15 replies to this topic

[Mhael]

In the current meta medium mechs aren't quite as useful as they should be. There has been a lot of discussion about this (see threads such as http://mwomercs.com/...ated-imbalance/) with one of the problems noted is that mechs like the Centurion and the Trebuchet have a larger profile than they should for their tonnage and that if they shrunk down (perhaps by 20% or so) they would be harder to hit and therefore be more useful. I have no idea if this will ever happen, but it got me thinking: what if I took a light chassis (or Cicada since they are relatively small) and outfitted it as close to a medium as possible? These mechs would fill in the roll of heavy skirmisher. They would have close to max armor, and relatively fast speeds, but not quite fast enough to be a true scout (think in the 85 -110 kph range). They would try to bring as much firepower as they possibly could but could not engage in a sustained brawl. The goal is to maneuver around the front line or support the heavier chassis with extra firepower / light hunter abilities. After all, its not likely that a mech will take the time to kill a Raven if an Atlas is in its face. Here are some examples.

CDA-3M 3xLL: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b952a711ddae359
RVN-2X 2xLL 1xML 1xSRM6: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29eee6466169a00
JR7-F 6xMPL: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...baf09e1e1eb7efd

Thoughts? Any builds of this type you play / would like to play?

[Ph30nix]

Mhael, on 14 May 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

In the current meta medium mechs aren't quite as useful as they should be. There has been a lot of discussion about this (see threads such as http://mwomercs.com/...ated-imbalance/) with one of the problems noted is that mechs like the Centurion and the Trebuchet have a larger profile than they should for their tonnage and that if they shrunk down (perhaps by 20% or so) they would be harder to hit and therefore be more useful. I have no idea if this will ever happen, but it got me thinking: what if I took a light chassis (or Cicada since they are relatively small) and outfitted it as close to a medium as possible? These mechs would fill in the roll of heavy skirmisher. They would have close to max armor, and relatively fast speeds, but not quite fast enough to be a true scout (think in the 85 -110 kph range). They would try to bring as much firepower as they possibly could but could not engage in a sustained brawl. The goal is to maneuver around the front line or support the heavier chassis with extra firepower / light hunter abilities. After all, its not likely that a mech will take the time to kill a Raven if an Atlas is in its face. Here are some examples.

CDA-3M 3xLL: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b952a711ddae359
RVN-2X 2xLL 1xML 1xSRM6: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29eee6466169a00
JR7-F 6xMPL: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...baf09e1e1eb7efd

Thoughts? Any builds of this type you play / would like to play?

cicada is a medium.
also just because YOU CAN outfit a light as a medium doesnt mean you should or that you wouldnt suffer for it.

and no they couldnt be a heavy skirmisher, if you take a light into a fight under 130kph your not going to last long. Again you CAN use builds like that, but there are other builds far more useful and more threatening.

Having high damage doesnt mean you are a threat. especially if you dont live long enough to use it.

[Deathlike]

The longer a light mech is exposed (including the overweight light known as the Cicada), it is subject to being killed quickly in the current meta. Just because you have the "equivalent" power of a medium, doesn't make you as durable as a medium.

[Hammertrial]

I see no mention of the 3 ERPPC Jenner.

200 XL, 2 JJs, 2 external heat sinks, and 0 armor.

Poptarting supreme.

[Mhael]

I see both of your points, however, a medium mech's increased armor doesn't seem to help it much because of its profile (and I'm aware a Cicada is a medium, but I lump it in because of its profile. I currently run a Treb-7M. While it is relatively fast and has jump jets, its size makes it an easy target for anyone who is a decent shot and has a hard time sneaking around as well, which negates some of the advantage of 100 points extra armor. It also can't carry a lot more weaponry than the builds I described above. Lastly, its turn radius and bulk make it harder to counter light mechs. So its not an amazing heavy skirmisher.

[Hammertrial]

Also, I don't care for that Jenner build. If you were going to do that, drop two double heat sinks, add FF, and grab a 255 XL engine. You only lose .8 HS, and gain a ton of speed.(129.8 vs 115), which would help close in with pulses

[Ph30nix]

Mhael, on 14 May 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

I see both of your points, however, a medium mech's increased armor doesn't seem to help it much because of its profile (and I'm aware a Cicada is a medium, but I lump it in because of its profile. I currently run a Treb-7M. While it is relatively fast and has jump jets, its size makes it an easy target for anyone who is a decent shot and has a hard time sneaking around as well, which negates some of the advantage of 100 points extra armor. It also can't carry a lot more weaponry than the builds I described above. Lastly, its turn radius and bulk make it harder to counter light mechs. So its not an amazing heavy skirmisher.

i use my 7m with 2 ERppc, and i dont think i go under 90 KPH fromthe time the match starts till the end. and my feet are on the ground only long enough for JJ to recharge enough. Its fun as heck. especially when you jump from one hill to another take a shot, then your next jump is from a hill 400 meters away and you see your targets STILL sitting in the same place as last time, but they are all looking to where your last jump was because they are waiting for you to jump from their again.

[Kommisar]

This is pretty much the only thing the 2X and 4X Ravens can do. This, and small snipers. They are also the least liked mechs in the game; along with the Spider 5K.

It is the same debate that naval commanders, bureaucrats, and strategists had back in the early 20th Century concerning battlecruisers. The firepower of a battleship and the speed of a cruiser. But lacking the armor of a battleship and being slightly slower than a cruiser. With the compromises, fleet commanders ended up with ships that couldn't quite keep up with a cruiser squadron and lacked the armor and toughness to hang in the Line with the true battleships.

