71 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

PGI did what FASA failed to do. They made ECM, NARC, BAP, and TAG logical. I understand the uproar based on how TT did it but you've got to realize that those two are completely different applications in two entirely different environments. In TT, you're essentially God looking down upon the battlefield. There are no sensors, there is no lock on weaponry, etc. In MW:O, you need your sensors to lock on and you need locks to fire guided weapons (ie, that's what a missile is - guided). ECM limited sensor strength and then shut it down when within the bubble. BAP boosts sensor strength and, as such, provides you with the ability to fight through the clutter. NARC is a portable BAP module that you can fire at someone. And TAG is simply a laser range finder. Saying that PGI did ewo wrong is naive if you don't take into account how things actually operate in the real world cause that is how they applied it.

PS> I am still maintaining the fact that BAP will not "counter" ECM as people think it will. I have got to believe that it is going to be a singular allowance for only the BAP carrier and not for everyone else. If it were to be a complete counter to ECM, there would be no point in running ECM in counter mode at all. I could be wrong but this is how I interpret the intent.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 16 May 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Ngamok]

Karyu, on 16 May 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

This entire conversation is pointless because it is being approached as "We need to find a way to make BAP an effective counter to ECM without causing people to stop using ECM".

Everyone realizes that ECM is the counter to BAP right? Right?

PGI really needs to start from scratch...go with exact TT values (which are considerably underpowered for the current game) and buff from there in turn with both the ECM and BAP...oh and BAP should have dedicated hard points just like ECM.

Yup, BAP should have dedicated hard points I agree. Or people will just put them in the legs like me.

[General Taskeen]

Trauglodyte, on 16 May 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

PGI did what FASA failed to do. They made ECM, NARC, BAP, and TAG logical.

How were ECM, BAP, TAG, NARC not logical in TT? What are you smoking?

NARC - AUTO SEEKING utility for srm's and lrm's (ECM Shuts off powerful TT auto-seek accuracy) <-Functionality NOT PRESENT in-game, however it has this functionality in other Mech games
TAG - Cuts through ECM regardless where ECM is, TAG also functions with weapons that are not in the game, such as arrow-iv and semi-guided LRM's (giving it similar usefulness for auto-tracking like NARC does)
ECM - Prevents enemy from detecting information of Mechs (what the Mech carries, its amor levels), shuts off ability for Mechs to gain C3 bonuses (sharing of targets over long distances for in-direct support), removes Artemis IV accuracy bonus, gains Ghost Targeting, shuts off NARC beacon when in range, counters BAP's abilities exceptBAP's ability to be aware ECM is nearby, and if in BAP's range, ECM's ability to hide "mech info" is lost
BAP - Detect Shut Down Mechs, Extends Radar Detection, <-Jammed by ECM when ECM is in range -> BAP is aware of jamming, and counters ECM's ability to hide "mech info."


Hey, look actual Information Warfare with soft counters and actual paper-rock-scissors. And if you want to talk Streaks or "lock-on" type systems, then look at how other games addressed that. Streaks in particular acquired an actual thought-process before firing in other games otherwise ammo was wasted.

Edited by General Taskeen, 16 May 2013 - 11:40 AM.

[Kensaisama]

I don't agree with the direction they are taking in regards to EW, I have my own ideas and suggestions on the direction they should be heading in, and have even posted my own thread on this very subject in the suggestions section of the forums. In my opinion the current implementation of EW is broken, and soon to be completly borked in the next update. Making Beagle Active Probe a hard counter to the very thing that Guardian ECM is supposed to counter is bassackwards. Beagle wasn't made powerful enough nor implemented properly to begin with, and Guardian was made to powerful and countered some things that it shouldn't. If they implemented it closer to the rules than it currently is, I doubt very much there would be so much bellyaching about it on the forums that currently exist. I sincerely hope the developers are reading these threads and not just blowing the community off, they are just as human and subject to cranial ****** inversion just like the rest of us.

Interesting how that particular word is blocked.

Edited by Kensaisama, 16 May 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

General Taskeen, on 16 May 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

How were ECM, BAP, TAG, NARC not logical in TT? What are you smoking?

