71 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

senaiboy, on 15 May 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

You're making the assumption that most people will load BAP. In reality, the only ones who will actually need BAP are:

• Light mechs, which will actually HELP their scouting ability by extending their sensors.
  
• LRM boats, to stop the disabling effect when an ECM mech stands next to it. Most already bring BAP anyway to reduce lock-on time and
  
• SSRM brawlers, to stop the disabling effect as well.

For the others, why should they bother with BAP? ECM does not affect direct damage weapons. ECM will not cut you off from your team. BAP will not enable you to detect faraway mechs under ECM cover. Why waste 1.5 tons?


You seem to miss the fact that ECM has been balanced - it no longer affects friendly IFF (which is a major annoyance), and it no longer grant immunity to SSRMs (which made the Raven-3L a major annoyance).

ECM will become a tactical choice, not a mandatory equipment for ECM-mechs. I fail to see how this is bad.

Based on 70% of the people on these boards thinking ECM is annoying and sucky, I think you'll see a lot of people mounting BAP.

Unlike PGI, I do think the boards are fairly representative of the game.

[Zolaz]

[Braggart]

I will be mounting bap on any of my mechs that plan on being in brawling range.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Braggart, on 15 May 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

I will be mounting bap on any of my mechs that plan on being in brawling range.

I will not be, I'm mostly an assault pilot that favors direct fire weapons, so being able to target something is not very important, merely aim and click. The one exception will be I can now use streaks on something other than a D-DC. ( Stalker 3F, 4 SSRM2s, 4 med lasers, and either 2 PPCs or 2 ER LL with a lovely little BAP. Chain fire the med lasers, and you have anklebiter's hell)

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 15 May 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[senaiboy]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Based on 70% of the people on these boards thinking ECM is annoying and sucky, I think you'll see a lot of people mounting BAP.

Unlike PGI, I do think the boards are fairly representative of the game.

Just because they think ECM is annoying, doesn't mean they are not able to weigh the pros/cons of having a 1.5 ton equipment though.

And even if everyone brings BAP, it doesn't affect ECM's role as long range scouting equipment. It merely stops the annoying disabling effect of ECM on SSRMs and LRMs (should you decide to bring them).

Braggart, on 15 May 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

I will be mounting bap on any of my mechs that plan on being in brawling range.

We may disagree on your tactics, but it'll be helpful if you could explain why do you see the need for BAP on a brawler without SSRMs (knowing the fact that most light mechs and other brawlers with SSRMs will bring BAP anyway).

Eg: My Quad AC/5 Jager will do just as well/bad with or without BAP. Same with my PPC cicada. Or jumpsniping Highlander. Or AC20 Hunchie. It gives me no tactical advantage and the 1.5 ton will be better spent elsewhere (extra DHS, bigger engine, more ammo, etc).

Edited by senaiboy, 15 May 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[NinetyProof]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

On the 21st, EVERYONE is going to mount BAP. (ok a bit of hyperbole, but I'd wager an overwhelming majority of players will)

You mean all the lemmings?

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Everyone who runs an ECM mech, is going to say "Ah, F this, I can play a non-ECM variant and use a better loadout" (aside from maybe the Spiders).

You mean the whole Jenner vs Raven debate? Scouts, at least the non-lemming, that actually scout will keep the ECM .. and will NOT be equipping BAP. And the rest? spiders? they will keep it ... so that leaves the DDC? Like that is going to have a major impact ... NOT.

I doubt I will drop ECM off my DDC depending upon what kind of weight, slot it takes up.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Then, everyone who has BAP will be like "Oh hey, no one is running ECM anymore, time to add another ton of ammo and a half ton of armor".

First off, the average Joe is not going to be running BAP ... at all. Only the Scouts and LRM boats. The LRM boats might keep it for other reasons ... and the scouts? it's just fuel for the jenner vs raven debate and really won't have a big impact at all.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

The end result is, ECM by itself without BAP is still a poorly designed piece of equipment. ECM needs to be balanced by itself. Right now, PGI is saying ECM is balanced when you have PPC's, BAP, TAG, NARC and the Adv. Sensor Module. It's all bad mechanics.

Why? cause you just blanket don't like them? You make no case for this statement at all. You have not shown a single reason why either is imbalanced. And you can't, cause it's not live yet. So you don't know.

But here is some non-lemming logic:
PPC's are short duration BAP/ECM in Disrupt ... no big deal.

BAP is anti ECM, but it's not ECM as you can't hide with it. ECM is like BAP against other ECM, but is trumped by real BAP.

TAG doesn't work under 160m ... it's nice for LRM boats, but without a module or something else still takes forever to lock.

NARC ... might be fine, but I thought it was still broken, so until it's fixed the juror is out on that one.

Adv Sensor Module? seriously? now your just talking out your neck ... adv sensor isn't in the same league as BAP, TAG, ECM, etc ... and neither are target decay, 360, and target info. Modules are fine right now presenting real choices on what to equip in your mech, BAP / ECM / etal and will still be the same choices if all those went away.

