111 replies to this topic

[xtase]

Why is the matchmaker putting premade groups again random teams ? I though the ELO patch was supposed to prevent that. Why do I have to fight organized groups while I'm pugging ?

[Zerberus]

2,3 and 4 mans are still mixed in with Solo players and this is intentional.

Or do you mean 8 man premade? I hear this often, but have not seen a single screenshot so far..... according to the devs, 8 man is a separate queue. Considering how long PGI is waiting as I type to find enemies for 8 mans (they`Re streaming on twitch), I tend to believe that it is in fact wholly separate.

Edited by Zerberus, 17 May 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[xtase]

Well I know 8-mans are in their own queue, but after getting matched up and steam-rolled 3 times in a row by the same 3-4 light mechs (they had same camo, same mech), while playing Conquest, I sort of got frustrated. Which is why I posted this QQ.

[Bhael Fire]

xtase, on 17 May 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

Why is the matchmaker putting premade groups again random teams ? I though the ELO patch was supposed to prevent that. Why do I have to fight organized groups while I'm pugging ?

Seems backassward to me too. Always has.

Logic would dictate that Elo matchmaking should be PUG vs PUG only.

Premades have the advantage of voice chat and the ability to hand-select their teammates. If you don't have enough guys in your 4-man or 8-man (or 12-man)..you either wait until you do or take your chances and launch anyway. In other words, you can vet your teammates unlike a randomly placed PUG.

[Kanatta Jing]

Well... there is a 'in a group' ELO that supersedes your other ELOs. After a while of using it for easy stomps I imagine the match maker would start putting you in with other groups. Not 2 4 mans a team but 1 4 mans and 4 puggers a team.

Although it is possible that it would go to a stage prior to that. Putting them against 4 high elo and 4 regular players or stacking their team with low ELO players.

The plan with ELO isn't that the pain stops right away, but that it will eventually fade away.

[Keifomofutu]

Kanatta Jing, on 17 May 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

The plan with ELO isn't that the pain stops right away, but that it will eventually fade away.

It hasn't worked so far and I'm not going to hold my breath. There is no arrangement of lone wolves with Elo that will prove an equal to a premade team with all the communication tools, a preset team that augments each other, and familiarity with each other's tactics. Elo will never be the solution to that stomping.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 17 May 2013 - 07:32 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Keifomofutu, on 17 May 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

It hasn't worked so far and I'm not going to hold my breath. There is no arrangement of lone wolves with Elo that will prove an equal to a premade team with all the communication tools, a preset team that augments each other, and familiarity with each other's tactics. Elo will never be the solution to that stomping.

Exactly.

Players that are using voice chat and are grouped with people that they hand-selected should NEVER be pitted against players that do not have those advantages. It makes zero f@#king sense to try to set up a match that way.

[Taemien]

xtase, on 17 May 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

Why is the matchmaker putting premade groups again random teams ? I though the ELO patch was supposed to prevent that. Why do I have to fight organized groups while I'm pugging ?

Because by PGI's own words (believe them or don't, up to you), most people group. By their logic, the solo players would get 'Failed to find match" if they didn't.

From what I've seen by how the game seperates lances. Most people actually go in as ones and twos. Chances are your team will have 1-2 premade groups on it. I remember a few times where I grouped with a friend and we were matched with 2 other 3 man groups.

PUGs are just there to fill in the gaps. Its not often that you get matched against a team of premades and you're all 8 PUGgers.

[Bhael Fire]

Taemien, on 17 May 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Because by PGI's own words (believe them or don't, up to you), most people group. By their logic, the solo players would get 'Failed to find match" if they didn't.

From what I've seen by how the game seperates lances. Most people actually go in as ones and twos. Chances are your team will have 1-2 premade groups on it. I remember a few times where I grouped with a friend and we were matched with 2 other 3 man groups.

PUGs are just there to fill in the gaps. Its not often that you get matched against a team of premades and you're all 8 PUGgers.

Yeah, I play in both premades and PUGs all the time...but I'm here to say that a LOT of players (I mean a LOT) play solo on a regular basis. Simply for the fact that it's easier just to launch the game and jump in...instead of waiting around on TS (or whatever your VOIP preference is) and find a group to your liking.

In other words, unless you have a close knit group of friends that actively play MWO as much as you do or the time to sit around waiting on TS to find a group, you're gonna be playing in a lot of PUGs.

I get the feeling PGI doesn't understand that...or they are just hoping they can pressure people into grouping...but...that's just not gonna work...and it will only hurt the game.

[Loc Nar]

Statistically premades are fighting along side you at the same rate you are fighting against them. The thinking is that at least someone in the match should actually know what they're doing, and the hopes are that the rest of the inexperienced players can follow along and learn tactics etc. Does it always work this way? No, but it's not a bad system IMO...

[Sam Slade]

So put all groups in the same que; if you want to form up and use TS(or whatever 3rd party VOIP) then you take the chance of running into an 8 man team.

