153 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

What will kill the game is when it becomes tedious and boring. When there are so few people match-making takes forever, nobody talks about it, and nobody cares because the game has become too much work. If you want to work- go out and work. Don't take your Work Ethic into a Video Game.

That's what you get with an easy button. Tedious, boring. Hold one button and you win. Issue is they can do the same. No aim? No skill? No problem. Hold a button. Oh boy we just made Mafia Wars! Quick, let's put it on facebook.

Go into River City. Go one way. Watch the other team go the other way. Both people sit on the bases. Game's over. Was that fun? There wasn't any work involved. No need to strain yourself. You just walk over there and sit. When everyone has an easy button to shoot with, that's exactly what the game is. Capwarrior Online. Or in this case, Easy Button Online. What's the point of a game that you don't even have to play? I should introduce you to World of Warcraft. All you have to do is monotonously hold down the left mouse button when you see an enemy and you can watch them die. After that, play Mabinogi, where you have just as cheesy graphics, another lame setup.. but wait.. when you fight things you get knocked down.. and there's more buttons to press such as block, counter, rush, etc! Suddenly WoW is like a waste of time and money, even if it did look better.

Edited by Koniving, 19 May 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Koniving, on 19 May 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

I decorated for the occasion.

When everyone complained about streaks being easy mode, they actually played like this:


How they work now:




Play Skyrim, turn on Godmode, and type in CompleteAllQuestsNow.

Game's over. You won. Now was that satisfying?

Are you honestly arguing people play Games in order to Work Harder/ Because I think they play games to have fun.

As for your point- Up-Down-Up-Down-Left-Right-B-A-Select-Start

The only way to play Contra.

Koniving, on 19 May 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

That's what you get with an easy button. Tedious, boring. Hold one button and you win. Issue is they can do the same. No aim? No skill? No problem. Hold a button. Oh boy we just made Mafia Wars! Quick, let's put it on facebook. Go into River City. Go one way. Watch the other team go the other way. Both people sit on the bases. Game's over. Was that fun? When everyone has an easy button, that's exactly what the game is. Capwarrior Online. Or in this case, Easy Button Online.

You have 1,800+ posts.

How many people do you think make even 100 posts on a video game forum?

[Koniving]

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

You have 1,800+ posts.

How many people do you think make even 100 posts on a video game forum?

You have 800. 90% of my posts are either to help new players or promote my youtube where I make money playing video games in order to afford the hero mechs. I'm not going to argue with you further as that implies you would have to work.

Even easier and requiring less effort than playing the game is watching videos of other people playing games. Less clicking too.

Don't worry, PGI has Streak SRM-6s coming, and rumor has it they won't require lockons. Links in the spoiler.

Spoiler

Listen about 'em here!
For all those A1 catapults, you'll love this benefit from a 100% counter to all ECM within 150 meters, as it teaches you how you can use advanced sensor modules to enhance that range to include from 180 meters to 250 meters as well as 150 and less!

Edited by Koniving, 20 May 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Koniving, on 19 May 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

You have 800. 90% of my posts are either to help new players or promote my youtube where I make money playing video games in order to afford the hero mechs. I'm not going to argue with you further as that implies you would have to work.

Yes or no, do you think people want a Video Game to be a Second Job?

[Koniving]

No. It never is unless you make it one. Apparently having to click a mouse button is a second job to you. Clearly there's no fun to be had in this game at the moment for you. But that's okay, check back at my previous post. Clan Streak SRM-6s are coming and you'll never have to put forth effort again. There's a link to a video about 'em, too, so you won't even have to read.

(Edit: "a link a video" didn't make much sense. Added "to".)

Edited by Koniving, 21 May 2013 - 08:10 AM.

[Deathlike]

Koniving, on 19 May 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

No. It never is unless you make it one. Apparently having to click a mouse button is a second job to you. Clearly there's no fun to be had in this game at the moment for you. But that's okay, check back at my previous post. Clan Streak SRM-6s are coming and you'll never have to put forth effort again. There's a link a video about 'em, too, so you won't even have to read.

I await our Streaking Madcat Overlords.

[PaintedWolf]

Koniving, on 19 May 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

No. It never is unless you make it one. Apparently having to click a mouse button is a second job to you. Clearly there's no fun to be had. But that's okay, check back at my previous post. Clan Streak SRM-6s are coming and you'll never have to put forth effort again. There's a link a video about 'em, too, so you won't even have to read.