I'm at work so I'm not smoking anything. The point isn't so much that TT wasn't logical but rather that TT was completely implausable to translate to a real time game. So, PGI's adaptation makes sense.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 16 May 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

I'm at work so I'm not smoking anything. The point isn't so much that TT wasn't logical but rather that TT was completely implausable to translate to a real time game. So, PGI's adaptation makes sense.

Uh that's bullcrap. How is what General Taskeen listed implausible to translate into a real time game?

It's all exactly what it should do in the game.

None of this "STOP LRMS ENTIRELY" stupidity

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 16 May 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 16 May 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Uh that's bullcrap. How is what General Taskeen listed implausible to translate into a real time game?

It's all exactly what it should do in the game.

None of this "STOP LRMS ENTIRELY" stupidity

I'm not arguing against what he said. Hell, I don't much enjoy the "I can't lock on cause of ECM" crap. But I understand it. A SAM launcher requires a ton to fire and hit its target. It can't keep a tone on an EWO fighter like the old school Prowler or the newly launched Growler (Hornet variant). PGI took real life functionality and applied it to the game. The unfortunate part about all of this has been the fact that they added a missile counter only to slowly roll out the counter counters. People got behind the adapted TAG once it was out and people are getting behind the newly adapted BAP now that it is out. The outrage has been less about the interaction and more about the inability to get around the one piece of equipment that shut down so many mech designs. Therefore, I'm ok with where we are at right now because it makes sense and there are now options.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

General Taskeen, on 16 May 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

How were ECM, BAP, TAG, NARC not logical in TT? What are you smoking?

NARC - AUTO SEEKING utility for srm's and lrm's (ECM Shuts off powerful TT auto-seek accuracy) <-Functionality NOT PRESENT in-game, however it has this functionality in other Mech games
TAG - Cuts through ECM regardless where ECM is, TAG also functions with weapons that are not in the game, such as arrow-iv and semi-guided LRM's (giving it similar usefulness for auto-tracking like NARC does)
ECM - Prevents enemy from detecting information of Mechs (what the Mech carries, its amor levels), shuts off ability for Mechs to gain C3 bonuses (sharing of targets over long distances for in-direct support), removes Artemis IV accuracy bonus, gains Ghost Targeting, shuts off NARC beacon when in range, counters BAP's abilities exceptBAP's ability to be aware ECM is nearby, and if in BAP's range, ECM's ability to hide "mech info" is lost
BAP - Detect Shut Down Mechs, Extends Radar Detection, <-Jammed by ECM when ECM is in range -> BAP is aware of jamming, and counters ECM's ability to hide "mech info."


Hey, look actual Information Warfare with soft counters and actual paper-rock-scissors. And if you want to talk Streaks or "lock-on" type systems, then look at how other games addressed that. Streaks in particular acquired an actual thought-process before firing in other games otherwise ammo was wasted.

QFT


In MechWarrior 4 (despite all its flak its received) handled streaks well (and yes, in MW4 NARCs gave missile the auto lock feature, which made for amazing LRM wars). In MW4 for any of those unaware, Streak Lock and LRM lock were two different mechanics. LRMs have the current "stay on target" for a brief second to acquire their lock-on, but then had a fire and forget and no minimum range (which current LRMs do need, btw).

Streaks, their lock-on mechanic was different (and actually fuking skill based). In order for Streaks to gain a lock-on, you had to have your crosshairs directly over the mech you were aiming at (No 90 degree auto hit streak BS this game currently has). The streaks also 90% went after the location your crosshairs were on as you fired the streak, (so again, no S 90% damage goes to CT regardless...). Third, you could actually dodge them. (<Insert MW:O **** weapon mechanic reference>). And to top it off, AMS WAS an effective defense against point blank streaks. (Gee, wouldn't it be amazing if the AMS, was some sort of anti missile system? Ya' know, to help deal with incoming missiles?)

Its funny how PGI just didn't look back at the LAST game iteration to see what they did right, and just copy it. Instead, we have broken Streaks coutered by a broken ECM countered by a broken BAP, all the while all the electronics purposes are now ***-backwards (BAP, an electronic, is the counter to the Electronic COUNTER measure, the ***?). ****, even MW:LL got their weapons right, and they used the same game engine. So, wtf -- seriously?


