Jump to content

Spreadsheetwarriors On Ppc


10 replies to this topic

#1 Phaesphoros

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 513 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:43 PM

Thou shalt not play SpreadsheetWarrior:


View PostPaul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

It is at these levels that missile combat falls back to a level that we AND the community felt was right for a long period of time before the badness appeared. I'm going to ask you to help us test these values by FEEL. Not by playing SpreadsheetWarrior.


*shrug*

Well here's what my spreadsheet says about the PPC, comparing only to energy weapons. Alternative title: nine reasons to prefer the PPC.

The PPC...
  • is the heaviest, alongside the LPL. It also takes up three critical slots.
  • does the most (alpha) damage (10 dmg like LPL)
  • has a lower cool-down than LPL and LL (3.0 s like ML)
  • has the greatest range (540 m)
  • has no beam duration, but a travel speed (2 km/s)
  • has the highest peak dps
  • has the same heat efficiency (dmg/heat) as a ML, only slightly worse than LL (3 % less efficient)
comparing to the LPL, the PPC...
  • has 80 % more range (540 m vs 300 m)
  • has 10 % less heat efficiency
of course, the dmg of the PPC linearly reduces under 90 m to 0 dmg at 0 m.



8th reason: no beam duration not only means pin-point damage, but also a shorter exposition to enemy fire
9th reason: it disables ECM for 4 s


If you find any QQ, you can keep it for paying 1.1 % tear taxes.

Edited by Phaesphoros, 17 May 2013 - 03:05 PM.


#2 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostPhaesphoros, on 17 May 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

  • is the heaviest, alongside the LPL. It also takes up three critical slots (like LPL).


That is not correct. The LPL takes up 2 slots. It is possibly the only weapon that makes the Spider-5K salvageable outside of the ER Large.

#3 Coolant

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,079 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostPhaesphoros, on 17 May 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:


of course, the dmg of the PPC linearly reduces under 90 m to 0 dmg at 0 m.


It's actually exponentially, so anything under 50m might as well be 0 damage

#4 Phaesphoros

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 513 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:07 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 17 May 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:


That is not correct. The LPL takes up 2 slots. It is possibly the only weapon that makes the Spider-5K salvageable outside of the ER Large.

Oops you're right. fixed.

View PostCoolant, on 17 May 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

It's actually exponentially, so anything under 50m might as well be 0 damage

According to Thomas, it's supposed to be linear.

#5 MustrumRidcully

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 10,644 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 02:15 AM

That's not a spreadsheet.

This isn't either. It's a chart, a graphical representation of a spreadsheet (or at least some of its results)Posted Image

The chart shows how much damage you get for your weight out of a number of weapons of the given type if you want to deal a certain minimum amount of damage within a given time frame, if you consider the heat sink requirements to fire for that duration and the ammo cost for firing that duration for a given number of engagements.

AS you can see, the LPL and the PPC are fairly close - but the PPC has a better range, which is not really balanced. And if we consider the fact that it shoots a fast projectile for focused damage, there is another advantage the PPC has. However, the Large LAser - also with a better range than the LPL is also superior, and a lot of weapons give you more damage for your weight investment despite having similar benefits as the PPC. The generally considered underpowered AC/5 for example completely otperforms the PPC at a 12 second engagement time. Too bad that snipers don't try to alpha for 12 seconds, and the 4 second mark is more realistic for them...

#6 jeffsw6

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,258 posts
  • LocationLouisville, KY (suburbs)

Posted 18 May 2013 - 03:12 AM

View PostPhaesphoros, on 17 May 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

has the same heat efficiency (dmg/heat) as a ML, only slightly worse than LL (3 % less efficient)comparing to the LPL, the PPC...

Where are you getting those figures? At optimal range, the PPC is actually quite efficient, at 1.25 dmg/H. This compares to 1.00 for ML (and SPL), 1.29 for LL, and 1.37 for LPL. For the lost readers, more dmg/H is better.

Also keep in mind that the LL has the best heat efficiency across a broad range, from 0 to 450; and continues to be pretty decent dmg/heat further out. The PPC is much better dmg/H than the LPL as you exceed its 300m range. If we were only looking at "spreadsheet-warrior," this might seem to be a minor limitation which is offset by the < 90m drop-off of PPC; but unfortunately, most enemies don't wait until they are at 300m to begin shooting you. The maps we have encourage long-range combat and don't really promote short-range brawling; a 300m weapon is just inferior.

#7 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 18 May 2013 - 04:00 AM

Thus, why I've been asking for a range buff for LPL (to 350-360m), but that obviously falls upon deaf ears.

#8 Phaesphoros

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 513 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:15 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 18 May 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

That's not a spreadsheet.

View PostPhaesphoros, on 17 May 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Well here's what my spreadsheet says about the PPC


View PostMustrumRidcully, on 18 May 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

This isn't either. It's a chart, a graphical representation of a spreadsheet (or at least some of its results)
[chart]
The chart shows how much damage you get for your weight out of a number of weapons of the given type if you want to deal a certain minimum amount of damage within a given time frame, if you consider the heat sink requirements to fire for that duration and the ammo cost for firing that duration for a given number of engagements.