I'm talking about the overall argument that the game needs to be more skilled. This isn't even true in Table Top or Lore, in TT/Lore SRMs are Guided Weapons, it is MRMs that are dead-fire and they get a +1 to-hit to reflect this which SRMs don't get---because SRMs are guided.

As for the argument that people "Like to Work"- come on! Yes, that is why people need to be paid, they love to engage in difficult, stressful jobs. They love being stressed out and performing tedious, laborious tasks. That's why nobody ever uses cheat codes!

In fact, we should just stop paying people. People will perform work for fun, like Elder Scrolls, why should we pay them when they will all work for the satisfaction of it?

[Wispsy]

Belorion, on 19 May 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Yes, but for those missed shots, I had to wait for the lock-on to the light. Plus it is possible to miss with streaks if they run over a hill or behind a building or worse behind one of your team mates, where this isn't possible with ballistics.

Are you honestly saying that when you fired a ballistic weapon at an enemy through a wall or teammate it hits the enemy anyway? And the lockon time is rather short I mean that seems like you are saying "I missed my shot so I need to wait 4 seconds and maybe hit the next one maybe not, depending on both pilots skill, but that is just the same as me having to hold my mouse in his general direction for half a second and I will guarantee a hit if he DARES TO STAND WITHIN MY VISION(or my teams)".

The whole "a light mech should never be near a mech with SSRMs" argument is stupid. When the majority of mechs can equip them with very little cost to their build then what exactly is a light supposed to do in a game other then run around praying nobody sees them as just one of them pressing R of you = unavoidable death? What is the point in an entire weight class having only one single use on the battlefield: trolling your team by puting them a man down? At least if they
Ofc the ERPPC ECM Spider still will have a valid role (although the ppc change will hurt it lots) but that is about it.

[Nikijih]

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Are you honestly arguing people play Games in order to Work Harder/ Because I think they play games to have fun.

As for your point- Up-Down-Up-Down-Left-Right-B-A-Select-Start

The only way to play Contra.



You have 1,800+ posts.

How many people do you think make even 100 posts on a video game forum?

A lot of people do. See, in this modern world of ours, tons of us PC gamers also have jobs involving PCs, and such jobs usualy also involve lots of free time to use them. Myself im in a call center for a box office and on a 7 hours shift i average 3,5 hours of having nothing better to do than check forums for games i play. Discussing things we enjoy is enjoyable in itself, not sure why you would try and point it out as a problem.

As for your points themselves: sorry, you are wrong. The word "work" isnt a synonym of the word "effort" you know? Sex requires efforts, are you telling me that sex is work? Comon man, get a grip. For a lot of people "Fun" requires them to overcome a challenge. Thats what Games are: putting efforts in order to beat someone (player or NPC). Those efforts are what "playing the game" is. By attempting to make the game effortless, you are making it passive, in which case you no longuer "play" a game, you are just "watching" it.

If that is what you enjoy, what you find fun, there are plenty of titles for you out there. They are refered to as "interactive movies" and i highly recommand the Walking Dead series for they are amazing in that genre. But please stop attempting to force what is essentially mindless and boring for most of us down our throat. This is not a passive game, its one in which you will need to develop skills, and thats how most of us, including the devs, wants it to be. Playing is not working, but its also not standing there doing nothing.

[PaintedWolf]

So, basically, the direction we need to go is to make the video game more difficult and labor intense, not more convenient and easier for a person to use. Gotcha.

[Hotthedd]

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Bull. Having more people play the game makes it more popular- meaning people will stay.

Having more revenue means more graphics, more quality, more features- that makes people stay.

Having a good buzz in the culture makes people stay, along with a good, constant, flashy reward system.

What will kill the game is when it becomes tedious and boring. When there are so few people match-making takes forever, nobody talks about it, and nobody cares because the game has become too much work. If you want to work- go out and work. Don't take your Work Ethic into a Video Game.

Mostly wrong. Yes more players means less monotony and more people to play against, but the bottom line is that it is the customers who SPEND MONEY that keep a game alive. If 300 people who all pay, could theoretically pay the same as 10,000 people, only 300 of whom pay, it would not make a lick of difference to PGI's bottom line.

Catering to the bottom feeder "gimme E-Z mode kidz" will actually LOSE money in the long run as the adults who want to invest their time in an actually rewarding game (and spend money) leave.

There is simply too much completion between easy shoot-em-up games for PGI to grab a meaningful marketshare. Finding an under-supplied niche, and exploiting it, is where the money lies for a small company.