[Keifomofutu]

Sam Slade, on 17 May 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

So put all groups in the same que; if you want to form up and use TS(or whatever 3rd party VOIP) then you take the chance of running into an 8 man team.

Well that would be a little bit rough on the 4-man teams.

The other solution that has been brought up time and time again is to put a premade of roughly equal size(+ or - 1) on opposite teams. Only after that has been done do you worry about Elo and fill in the gaps with lone wolves. You wouldn't even need separate queues anymore. 8-man teams would automatically get matched against other 7 or 8 man teams.

Would solve the problem of not being able to form a group of 5 or 6 too. It's so obvious a solution I don't know how PGI doesn't see it.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 17 May 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[pencilboom]

the 8 man team you're talking about are probably 2 4 man groups that are sync dropping. I usually just run myself out of bounds whenever I meet with these ******. "Greetings from yadda yadda yadda we are 8 people ready to roflstomp you". I rather kill myself so they wont get money from me, quit match and move on to next match.

one solution that has been offered many times by people is to lock a single 4 man group to each side, so that sync dropping to achieve 8 man in 1 side won't be possible.

[Sephlock]

pencilboom, on 18 May 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

one solution that has been offered many times by people is to lock a single 4 man group to each side, so that sync dropping to achieve 8 man in 1 side won't be possible.

Then people would sync-boost.

[pencilboom]

Sephlock, on 18 May 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Then people would sync-boost.

care to explain how sync boost work?

[Taemien]

Bhael Fire, on 17 May 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Yeah, I play in both premades and PUGs all the time...but I'm here to say that a LOT of players (I mean a LOT) play solo on a regular basis. Simply for the fact that it's easier just to launch the game and jump in...instead of waiting around on TS (or whatever your VOIP preference is) and find a group to your liking.

In other words, unless you have a close knit group of friends that actively play MWO as much as you do or the time to sit around waiting on TS to find a group, you're gonna be playing in a lot of PUGs.

I get the feeling PGI doesn't understand that...or they are just hoping they can pressure people into grouping...but...that's just not gonna work...and it will only hurt the game.

They have the stats and the stats tell them that there's enough groups happening that opening the 5-8 man groups will be possible without affecting solo player experience.

Source, Answers to QnA 38.

I said this a couple of months ago, and I'll say it again. To have any meaningful way of affecting the fronts of CW, you will need to be grouped at the very least. You'll be more effective for your faction if you join a unit and can drop in multiple lances at a time.

The only purpose Lone Wolves will have (as in the no-faction goers) will be to fill in the gaps for the units who don't fill out the 12s. Of course I'm sure solo faction players will probably get slotted first.

I understand players cannot always get into a group. I solo queue occasionally myself. But when it comes to this being a team based game and a competitive environment that will be CW. then unfortunately throwing anymore bones to a solo player I just don't agree with. Already they get a chance to play in CW by filling in gaps that the groups leave and that is much more than the planetary leagues offered in previous titles. At least solo players get to participate.

But even then, they need to understand their position in the grand scheme of things. They choice to launch casually, they are accepting the fact that they are filler. Its really a win win situation. Groups that can't launch with a full 12 will get pick up members to help them out. In addition those solo players get to compete for their faction too.

This is the best situation and circumstance we can ask for without affecting the ability to play of BOTH groups and solo players. If you force a group only queue, a small unit with 7 players will be unable to simply launch. They will have to spend time trying to get a random to join, who may not join up. Why would they join? They could simply hit launch. And get an instant game. A group only queue means two groups of opposing factions (meaning Davion vs Kurita, Davion vs Steiner wouldn't happen) would have to queue up.

With the proposed situation it will take as many groups as it can fit into a game and fill in the holes with solo faction players, solo merc players for that faction, and solo lone wolf players. This means everyone gets a game when they click launch. Remember that CW is going to split the community up into 6 sections. Right now Davions can fight Davions and Steiners but not so after CW goes live. So that will complicate the launcher a bit.

Remember for any solution proposed it has to do the following:

1. Retain the restrictions of Community Warfare - meaning faction vs faction, with mercs and lonewolves filling in gaps.

2. Allow BOTH solo players and group players to get a game in a timely manner (defined as getting a game within 30-60s) by simply hitting launch.

Right now the current system fulfills that criteria. If anyone has any ideas that would fulfill that but is different then the current system proposed by PGI, then I'd like to hear it. I'm not going to accept a solution that makes a few solo players happy at the expense of group players.

We know VOIP is coming sometime at around or after launch, so we don't need that to be suggested, its coming, but not before CW works and not before UI 2.0

[Zerberus]

Kanatta Jing, on 17 May 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Well... there is a 'in a group' ELO that supersedes your other ELOs. After a while of using it for easy stomps I imagine the match maker would start putting you in with other groups. Not 2 4 mans a team but 1 4 mans and 4 puggers a team.