//rant.

PS. PGI, get yer **** together.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 16 May 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

I'm not arguing against what he said. Hell, I don't much enjoy the "I can't lock on cause of ECM" crap. But I understand it. A SAM launcher requires a ton to fire and hit its target. It can't keep a tone on an EWO fighter like the old school Prowler or the newly launched Growler (Hornet variant). PGI took real life functionality and applied it to the game. The unfortunate part about all of this has been the fact that they added a missile counter only to slowly roll out the counter counters. People got behind the adapted TAG once it was out and people are getting behind the newly adapted BAP now that it is out. The outrage has been less about the interaction and more about the inability to get around the one piece of equipment that shut down so many mech designs. Therefore, I'm ok with where we are at right now because it makes sense and there are now options.

WTF are you talking about? All we are asking for is that PGI go back and look at implementing the tabletop Information Warfare, which WOULD work in MW:O and makes much more sense.

I don't care about Growlers or SAM launchers. Jesus.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 16 May 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

WTF are you talking about? All we are asking for is that PGI go back and look at implementing the tabletop Information Warfare, which WOULD work in MW:O and makes much more sense.

I don't care about Growlers or SAM launchers. Jesus.

TBH, you wouldn't even need to dig up the rules set by TT, MechWarrior 3 AND 4 both got their **** at least in the ball park range of close to being a good Information Warfare starting point. Still leagues ahead of the *********** we have now.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

mwhighlander, on 16 May 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

TBH, you wouldn't even need to dig up the rules set by TT, MechWarrior 3 AND 4 both got their **** at least in the ball park range of close to being a good Information Warfare starting point. Still leagues ahead of the *********** we have now.

That's fine too, I just can't believe he said it was implausible for those rules to be in place in MW:O they make perfect sense in MW:O. So do the MW4 mechanics you described.

[Jonathan Paine]

While I am very happy that BAP will act as a counter to ECM invincibility, I would love to the see the following BUFF to ECM after the patch:
Let the alternate ECM mode counter BAP.

Example:
ECM Commando runs around under ECM cloak. BAP Commando enters 150m radius, counters ECM cloak. ECM Commando switches ECM mode (so visible on the map, missiles can lock), BAP Commando loses bonuses to quicker lock on and increased sensor range.

Thoughts?

[Kyone Akashi]

Trauglodyte, on 16 May 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

In TT, you're essentially God looking down upon the battlefield. There are no sensors, there is no lock on weaponry, etc.

What?

Did you actually read the TT?

And I'm not only referring to the Double-Blind rules or equipment such as Stealth Armor and Null Signature, but also the canonical background of electronic warfare in this setting. Little hint: radar isn't the only way Battletech 'Mechs are tracking enemy units.

For better enlightenment, I shall provide a citation from the Battletech TechManual:

"Thermal imaging, light amplification, radar and magnetic anomaly sensors are all among the primary sensors used by BattleMechs, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors, chemical analyzers and a multitude of others. Despite this broad range of sensor types, MechWarriors are not deluged with raw data. Sophisticated computers streamline, interpret and prioririze this information, so that by the time the warrior gets the info, it appears as simple visual cues on the usual cockpit displays or the warrior's own neurohelmet heads-up display (HUD). The powers of a BattleMech's sensory processors stand out most strongly in their ability to recognize other units and classify them by type and as friend or foe. [...]"
- TechManual p.39 Sensors and Targeting Systems

But perhaps you can explain how Guardian ECM alone is capable of messing with my 'Mechs magscan, heat vision or seismic sensors ... and how this makes MWO oh-so logical and more realistic?

I still like this game, but I don't like how the devs have basically begun to rewrite the setting and how stuff functions. There is absolutely no reason not to let ECM, missiles, BAP etc. work like they did in so many other games prior to MWO, and I daresay it would be more fun.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 16 May 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[trollocaustic]

I'd say the following is needed.

BAP range-270
ECM range same as now.
ECM weight should be at least 1 ton more than BAP.