What the Ritalin crowd does not understand is that success is sweeter when you have to earn it. Everybody does not always get a trophy. You are not entitled to anything. Your mother thinks you are a special little snowflake, but she is the only one. Deal with it.

[PaintedWolf]

Nikijih, on 19 May 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

For a lot of people "Fun" requires them to overcome a challenge.

The "challenge" will be other players who have access to just as many tools as you do. That way the game feels more like Killer Instinct or Street Fighter then Technical Fighter Online where you have to control for pose, balance and breathing rate instead of fireballs and combos!

Yes, they need to add those features so fighting games are more about skill and more challenging- proper diet, training, exercise, position the feet are facing, not leaving yourself exposed too much, not over-extending your punch, body mechanics, stretching, and maintaining proper breathing. Now that the fighting game is more challenging, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken/DOA (button mashers) and Marvel/DC fighters are a thing of the past.

Instead of upping the ante by providing more awesome combos and special moves, we make things more challenging by adding in the most dull and mundane details like whether or not your Fighter got the proper nutrition or practiced yoga.

[Livewyr]

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

What will kill the game is when it becomes tedious and boring. When there are so few people match-making takes forever, nobody talks about it, and nobody cares because the game has become too much work. If you want to work- go out and work. Don't take your Work Ethic into a Video Game.

I'm guessing you don't play RTS's. (LIke StarCraft that has a cult following and could possibly be considered a religion in some countries.)

When I think of effort put into a video game (and I mean actual thought, not instinct/precision/reaction)

I think of this scale: (Without mentioning Sid Meier type games)
RTS (Starcraft type)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------FPS(CoD/Halo Type)
Where I think Mechwarrior should be>------------------------------ ^

If "too much effort" is the bane of a player's fun in a game, I would point them towards Hawken and CoD.
A Tactical Combat Walking Tank Simulator probably isn't their thing in the first place.

(Had to edit, since spaces weren't recognized and it put my slider over way too far towards RTS

Edited by Livewyr, 19 May 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Hotthedd, on 19 May 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Mostly wrong. Yes more players means less monotony and more people to play against, but the bottom line is that it is the customers who SPEND MONEY that keep a game alive. If 300 people who all pay, could theoretically pay the same as 10,000 people, only 300 of whom pay, it would not make a lick of difference to PGI's bottom line.

Catering to the bottom feeder "gimme E-Z mode kidz" will actually LOSE money in the long run as the adults who want to invest their time in an actually rewarding game (and spend money) leave.

There is simply too much completion between easy shoot-em-up games for PGI to grab a meaningful marketshare. Finding an under-supplied niche, and exploiting it, is where the money lies for a small company.

What the Ritalin crowd does not understand is that success is sweeter when you have to earn it. Everybody does not always get a trophy. You are not entitled to anything. Your mother thinks you are a special little snowflake, but she is the only one. Deal with it.

They do that because they like customization not because they like a challenge.

People like to express themselves in games. That is the element of complexity I like, and that is what I like about TT and MWO- the sheer volume of design options.

People do not like complex games because they are more work. Take Elder Scrolls- do you think people really like it because it is so difficult, or do you think they put up with it because it allows so much freedom and character customization?

[Nikijih]

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

So, basically, the direction we need to go is to make the video game more difficult and labor intense, not more convenient and easier for a person to use. Gotcha.

Again, you equate words that do not equate in an attempt to twist our words. You are just arguing semantics in a sad attempt at willful misunderstanding.

Look at it this way:
So, basically, the direction we need to go is to make the video game more involving and with more depth, not more simplified and streamlined for a person to use. Gotcha.

See what can do just by changing a few words? By equating any effort with "labor" or "work", you are being dishonest. Do soccer players all sit on the bench waiting for the ball to move on its own? Do football players sit in a circle on the field while refs spin coins to decide a winner? PLAYING is an active verb. It means DOING SOMETHING, or PARTICIPATING IN A GAME.

A game can be simple and deep, just like it can be complexe and shallow. You have to stop with this child-like mentality of ignoring nuances. Yes, for a lot of us, a complexe and involving gameplay is something very enjoyable. We like when games have lots of subtleties, lots of mechanics to master and a good skill curve. We actually like playing the game.

Sounds to me like you are the kind of player who picks up a SP game and goes straight to SUPER EASY mode. Nothing wrong with that. But you have to realise that in multiplayer modes, there is no difficulty setting, and most of us DONT play in SUPER EASY, thats why there are normal and hard modes.

