it will nearly always be like this): you need to stay exposed and keep hitting your target that must get caught in the open. And even if you happen to be in the correct spot and get the correct target, any 4PPC or dual Gauss enemy that you can't see will send you to the graveyard or cripple your mech.

Not only, but the general slowness of the chassis isn't of help, since you'll be quite slow to fall back into cover.. Other cataphracts can do good builds with either 280 and 300 stds, this is stuck to a max engine rating of 255 that makes it an easy target.

Just wanna play, on 10 May 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

hmm, wouldnt those gauss only be a good chicoe if i wasnt brawling? they arent very powerful, alpha wise yes, but they shoot slow, isnt that a sniper build??

Anyone have any thoughts on dual lbx10s in a 4x?? i am brawling after all

Until devs will not understand that to make the LBX10 a viable weapon, its solid shot ammunition is needed, AC10 > LBX10. You need to deal damage to a single section of the enemy mech, not spread damage all around with pea-shooting pellets. The crit chance bonus may be nice, but you'll hardly be able to bring in enough powerful weapons to scratch the armor away in order to take away the internals with the LBXs.

About the dual gauss of course it's a sniper build.. we're into an all around sniping metagame, if you wish to brawl well with a 4X you're slow, you won't close the distance as fast as you need and you'll rarely have a turn back chance, so slapping two gauss at least allow you to compete a bit in sniping, albeit you're still slow and your arms are pretty low, so you need to expose nearly the whole mech to place your shots and you're exposed to return fire.

[Lostdragon]

I bought the 4x thinking I would enjoy its focus on ballistics, but as others have said it has a lot of drawbacks in the current game. I played mine through basics with UACs and lasers but it was pretty boring. Then I faced a Jager with 6x AC2s. I was shocked at the rate of fire and I thought, hey, I can do that on my 4x.

I stuck 4 AC2s on it and loaded up on ammo. I wouldn't say the build is any match for my 3D or Muromets, but it is pretty fun. Lots of people panic when they start getting hit by a steady stream of shells. If you are good at leading you can pour constant damage in to someone at extreme range. You need to avoid close range battles like the plague though because your alpha sucks and you will get shredded.

I have had a couple of 800 damage games with this build, but when I was learning it I had some very bad games until I got in to the swing of things. One thing this build is great at is throwing pop tart snipers off their game. The AC2 has incredible range and being hit in the face with constant fire tends to disrupt snipers' aim pretty effectively.

[FireSlade]

Just wanna play, on 10 May 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

my 2x goes 59kph...........

SO anyone have any thoughts on dual lbxs????

Just wanna play, on 10 May 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

isnt 64kph the speed of a medium??
real question is why did they think 46kph is good for a heavy.....

The 59kph for yours will go up to 64 once you get the speed tweak and I agree that no heavy should do 46kph stock. As for the mediums being 64kph that just for urban/brawler mechs (Hunchback, Centurion). With the maps that PGI keeps releasing, while pretty, they support the current meta of sniping and LRM boats. For slow mechs (other than Assaults) to be viable we need some urban style maps. And the LBX (one of my favorite ballistics) is not a primary weapon (without slugs) unfortunately. The spread is just too much making it impossible to hit just one location unless you are in melee range. Also running an AC10 and LB10X will reduce the amount of ammo that you can bring. As a secondary weapon it shines with massive cockpit shake (can barely aim while being hit with it) and it rips up critical parts (ammo, weapons, equipment) and it makes hitting lights easy (scares the crap out of them), but all this can only be done under 200meters. Maybe after the 21st update they'll shine even more with the 20% reduction of the spread.

[Nehkrosis]

Honestly your best bet is 4 ac/5s.

thats an ac/20 every 2.5 secs, or there abouts.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f0d0f9c37c20175

[Lostdragon]

Nehkrosis, on 10 May 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Honestly your best bet is 4 ac/5s.

thats an ac/20 every 2.5 secs, or there abouts.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f0d0f9c37c20175

That is not very much ammo, seems like you would run dry a lot. You have 30 shots if you fire all 4 weapons together every time. I run 30 rounds of Gauss on my 3D and I run dry on it a lot but I have PPCs to fall back on. You only have 600 potential damage here provided you never miss and you don't shoot past optimum range.