You can make it work. I have a Raven 4X (for the time being) which I am doing this with. But it is very situational. Often I find myself wishing I either had the armor to take some hits or the speed to get out of a bad spot. It can have good firepower; but generally not sustained. To fit in the big punch, you don't have the luxury of loading extra heatsinks. Like you said, if I can stay in close with a bigger mech or two, I can add weight of fire to their targets. This can be decisive in the right fight.

But, I feel that it is a one-trick pony in that regard. And, you often will get lots of upset teammates that wonder why you didn't go cap flags like a light. Not that you should always let your teammates dictate your tactics; but be ready for it. Most players see anything that is a Cicada or lighter as cap runners only. Not realizing that your Raven 4X with a top speed just under 100kph has no business getting into the light mech fight that crops up between caps. Especially by your lonesome.

[Hammertrial]

Kommisar, on 14 May 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

This is pretty much the only thing the 2X and 4X Ravens can do. This, and small snipers. They are also the least liked mechs in the game; along with the Spider 5K.

It is the same debate that naval commanders, bureaucrats, and strategists had back in the early 20th Century concerning battlecruisers. The firepower of a battleship and the speed of a cruiser. But lacking the armor of a battleship and being slightly slower than a cruiser. With the compromises, fleet commanders ended up with ships that couldn't quite keep up with a cruiser squadron and lacked the armor and toughness to hang in the Line with the true battleships.

You can make it work. I have a Raven 4X (for the time being) which I am doing this with. But it is very situational. Often I find myself wishing I either had the armor to take some hits or the speed to get out of a bad spot. It can have good firepower; but generally not sustained. To fit in the big punch, you don't have the luxury of loading extra heatsinks. Like you said, if I can stay in close with a bigger mech or two, I can add weight of fire to their targets. This can be decisive in the right fight.

But, I feel that it is a one-trick pony in that regard. And, you often will get lots of upset teammates that wonder why you didn't go cap flags like a light. Not that you should always let your teammates dictate your tactics; but be ready for it. Most players see anything that is a Cicada or lighter as cap runners only. Not realizing that your Raven 4X with a top speed just under 100kph has no business getting into the light mech fight that crops up between caps. Especially by your lonesome.

I love ac/20 ravens, and refuse to hunt them down in my Jenner unless they are last man standing. Anything that isn't just a streakboat is pretty much a-ok with me in the light class.

[Keifomofutu]

Missing one variant of the 3M I see quite often. 2xERPPC or 1ERPPC + PPC which gives it the punch of an AC20 with way more range and speed. I think it still goes 130km/h so it doesn't sacrifice too much speed. I don't have one yet but I intend to get one.

It's hard to keep the 3LL on target while driving a fast medium like the 3M so I definitely feel the 2xERPPC would be superior.


UPDATE:
I bought one. You can fit ECM 1PPC + 1ERPPC and a 300xl engine. Just last battle I had 3 kills and nearly 500 damage. The combination of great speed to get in flanking positions on rear armor and pinpoint damage is pretty deadly. Cored out an atlas in 3 salvos over roughly six seconds. People also tend to miss you a lot at long range if you just quickly pop over the ridge to take a shot and then disappear.

Even dedicated lights aren't really a weakness just challenging.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 14 May 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[Padic]

One point to consider is that at those speeds, you'd have more free weight on a medium weight chassis than on a light one. So, a light mech built to behave like a medium will probably be a small, almost-fast, lightly armored, lightly armed mech - instead of a large, almost-fast, moderately armored, moderately armed mech.

I tend to (mostly) agree with the thesis presented by the thread you linked - the biggest problem with medium mechs today is what players perceive to be optimal (or, at least, the most bang for their buck), not a mechanical deficiency with how they are constructed.

[Tenpin]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e1a6c7bc5306b58

Nasty little booger.

[Zerberus]

Bad idea.

Just yesterday I encoutered a Raven on RC plodding behing an atlas with an AC 20. Take a wild guess which one died first.

On a light mech, your speed and maneuverability ARE your armor, even on the slower ones like a 2x or 4X. Outfitting one like a Medium disregards this and leaves the light open to all sorts of bad situations, both with other lights and with fast mediums. Your speed and armor are somewhere between a commando and a hunchback, so that`s where (IMO) your firepower should be, too.... MLas, SRM racks, maybe a PPC/LL or 2, or an AC 10....

IMO your "job" /primary role is to fill the gap between the force multiplying power of mediums and the speed and utility of lights. In other words, you are the force multiplier for the lights and the fast striker for everyone else, because you`re one of the only mechs fast enough to get ther in time when your team`s 3L and 3D run into a Cicada team at theta, and the only one that can take that dual PPC over to that hill and snipe down on the enemy`s flank fast enough to make a difference.

Not saying it can`t be done or that people shouldn`t do it if they want to, I`ve crammed 6xlrm15 into an A1 before or 9 flamers into a 4P for laughs, but I wouldn`t consider those builds "competitive" or "generally useful" by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited by Zerberus, 17 May 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Syllogy]

Hammertrial, on 14 May 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

I see no mention of the 3 ERPPC Jenner.

200 XL, 2 JJs, 2 external heat sinks, and 0 armor.

Poptarting supreme.

You call it a Poptart, my Raven calls it a meal.

[Ph30nix]

Syllogy, on 17 May 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

You call it a Poptart, my Raven calls it a meal.

unless it hits you or has a buddy with ECM near by.

[DegeneratePervert]

Anything less than maximum possible engine rating on a light mech is a waste of a light mech. A medium is typically better than a light because of slightly more armor, and slightly better weapons, but the ability to mount a standard engine (more durability) and more heatsinks.