Edited by Nikijih, 19 May 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Hotthedd]

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

They do that because they like customization not because they like a challenge.

People like to express themselves in games. That is the element of complexity I like, and that is what I like about TT and MWO- the sheer volume of design options.

People do not like complex games because they are more work. Take Elder Scrolls- do you think people really like it because it is so difficult, or do you think they put up with it because it allows so much freedom and character customization?

I think if it were easy, people would get bored and move on to the next game. No challenge = no fun.

[PaintedWolf]

Livewyr, on 19 May 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

I'm guessing you don't play RTS's. (LIke StarCraft that has a cult following and could possibly be considered a religion in some countries.)

When I think of effort put into a video game (and I mean actual thought, not instinct/precision/reaction)

I think of this scale: (Without mentioning Sid Meier type games)
RTS (Starcraft type)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------FPS(CoD/Halo Type)
Where I think Mechwarrior should be>------------------------------ ^

If "too much effort" is the bane of a player's fun in a game, I would point them towards Hawken and CoD.
A Tactical Combat Walking Tank Simulator probably isn't their thing in the first place.

(Had to edit, since spaces weren't recognized and it put my slider over way too far towards RTS

Hawken sucks because it allows for almost no customization options. Everything looks and feels exactly the same. You cannot boat in Hawken, nor can you diversify. It is like a cloning experiment gone horribly wrong.

As for Starcraft, between Brood War and SC2 Gameplay was heavily simplified. Blizzard took out a lot of units- including mind control. Also the number of units and such is very small. In fact gameplay barely changed from SC to SC2, the biggest difference being less units (which imo made the game less appealing. )

But let's consider SC2 to Age of Empires or Civilization. What does better? Arguably, AOE and Civ are far more complex games, but SC2 and CnC have typically blown them away. Why? Because they are more convenient and easier to use. People spend less time being stressed out and more time having fun and that creates a more immersive environment.

Civ and AOE games survive because while being more tedious, they allow for more customization options.

When people want complexity in a game what they usually mean is customization options to express themselves, not increased difficulty/labor requirements.

Hotthedd, on 19 May 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

I think if it were easy, people would get bored and move on to the next game. No challenge = no fun.

Again, they would be competing with other players who find it just as easy. The challenge will come from the players and not inherently difficult game mechanics.

[Nikijih]

1) you imply that Skyrim and other elder scrolls games are "so difficult". That is not true, as those games are KNOWN for how easy they quickly get and how godlike you can make yourself.
2) you argue that AoE is more complex than SC2, which is simply not true. AOE is as simple as RTSs get.
3) You argue that Civ is more stressfull than SC2. Really? Are you out of your mind?

Sorry mate, but you dont seem to have a clue what you are talking about. You use words like complexity but you dont seem to understand what this means. Take the Total War series. They are VERY complexe, and also happen to be very popular. Meanwhile, SC2 is actually rather simple in terms of mechanical depth, but is (to me) extremely tedious in having to micro manage every little thing down to my gatherers.

People do like customization, thats true. And people also like complexity, or at least most gamers i know do. Those two things are not the same thing, as you correctly pointed out. Where you failed is when you assumed that we did not know of that distinction.

Edited by Nikijih, 19 May 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Nikijih, on 19 May 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

1) you imply that Skyrim and other elder scrolls games are "so difficult". That is not true, as those games are KNOWN for how easy they quickly get and how godlike you can make yourself.
2) you argue that AoE is more complex than SC2, which is simply not true. AOE is as simple as RTSs get.
3) You argue that Civ is more stressfull than SC2. Really? Are you out of your mind?

Okay, I don't agree with all your points, but saying that is True- Does that not Confirm my Argument over Gamers prefering convenience over difficulty?

Consumers prefer convenience. I really think, 99% of the time it is that simple.

[Hotthedd]

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Again, they would be competing with other players who find it just as easy. The challenge will come from the players and not inherently difficult game mechanics.

I see. So only the GOOD players will quit. I completely understand where you are coming from now.

PaintedWolf, on 19 May 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Okay, I don't agree with all your points, but saying that is True- Does that not Confirm my Argument over Gamers prefering convenience over difficulty?

Consumers prefer convenience. I really think, 99% of the time it is that simple.

Again you use words out of context. There is nothing INCONVENIENT about playing any video game. Easy to achieve =/= convenience.