Again, the idea of shifting ECM to be a long distance scout tool makes a lot of sense and your premise that "everybody" is going to run BAP causing everybody to drop ECM is just silly ... or speaks to the average IQ of puggies and seriously, since when does puggie/lemming mentality dictate anything?

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Based on 70% of the people on these boards thinking ECM is annoying and sucky, I think you'll see a lot of people mounting BAP. Unlike PGI, I do think the boards are fairly representative of the game.

Nobody that has any brains cares about 70% of this board ... and seriously? stop pulling stuff out your re-end ... you don't know it's 70% at all ... that stuff just stinks up conversations. Learn not to LIE in your responses, then maybe folks will take you seriously? or at least as seriously as you take anybody talking out their necks on these boards.

Edited by NinetyProof, 15 May 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ninety you are coming WAY freaking late to this party if you are debating whether ECM is OP or not.

Go read up the last 6 months of posts regarding that. I'm not interested in that debate.

The fact that PGI did a complete 180 from their earlier position of ECM being fine is enough of an indicator of how things are going.

If ECM was fine and balanced as they said, there is no reason to add a hardcounter that EVERY mech can mount, with no hardpoint restriction at all. Especially since they've already added 3-4 soft counters before BAP.

As for no one mounting BAP...it's 1.5 tons. And whether you use direct fire or not, by you mounting BAP you are enabling LRM mechs and Streak mechs to support you while you brawl. For 1.5 tons. I can find 1.5 tons on any mech I've done.

And it's well worth it, just like for 1.5 tons ECM was always worth it.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 15 May 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[Taemien]

senaiboy, on 15 May 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

You should know that feeling being in a light mech and do the circle of death with a Raven-3L. You're severely disadvantaged by not being able to use your SSRMs.

ECM has been granting these Raven-3Ls immunity to SSRMs, which is the strongest weapon against lights. However with "Skill", you could arguably try to stay outside BAP's counter range and still maintain your ECM advantage over the other light mechs.

This means that the onus will lie on the ECM-carrying light mech to outplay others, and not just carry a 1.5 ton equipment that gives them an obvious advantage over other light mechs.

If I'm in a Light without ECM, I don't use streaks. I use SRMs, Medium Lasers, and Medium Pulse Lasers. My favorite is to use a Jenner with 4 Medium Pulse Lasers. That Raven will be hurting before too long, at least before I will.

[Kyone Akashi]

senaiboy, on 15 May 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

And even if everyone brings BAP, it doesn't affect ECM's role as long range scouting equipment. It merely stops the annoying disabling effect of ECM on SSRMs and LRMs (should you decide to bring them).

But the chief problem with MWO's implementation of the Guardian ECM is that it just is not used as long range scouting equipment at all.

3L's and 2D's slot it to gain the monopoly on SSRMs, and thus superiority in knife-fight brawls.
DDC's slot it to gain immunity from LRMs.

How many ECM-shielded Ravens have you seen that actually did recon for their team rather than just jumping into battle? I have seen exactly one. Over several months.

I'm not convinced this will change just because of this fix, especially considering that the LRM immunity will only be countered once the BAP-carrier moves into 150m range of Fatlas and Friends, then likely having to deal with the entire group.

This also ties into another statement you made, by the way:

senaiboy, on 15 May 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Light mechs, which will actually HELP their scouting ability by extending their sensors.

1. Not all Lights are designed for scouting, just like not all Heavies are designed as brawlers.
2. The Lights that will slot BAP after the change will not do so to scout but to even the odds in above-mentioned knife-fight brawls. They will not change their role on the battlefield and any additional intel gained from BAP will be an unintentional bonus.

The whole ECM/BAP interaction has nothing to do with scouting or tactical movement at all. And that's rather sad. The current mechanic will have its users focus entirely on duel superiority, and not at all on tactical movement like it should (judging from the background, and from personal preferences). And it all comes back to ECM in MWO doing something that it shouldn't as per the original material - messing with targeting and lock-on weapons, which should not require a counter in the first place. It should just be removed.
With each of these little changes, the game moves further and further away from how stuff actually works in Battletech. And the game gets more and more frustrating as it does so. Correlation?

Don't get me wrong, I still love MWO, but it could be oh so much better. I fondly remember the days of Closed Beta that had originally convinced me to become a Founder.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 16 May 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Kyone Akashi, on 16 May 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

1. Not all Lights are designed for scouting, just like not all Heavies are designed as brawlers.
2. The Lights that will slot BAP after the change will not do so to scout but to even the odds in above-mentioned knife-fight brawls. They will not change their role on the battlefield and any additional intel gained from BAP will be an unintentional bonus.

This is essentially what I envision.

Electronic Warfare will in it's current post may21 become more of brawling tool than actual electronic warfare equipment.

In any given match I usually see about 50% having BAP equipped and if I can effectively neuter ECM without even HAVE ECM in disrupt mode but simply have a BAP INSTALLED then those 1,5 tonnes just got better than ECM itself.

Any anti-scout mech will have BAP
Most missile mechs will have BAP
ECM mechs will have BAP so they can use ECM AND neuter other ECM at the same time

With BAP so easily accessible I'm starting to wonder if the NEXT "Fix" would include having BAP taking up a specific hardpoint and be limited to certain chassis just like the upcoming fix for ECM.

