22 replies to this topic

[NecessaryWeevil]

I'm confused. I expected to get 'Capture Assist' bonuses when I captured capture points. But two games ago I captured 4, and was credited with 1. Last game, I captured 2 and was credited with 0. Clearly my expectations are misplaced somehow...can someone point out where?

Thanks!

[Deathlike]

Capture assists are only given if you helped get a cap win in Assault OR helped get a resource win in Conquest.

Otherwise, you don't get the bonus.

[DEMAX51]

And in conquest - whether you assist on one base capture or all 5 - you only get the bonus once.

[Raging Owlbear]

You know, this seems unfair to those of us who like to run lighter mechs. On large maps, my job is to run around and cap at great peril. Sometimes I don't encounter any combat, sometimes I'm horribly slaughtered...

But no matter how many caps I (and I alone) make, I can only get XP credit for 1. On several occasions, I've capped 4 positions and ensured a win even when the rest of the team lay in pieces. My efforts to ensure the win should earn me more. The rest of the team gets their XP for kills and partials, but I will almost never get those since my goal is to move quick and avoid heavy combat.

Does anyone else thinks this is yet another poke in the eye to lights and fast mediums?

Edited by Lt Waldo, 17 June 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[Corison]

Considering it takes Zero skill to run around at 150 kph and is less than "great peril' I am not sure how much bonus reward your expecting

Perhaps your team was in pieces because they were down a member... You do get the bonus for the win of course, and your entire team makes more credits which is nice. Should you balance that with spotting and support as well you will get even greater rewards.

Edited by Corison, 17 June 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[Genewen]

I would think that this is a badly done attempt at preventing abuse. If they gave the bonus every time without setting a limiter, people could just alternate at capping a tower without harming each other for fast-farming XP. Of course there would be ways to solve it differently, like giving the XP bonus for each cap point a cooldown.

[Raging Owlbear]

But the point of conquest is to capture and hold point on the map... I do spot for my team, and some jerk yelled at me for even carrying a TAG saying that it was "wasted unless you know you will have LRMs", but because I'm a dad with a job and mortgage, I can't always play with a consistent group. Imagine that... I got yelled at for not having a medium laser in place of a TAG.

I've been playing for months and have grinded my CATs through Elite and working on my CDAs. I'm not a newb complaining. I've observed what it takes to win both conquests and assault and there are reasons I that I am often the only one in a lighter mech in these matches. It pays more in XP to fight than to use tactics.

Genewen: I agree. That would be at least something. I'm just looking for incentives to not make every brawl a deathmatch at Theta.

Edited by Lt Waldo, 17 June 2013 - 05:14 PM.

[Corison]

Meh I run tag in almost every build I run... if they don't like it, its their problem. More often than not it comes in very handy.

[Raging Owlbear]

Further evidence that the XP system is way biased toward deathmatch:

Both matches were in my Cicada.

I didn't get the exact number of the win, but it was below 400 XP. I capped 3 bases on my own and was one of three surviving when we won by destruction (rather than 750 points) Much of the team was down for the count and I had to re-cap to help save the victory before the points totaled up. By all measures, it was an awesome match, except for the XP.

Win 300
Kill Assist 66 (?) for 2
Spots ? for 2
No capture assist... I don't know why I didn't get any XP for the caps.

Somehow it came out to less than 400 XP (around 375 - 380, I think).

LOSS 100
Kill 83
Kill Assist 29 (?)
Spots 25
Savior Kill 150
Component destruction: 21 (?)

TOTAL: 408 (it may have been 403, I was trying to write furiously before the screen closed).

But in any case, the win was definitely high 300s and the loss was low 400s... which goes to show that it's better to fight and lose than it is to try to win, even in conquest. I helped some in the loss, but really helped a lot in the win. Yet you'd never know by the XP.... which sucks and totally skews the game toward heavies and fighting rather than a balanced lance with strategy.

I'd be better off, even in the Cicada, skipping the caps and purposefully losing with circle strafes on multiple targets so I can rack up kill assists.

I think we all can agree that sucks because assault and conquest not only become the same game, but they're both actually death match since capping doesn't do anything useful if you plan to upgrade your mechs.