[EmperorMyrf]

Just wanna play, on 10 May 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

is range what caused you to pick a large laser over 2 mediums?

range and damage/heat, bust mostly range. You never have to close in on anything meaning you can stay back in the 400-500m range and stay relatively safe in the back/midrange

[Just wanna play]

can i point out again, speed is a non-issue

Lostdragon, on 10 May 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

I bought the 4x thinking I would enjoy its focus on ballistics, but as others have said it has a lot of drawbacks in the current game. I played mine through basics with UACs and lasers but it was pretty boring. Then I faced a Jager with 6x AC2s. I was shocked at the rate of fire and I thought, hey, I can do that on my 4x.

I stuck 4 AC2s on it and loaded up on ammo. I wouldn't say the build is any match for my 3D or Muromets, but it is pretty fun. Lots of people panic when they start getting hit by a steady stream of shells. If you are good at leading you can pour constant damage in to someone at extreme range. You need to avoid close range battles like the plague though because your alpha sucks and you will get shredded.

I have had a couple of 800 damage games with this build, but when I was learning it I had some very bad games until I got in to the swing of things. One thing this build is great at is throwing pop tart snipers off their game. The AC2 has incredible range and being hit in the face with constant fire tends to disrupt snipers' aim pretty effectively.

"I hate cheesy" remember who it was that said that????
with this build, its got the same speed as my 2x and i loved that for brawling

so imo speed isnt an issue this mech has

Nehkrosis, on 10 May 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Honestly your best bet is 4 ac/5s.

thats an ac/20 every 2.5 secs, or there abouts.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f0d0f9c37c20175

if you wanna talk alpha and dps, you cant, my original build beats 4 ac5s in both aspects,so ill keep looking

[Just wanna play]

John MatriX82, on 10 May 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Until devs will not understand that to make the LBX10 a viable weapon, its solid shot ammunition is needed, AC10 > LBX10. You need to deal damage to a single section of the enemy mech, not spread damage all around with pea-shooting pellets. The crit chance bonus may be nice, but you'll hardly be able to bring in enough powerful weapons to scratch the armor away in order to take away the internals with the LBXs.

About the dual gauss of course it's a sniper build.. we're into an all around sniping metagame, if you wish to brawl well with a 4X you're slow, you won't close the distance as fast as you need and you'll rarely have a turn back chance, so slapping two gauss at least allow you to compete a bit in sniping, albeit you're still slow and your arms are pretty low, so you need to expose nearly the whole mech to place your shots and you're exposed to return fire.

if it had slugs wouldn't it just be a lighter and cooler ac10??????

since i will be in melee range, what do you think i should do??? lbxs seem pretty tempting on such a nice ballistic bralwer mech

this quote also goes with that question/statement^^^

FireSlade, on 10 May 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

The 59kph for yours will go up to 64 once you get the speed tweak and I agree that no heavy should do 46kph stock. As for the mediums being 64kph that just for urban/brawler mechs (Hunchback, Centurion). With the maps that PGI keeps releasing, while pretty, they support the current meta of sniping and LRM boats. For slow mechs (other than Assaults) to be viable we need some urban style maps. And the LBX (one of my favorite ballistics) is not a primary weapon (without slugs) unfortunately. The spread is just too much making it impossible to hit just one location unless you are in melee range. Also running an AC10 and LB10X will reduce the amount of ammo that you can bring. As a secondary weapon it shines with massive cockpit shake (can barely aim while being hit with it) and it rips up critical parts (ammo, weapons, equipment) and it makes hitting lights easy (scares the crap out of them), but all this can only be done under 200meters. Maybe after the 21st update they'll shine even more with the 20% reduction of the spread.

from a a balancing point of view, isnt there a reason this mech is so slow????

[Just wanna play]

im currently thinking of making something like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c5ca6390ed0e076
lbx made room for medium pulses and it also has room ferro armor along with endo, but that is somewhat pointless.... (unless i want 1 more point of armor on each leg)

it would be nice if i could put in a little bigger engine

[El Death Smurf]

in my opinion, so long as you can handle the occasional jam, 2UAC5 and 1AC5 work very well together. chain fires quite nicely.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ecec49d205e4c6a (is more efficent than 4 AC5s)
good DPS
good range
heat efficint
good armor
XL free
works for me.