Too much rock,paper scissor.

Gimme the TT rules with BAP giving faster lock time and increased sensor range while ECM effectively counter the bonus by lowering sensor range and making target lock longer.

Instead of giving a soft counter they are now effectively ON/OFF buttons to each other in a way.

We shall see, I dont usually HAVE ECM but I have to grind skill for my DC Atlas so I'll find out.

Perhaps we might even need to BUFF ECM after this since EVERYONE can use BAP but only a few can use ECM.

Not to mention what the ECM Disrupt mode would be used for in the future...

[Pac Man]

Sarna]Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, on infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[sup, said:

[2][/sup] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

If one player can 'disrupt' a BAP, and another can remain with ECM on, this is still a valid group strategy for those running multiple ECM units. So long as they include the ability to counter BAP with ECM in Disrupt mode.

[Ngamok]

Pac Man, on 16 May 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

If one player can 'disrupt' a BAP, and another can remain with ECM on, this is still a valid group strategy for those running multiple ECM units. So long as they include the ability to counter BAP with ECM in Disrupt mode.

But the current ECM in game functions as both Guardian and Angel ECM.

http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

[MaddMaxx]

And thus it begins, even before it actually, really begins. Welcome to the defacto MWO Forums...

[General Taskeen]

According to the latest podcast... NARC is apparently becoming a counter to ECM too....

And there we have it folks. An ECM so far removed from what it is supposed to do, hence every subsequent bandaid. Core problems must be addressed. And NARC doesn't do what it is supposed to do (a powerful seeking tool for SRM/LRM), so it is being enhanced with someone its not supposed to do.

[Terror Teddy]

General Taskeen, on 16 May 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

According to the latest podcast... NARC is apparently becoming a counter to ECM too....

Which means that the next fix is PGI making up a counter to fight the OP BAP that everyone can run around and use with impunity with no skill whatsoever.

[NinetyProof]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Ninety you are coming WAY freaking late to this party if you are debating whether ECM is OP or not.

Lrn2Read?

I am saying that the new ECM model (long range scouting, initial group movement) seems like it will be fine.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

As for no one mounting BAP...it's 1.5 tons. And whether you use direct fire or not, by you mounting BAP you are enabling LRM mechs and Streak mechs to support you while you brawl.

Why in the world would *YOU* carry BAP to enable Streak Mechs (brawlers) to lock on? That's their job and the trade off for choosing streaks.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

For 1.5 tons. I can find 1.5 tons on any mech I've done.

And it's well worth it, just like for 1.5 tons ECM was always worth it.

I would guess you don't play competitive 8's at all ... and I would further guess you don't min/max your builds but rather just model from the TT Versions of Mechs? You know ... the whole Canon over Substance route?

1.5 tons can make a HUGE difference in either fire power or survivability and if your giving that up for no-good-reason then why should we pay attention to anything your saying here?

Back on topic:

What I was refuting was the statement that said: Every Lemming and their sister will run BAP at first (like you?) and then all the lemmings would stop running ECM cause of mass BAP (yea right) ... then all the lemmings will stop using BAP cause there is no more ECM (yawn).

I want that person to tell the story of godilocks and the three bears next ... fairy tales always help me fall asleep.

Basically what will happen, in short order in puggieLand, is we will see a rise in brawler SSRM builds that include BAP and will serve as the cover for the LRM crowd. Since the bulk of players are non-streak / LRM based, only a fraction of numnutts will actually equip useless equipment (like you?).

Of course those that do sacrifice will immediately post, at the start of the match, they are BAPers so that folks will understand why, at the end of the match, their scores were lower.

[General Taskeen]

NinetyProof, on 16 May 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Why in the world would *YOU* carry BAP to enable Streak Mechs (brawlers) to lock on? That's their job and the trade off for choosing streaks.

That's not a trade off. Items that enable to use of a weapon that hasn't been addressed since December to be changed to a skill weapon, like streaks in every Mech Warrior game.

Remember, every subsequent change has been a bandaid. There are core issues to these problems and if they are ignored, the issue will only get worse.

Edited by General Taskeen, 16 May 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

NinetyProof, on 16 May 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Why in the world would *YOU* carry BAP to enable Streak Mechs (brawlers) to lock on? That's their job and the trade off for choosing streaks.

Eer...Teamwork for those mechs that DONT carry SSRM's but have LRMS.

As a brawler - If i lock a target 25% faster I also transmit the target info to my teammates with LRM's and indirect fire to start bringing in the rain on their heads as I also effectively neuter their ECM.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 16 May 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Karyu]

This entire conversation is pointless because it is being approached as "We need to find a way to make BAP an effective counter to ECM without causing people to stop using ECM".

Everyone realizes that ECM is the counter to BAP right? Right?

PGI really needs to start from scratch...go with exact TT values (which are considerably underpowered for the current game) and buff from there in turn with both the ECM and BAP...oh and BAP should have dedicated hard points just like ECM.

[Serevn]

ECM should only have minimal benefits for the small amount of weight and slots it takes up.