You also mention the reason why I didn't insert more complex metrics in my post:

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 18 May 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

The generally considered underpowered AC/5 for example completely otperforms the PPC at a 12 second engagement time. Too bad that snipers don't try to alpha for 12 seconds, and the 4 second mark is more realistic for them...

I.e. more complex metrics rely on more complex interpretations. In your metrics, the interpretation requires scenario-dependent parameters. It is necessary then to compare those scenarios, which is also highly non-trivial. For example: a brawler configuration typically is optimized for a high sustained dps, whereas a sniper configuration relies on high peak dps (or high alpha). Even in a scenario limited just by duration where both opponents are at the optimum range of their weapons, the brawler doesn't necessary win, because the peak dps of the sniper might be high enough to take out the brawler before overheating.

Therefore, I refrained from using more complex metrics. My interpretation from those simple metrics is that the peak dps of PPCs and the heat efficiency is too high for a sniper weapon. It wouldn't be viable if the alpha damage would be reduced, or if you couldn't shoot three to four of them at the same time (heat). But you could, for example, raise the cool-down time (IMO it's ridiculous that's it's lower than LPL atm).
But like with all claims, there's only one way to find out: test it. There can be side-effects you have not considered in a (complex) metric.




View Postjeffsw6, on 18 May 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

Where are you getting those figures? At optimal range, the PPC is actually quite efficient, at 1.25 dmg/H. This compares to 1.00 for ML (and SPL), 1.29 for LL, and 1.37 for LPL. For the lost readers, more dmg/H is better.

ML: 5 dmg, 4 heat -> 1.25 dmg/heat
For the rest, I agree. Those are also the numbers I have in my spreadsheet.

View Postjeffsw6, on 18 May 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

Also keep in mind that the LL has the best heat efficiency across a broad range, from 0 to 450; and continues to be pretty decent dmg/heat further out. The PPC is much better dmg/H than the LPL as you exceed its 300m range.

LPL has the best heat efficiency (after SL), but it's only 10 % better than PPC: (1.37 / 1.25 - 1) * 100 % = 9.6 %
I agree about the statements on PPC range.

View Postjeffsw6, on 18 May 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

If we were only looking at "spreadsheet-warrior," this might seem to be a minor limitation which is offset by the < 90m drop-off of PPC; but unfortunately, most enemies don't wait until they are at 300m to begin shooting you. The maps we have encourage long-range combat and don't really promote short-range brawling; a 300m weapon is just inferior.

Also, 300 m are brawling range: ML, AC/20, SRM, SSRM. Of those, only the ML has a worse heat efficiency than the LPL.
The LPL as a brawler weapon IMO is not a good choice atm if you can use an AC/20 (compare 2 LPL vs 1 AC/20) or SRM instead.

Edited by Phaesphoros, 18 May 2013 - 11:21 AM.


#9 Coolant

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,079 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:27 AM

View PostPhaesphoros, on 17 May 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Oops you're right. fixed.


According to Thomas, it's supposed to be linear.

I'm referring to this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...damage-formula/ and more specfically, this post: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2233482 ....even if it's supposed to be linear many tests show it doesn't appear to be so

#10 Phaesphoros

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 513 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:06 AM

View PostCoolant, on 18 May 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

I'm referring to this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...damage-formula/ and more specfically, this post: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2233482 ....even if it's supposed to be linear many tests show it doesn't appear to be so

Yes, you're right; but if it's not linear, then it's a bug (and to be fixed). It wouldn't be useful IMO to include a bugged behaviour in a general (balance) comparison.

#11 Corvus Antaka

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 8,310 posts
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationInner Sphere

Posted 18 May 2013 - 11:13 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 18 May 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

That's not a spreadsheet.

This isn't either. It's a chart, a graphical representation of a spreadsheet (or at least some of its results)Posted Image

The chart shows how much damage you get for your weight out of a number of weapons of the given type if you want to deal a certain minimum amount of damage within a given time frame, if you consider the heat sink requirements to fire for that duration and the ammo cost for firing that duration for a given number of engagements.

AS you can see, the LPL and the PPC are fairly close - but the PPC has a better range, which is not really balanced. And if we consider the fact that it shoots a fast projectile for focused damage, there is another advantage the PPC has. However, the Large LAser - also with a better range than the LPL is also superior, and a lot of weapons give you more damage for your weight investment despite having similar benefits as the PPC. The generally considered underpowered AC/5 for example completely otperforms the PPC at a 12 second engagement time. Too bad that snipers don't try to alpha for 12 seconds, and the 4 second mark is more realistic for them...


This is dead on. the issue is the instant application of damage for the PPC. 4 seconds nurf is a good start. alpha striking nurfs even better. cutting flight time back to 1600ms might be necessary still, and a touch more heat even to completely balance it, but 1 thing at a time. For myself 4 seconds recycle does feel about right considering how long a large laser needs to cycle and given all the advantages the ppc already has.





3 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 3 guests, 0 anonymous users