Edited by Lt Waldo, 17 June 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[Raging Owlbear]

Corison, on 17 June 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Considering it takes Zero skill to run around at 150 kph and is less than "great peril' I am not sure how much bonus reward your expecting

Clearly, you've spent very little time in lights and your post indicates that you haven't learned what it takes to play lights well.

First off, unless you put nothing but the most massive engine in, you won't get 150 kph... and then you have nothing but engine and very little armor. Also, you've just dropped 20MIL Cbills on a Jenner... Yeah, that's fair. It takes forever to grind that much cash when you have to start out in one of the "base" lights or mediums, which travel no where near 150 kph. Even my upgraded Cicada (which took a looooooong time to outfit with enough money), I can get about 125 kph (until I unlocked the ELITE Speed Tweak, which again. TAKES FOREVER).

I was able to grind the Catapults way faster than the Cicada, which just demonstrates how much the game favors heavies over lights and fast mediums.

[Modo44]

There should be a point reward for each cap regardless of the win condition achieved. Consider what would happen to that glorious kill-win if the team lights did not bother to run around "doing nothing". Nevermind, we all know what happens in those games on Alpine or Tourmaline...

[DodgerH2O]

What would make sense, in Conquest, to have Cap Assist up to 1x per base. Meaning (like kill assists) that a max per round exists, keeping from "farming"

Say, perhaps standing on a cap gives an assist if and only if your team holds that base at the end of round. So a light that ran and capped 3 points alone while the rest of the team brawled the enemy unto death would get 3 cap assists on victory.

[Raging Owlbear]

Found some interesting numbers on the stat pages to further support my theory.

I have similar play times (multiple hours) in one of my Cicada's as one of the Catapults (both have their Elite levels bought).The win/loss ratio for the Cicada is higher than the one for the Catapult. My average earnings come out to 79 XP per minute of game play in the Catapult. In the Cicada (with a higher win ratio), it's 55 XP per minute of game play.

Actually, looking closer at my stats, all 3 of my Cicada's average 55 - 57 XP per minute (consistent, I must say). My Cats average, 63, 79 and 79 per minute. The Cicadas all have higher win / loss ratios (significantly higher in one case) than the Cats.

Unfortunately, I haven't played enough of the other heavies to get a statistically valid sample (less than 1/2 hour), but based on the numbers, they still trend somewhat higher (which is odd because I thought you didn't get XP in trial mechs -- no?),

I have 45 minutes in a trial Raven that I played -- 7 wins, no losses: 64.5 XP per minute. More than the Cicadas, but still less than the Cats.

[RadioKies]

Lt Waldo, on 17 June 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

It pays more in XP to fight than to use tactics.

That because Mechwarrior Tactics is another game! This be a fighting game yo!

[Aslena]

I have found that the best thing to do as far as cb/xp goes is to go cap 1 base then head back to your team, and assist them once the 2 teams have met. Heavy mechs often need the support of lights/mediums to be able to dish out there damage. While assisting them I usually use a tag, and try to get it on one of the enemy missile boats "if they have one" if not I usually go for an atlas or other slower mech. While I'm tagging I run around a bit shooting the mech I'm tagging (be sure to keep them targeted and keep the tag on them as much as possible). If LRMs come I keep at it, if not I run around the enemies a bit shooting them at fairly close range, they usually get confused (assuming it's a pug) and start trying to shoot me, usually even pugs start to realize that there not being shot at as much and come in for a good brawl. If the team doesn't support me I sometimes die miserably. Most of the time I end up with 3-500 damage done at the end of the fight and the occasional 800 or 900. (this being in my Jenner)

________
I just wanted to add that Jenners and Ravens are considered quick strike mechs, and they aren't really for base capping (same would apply to fast Cicadas I would assume). Zoom in do some damage and zoom out. It will help your team tremendously, although it does take some time to get the hang of doing it without getting dead.

Edited by Aslena, 18 June 2013 - 01:19 AM.