[Miekael]

General Taskeen, on 16 May 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

NARC - AUTO SEEKING utility for srm's and lrm's (ECM Shuts off powerful TT auto-seek accuracy) <-Functionality NOT PRESENT in-game, however it has this functionality in other Mech games
TAG - Cuts through ECM regardless where ECM is, TAG also functions with weapons that are not in the game, such as arrow-iv and semi-guided LRM's (giving it similar usefulness for auto-tracking like NARC does)
ECM - Prevents enemy from detecting information of Mechs (what the Mech carries, its amor levels), shuts off ability for Mechs to gain C3 bonuses (sharing of targets over long distances for in-direct support), removes Artemis IV accuracy bonus, gains Ghost Targeting, shuts off NARC beacon when in range, counters BAP's abilities exceptBAP's ability to be aware ECM is nearby, and if in BAP's range, ECM's ability to hide "mech info" is lost
BAP - Detect Shut Down Mechs, Extends Radar Detection, <-Jammed by ECM when ECM is in range -> BAP is aware of jamming, and counters ECM's ability to hide "mech info."


Hey, look actual Information Warfare with soft counters and actual paper-rock-scissors. And if you want to talk Streaks or "lock-on" type systems, then look at how other games addressed that. Streaks in particular acquired an actual thought-process before firing in other games otherwise ammo was wasted.

I would never stop playing if they could bring EW to this level.

I always thought it would be cool if things like NARC, Artemis where OP. Imagine being on a team, someone got hit with NARC, as they are scrambling to cover the ECM raven comes running along to block out the NARC signal before the rain hits. When the splatcats make their push, raven comes along and gets behind the brawlers to disable the Artemis SRMs from CTing the Atlas. Instead we get to play with light switches to see whose streaks work.

Edited by Miekael, 16 May 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[Lootee]

Kyone Akashi, on 16 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

But perhaps you can explain how Guardian ECM alone is capable of messing with my 'Mechs magscan, heat vision or seismic sensors ... and how this makes MWO oh-so logical and more realistic?

Space magick. ECM magically blocks heat seeking missiles, laser designated missiles, optically guided missiles, image recognition seeker missiles, anti-radiation missiles, telepresence operated missiles, all missiles. It's space magick.

[Lykaon]

NinetyProof, on 15 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

.
Why? cause you just blanket don't like them? You make no case for this statement at all. You have not shown a single reason why either is imbalanced. And you can't, cause it's not live yet. So you don't know.

If you would like me to take a wack at putting forth a solid argument for why the whole ECM/PPC/TAG/Sensor module/BAP interaction is idiotic I will.

First off ECM when it was implimented was over featured when compared to other equipment.

1: Prevents lock on weapons from functioning while effected by ECM.Just wow what a feature I'm already sold it's AMS 2.0 where AMS uses the same tonnage and cit slots the ECM just turns locking weapons off 100% nullification why bother with shooting down a fraction of the missiles just prevent them from working at all.Also ECM does not require ammo that may explode double plus!

2: But wait there's more...ECM will prevent your mech from being detected by enemy sensors.ECM will reduce the effective range of enemy sensors to only 25% normal levels! Wow this is great,Better than AMS AND stealth...Oh wait it's even better than that,EVERYONE on you team that is within 180m of the ECM ALSO GETS SNEAKY MODE! super win eh?

3: But wait we ain't even done yet.ECM will prevent the functioning of Active probes NARC beacons TAG and Artemis systems.This is nice little bonus stacked on top of giant robot ninja mode and AMS 2.0!

4. Did you think we were done yet? Hells no we got more ECM is so bloated with features it out performs anything in it's class (even if there was anything else in it's class it's just that awesome)
ECM will also prevent your enemy from gaining the benifits of shared targeting data! now with 1.5 tons and 2 crits you will win the information warfare portion of MWo.No longer any need for scouts or spotters ECM turns them off yippie.

But wait there's more! ECM will even prevent the enemy from seeing friendlies on thier minimap sewing confusion and breaking up formations with ease.

5: Act now an we will throw in a bonus feature! Enemy ECM got you in a twist? Well now ECM can 100% nullify enemy ECM by switching to counter mode!

All of that for 400k C-bills 2 critical slots and 1.5 tons that's a whole lotta cheese stacked on one tiny peice of equipment.