Do you have a source for this? I know theres 1 Elo /weightclass /player, but this is the first I`ve heard of a "Group Elo" in any context, and I tend to read the Ask the Devs and CC posts pretts thoroughly.... Not saying I didn`t miss it after all, but strikes me as "odd" to say the least...

[Keifomofutu]

Taemien, on 18 May 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

They have the stats and the stats tell them that there's enough groups happening that opening the 5-8 man groups will be possible without affecting solo player experience.

Source, Answers to QnA 38.

I said this a couple of months ago, and I'll say it again. To have any meaningful way of affecting the fronts of CW, you will need to be grouped at the very least. You'll be more effective for your faction if you join a unit and can drop in multiple lances at a time.

The only purpose Lone Wolves will have (as in the no-faction goers) will be to fill in the gaps for the units who don't fill out the 12s. Of course I'm sure solo faction players will probably get slotted first.

I understand players cannot always get into a group. I solo queue occasionally myself. But when it comes to this being a team based game and a competitive environment that will be CW. then unfortunately throwing anymore bones to a solo player I just don't agree with. Already they get a chance to play in CW by filling in gaps that the groups leave and that is much more than the planetary leagues offered in previous titles. At least solo players get to participate.

But even then, they need to understand their position in the grand scheme of things. They choice to launch casually, they are accepting the fact that they are filler. Its really a win win situation. Groups that can't launch with a full 12 will get pick up members to help them out. In addition those solo players get to compete for their faction too.

This is the best situation and circumstance we can ask for without affecting the ability to play of BOTH groups and solo players. If you force a group only queue, a small unit with 7 players will be unable to simply launch. They will have to spend time trying to get a random to join, who may not join up. Why would they join? They could simply hit launch. And get an instant game. A group only queue means two groups of opposing factions (meaning Davion vs Kurita, Davion vs Steiner wouldn't happen) would have to queue up.

With the proposed situation it will take as many groups as it can fit into a game and fill in the holes with solo faction players, solo merc players for that faction, and solo lone wolf players. This means everyone gets a game when they click launch. Remember that CW is going to split the community up into 6 sections. Right now Davions can fight Davions and Steiners but not so after CW goes live. So that will complicate the launcher a bit.

Remember for any solution proposed it has to do the following:

1. Retain the restrictions of Community Warfare - meaning faction vs faction, with mercs and lonewolves filling in gaps.

2. Allow BOTH solo players and group players to get a game in a timely manner (defined as getting a game within 30-60s) by simply hitting launch.

Right now the current system fulfills that criteria. If anyone has any ideas that would fulfill that but is different then the current system proposed by PGI, then I'd like to hear it. I'm not going to accept a solution that makes a few solo players happy at the expense of group players.

We know VOIP is coming sometime at around or after launch, so we don't need that to be suggested, its coming, but not before CW works and not before UI 2.0

Random battles will still be a thing. CW is its own entity and will be run a different way. Saying group up or **** you is just a great way of making sure a puny percentage of new people stick around. So yeah matchmaker needs to deal with the problem. And it has failed to so far.

[silentD11]

pencilboom, on 18 May 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

the 8 man team you're talking about are probably 2 4 man groups that are sync dropping. I usually just run myself out of bounds whenever I meet with these ******. "Greetings from yadda yadda yadda we are 8 people ready to roflstomp you". I rather kill myself so they wont get money from me, quit match and move on to next match.

one solution that has been offered many times by people is to lock a single 4 man group to each side, so that sync dropping to achieve 8 man in 1 side won't be possible.

I don't think sync dropping isn't as common as you'd think. Usually I've seen people just go with the 8 man que in the hopes of finding a good match.

What does happen though is that several teams have a metric ton of players, but not all are in the same squad. So you have various squads dropping on their own and then blamo, into the same game. But it's just as often on opposite sides, many of us prefer this as a chance to stomp the crap out of our friends and all sense of tactics gets thrown out the window as we charge right at them.

Also not all people that look like an eight man are. I know of three Liao groups, all of which have multiple squads and none of which use the same voice comms as standard. I've seen a pure Liao vs Liao pug where crap was all jumbled up and we all laughed. I've also seen us called a sync drop where there were two goon drops on either side and a CC drop with one of the goons. The pugs got all mad but there was nothing intention about it and the match went rather well. Furthermore I know people who do sync drop and screw with their affiliation and founders status so you can't see it when they do. So don't think a mixed group isn't a sync drop, or that all having the same flag is one. I've also seen us drop on the same team with our friends and it rapidly devolve into team killing among more noted players who typically don't fight each other just because the chance was there and someone said something of TS.

[Bhael Fire]

Taemien, on 18 May 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

I'm not going to accept a solution that makes a few solo players happy at the expense of group players.

So...in other words, you will suffer butt pain if your VOIP-enabled premade can't stomp the crap out of what is essentially the "small bus" of the player fan base? You Sir, are a villain of the most despicable kind.

Also, your use of the word "few" is delusional and obscene.

Good day.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 18 May 2013 - 10:06 PM.