[mailin]

Aslena, on 18 June 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

I have found that the best thing to do as far as cb/xp goes is to go cap 1 base then head back to your team, and assist them once the 2 teams have met. Heavy mechs often need the support of lights/mediums to be able to dish out there damage. While assisting them I usually use a tag, and try to get it on one of the enemy missile boats "if they have one" if not I usually go for an atlas or other slower mech. While I'm tagging I run around a bit shooting the mech I'm tagging (be sure to keep them targeted and keep the tag on them as much as possible). If LRMs come I keep at it, if not I run around the enemies a bit shooting them at fairly close range, they usually get confused (assuming it's a pug) and start trying to shoot me, usually even pugs start to realize that there not being shot at as much and come in for a good brawl. If the team doesn't support me I sometimes die miserably. Most of the time I end up with 3-500 damage done at the end of the fight and the occasional 800 or 900. (this being in my Jenner)

________
I just wanted to add that Jenners and Ravens are considered quick strike mechs, and they aren't really for base capping (same would apply to fast Cicadas I would assume). Zoom in do some damage and zoom out. It will help your team tremendously, although it does take some time to get the hang of doing it without getting dead.

I disagree. The job of all lights and fast Cicadas in conquest is capping. Plain and simple. If you are in a light and help your team engage, you will lose to me and my team, even if I am the only light. I know my job, which is capping. Only when we have a sufficient lead on cap points or enemies dead do I engage. I agree that it sucks that I don't get as many c-bills or xp as I should when my team wins as a direct result of my efforts, but that's just how it is. If you don't like it, run a brawler. And Corison, saying that it takes no skill to run around at 150 kph is just wrong. It is very easy to die while running around at 151.5 kph in a Spider. That's my reality. If you don't think so, I suggest you buy a Spider 5D and see how you do in it.

Edited by mailin, 18 June 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[Corison]

mailin, on 18 June 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

And Corison, saying that it takes no skill to run around at 150 kph is just wrong. It is very easy to die while running around at 151.5 kph in a Spider. That's my reality. If you don't think so, I suggest you buy a Spider 5D and see how you do in it.

Rather silly of you to assume I haven't... I have already mastered the my Com's, SDR, and Ravens. So I know very well how lights work. I wouldn't say your assumptions are very good things to run with at this point. I will admit I have never purchased a Jenner so you have me there.

The only time a light with any clue is in real danger is if they make the wrong choice on when to engage. Other than that, your only real risk is the odd lucky shot. Now if your foolish and charge a streak cat without ECM that's your choice, but I wouldn't recommend it. Lights have the speed to choose when and where to engage. Even if your being chased by multiple lights, you should be able to disengage back to your core team for support.

There are some very good light pilots out there with a ton of skill.. They know when to engage, when to hit objectives, and how to support heavier mechs...

Edited by Corison, 18 June 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[Raging Owlbear]

I think the main point that is being missed is that no matter what your role is, winning should be rewarded more than losing and the XP leveling should be as close to even for heavies as it is for lights.

It would not be a major task for the developers to re-evaluate the XP bonuses for games like Conquest where the goal of winning with caps is supposed to be the tactic used, as opposed to just running straight to the fight and losing in order to get better XP rewards.

[Corison]

Yes, the risk/return rewards need to be balanced more and wins should give a greater payout when you contribute.

One of the problems is Conquest is just poorly designed. Running circles trading caps is just a joke. I wouldn't mind seeing accelerated rewards. The longer you hold a point, the more it pays and the harder it is to capture. I could even see synergies between cap points, 1 and 2 give a boost to 3.. weight them all a bit differently.

They have done a fair bit to increase a scouts exp role in combat with Tag/Narc bonuses, but to be honest a real scouts job is mostly done before the mechs even drop onto the field. Unless you count count cap circling scouts are going to spend as much of their time supporting the main fight and hunting down cripples as anything else. They do excel in this role, and hunting down those lrm boats.

Larger maps will make the scouts role even more practical in the game, but in the end its still going to come down to mech combat.. Not rotating cap captures.

[RLBell]

Lt Waldo, on 17 June 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

(snip)but because I'm a dad with a job and mortgage, I can't always play with a consistent group. Imagine that... I got yelled at for not having a medium laser in place of a TAG.

(snip)

I am a dad with a job and mortgage and I play with a consistent group. Look up the Seraphim. If we are not the home for you, go to the outreach forum and look for group advertising casual play.