I have now illistrated why I feel ECM was over featured when launched.I have outlined it's capabilities (they are considerable) and outlined the downside to using ECM (if you missed it you didn't there is no down side)

So now we have this ECM monster unleashed upon mechwarrior online.The forums ignite with debate and outright arguing about ECM features.

Devs decide something needs to reduce ECM potency.But do they directly address ECM? do they remove one or more of the bloated features off the pile of OPness ECM is?

No they don't.

The Devs add more features to other items to attempt to hammer the square peg of ECM into MWo's round little hole.

Even before we got to see ECM in beta play the Devs through internal testing determined ECM was too potent to allow every chassis access. So the Devs altered mechlab to suit ECM.Only specific chassis may make use of ECM.This pretty sounded the deathknell for several mech varients that lacked ECM access.

Now we see a bunch of features added to things that are distinctly not ECM...

TAG altered to mitigate the stealth abilities of ECM all the while ECM retains it's hard counter to TAG functionality.

TAG altered again to extend range to reduce the exposure to ECM that still hard counters TAG while TAG only mitigates one feature of ECM's many potent abilities.

Next we see the module system co-opted to try to tone down the ECM beast.Sensor range modules served to slightly reduce ECM's sensor jamming abilities.In the end this was a lot of Dev talk to get us what was it? 20% more of our 25% sensor range? or to be more clear 20 meters of anti giant robot ninja mode!
The overlooked portion of this ploy was it gated casual players who either lacked time/GXP or MC to purchase modules.This ECM mitigation was limited to players who either spent a lot of time or some cash.

Still ECM is an issue and yet still ECM has yet to see one single adjustment to any of it's own features.

Next we have PPC and ER-PPC alterations to attempt to bring ECM in line.We now see tons of PPCs yet let's be honest shooting at and hitting a target with ECM to nullify the ECM for a brief moment is a crap solution particularly since the ECM needs no line of sight to function so need not present a target at all to apply it's effects.Further more Stacking more ECM mitigates this countermeasure so it's really a trash solution.

All this development time spent addressing TAG,PPCs modules and the pages upon pages of forum postings on ECM how much time does ONE single item deserve? Why was ECM not directly addressed why were no features removed from ECM instead EVEN MORE features were coded into what seemed like everything but ECM to make ECM work.

And now we have even more features being applied to things that are distinctly not ECM in order to "fix" the ECM issue.

Think of it like this...

You are building a house and you have these really cool rubber nails.These nails won't ever rust they are totally the bomb.

Then you try to hammer one in...Boing! Boing! Boing! well this isn't working.

I need a bigger hammer!
Boing! Boing! Boing!
I need a bigger hammer AND softer wood!
Boing! Boing! Boing!
Hmm...Nail Grease I need nail grease a bigger hammer and softer wood!
Boing! Boing! Boing!

When will you admit that rubber nails was a bad idea?






P.S. Nail grease? is that even a thing?

[Revorn]

ECM in its current form, was and is, just pure BS. Imho.

This Bap thing wont help to much in Game. Sure Streaks are maybe back with Range of 150m and LRM boats can fire if a Enemy Scout is near, Yuppiie. It dont realy helps to get more Lock ons or Target Information, because ppl arent figthing to often below 150 m. At this way it even dont helps LRM Boats to get Locks for indierekt Fire.

It mabe changes some Ligthbuildts, but notihng more, the LRM Boats have already Bap installed for getting faster Locks at longer Ranges. The Brawler dont realy need the Bap, because the effective Range of 150m. Imho.

Edited by Revorn, 17 May 2013 - 03:32 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Lykaon, on 17 May 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

P.S. Nail grease? is that even a thing?

Thank you for your post - I will now unfortunately refer to PGI's equipment game balancing act as "Nail Grease".

[Hawker]

I also put BAP in my sniper mechs because it gives me further sensor range and an additonal +25% target information which to me is vital to know where to shoot.

So adding ECM counter to BAP just makes it better for me as well. Not sure why you guys are arguing about it. If they won't change ECM, at least giving BAP another function is better than nothing. I would still use BAP anyway, and I do.