153 replies to this topic

[Nikijih]

First mistake you are making is that you are thinking in terms of TT games. This is not a TT, its a video game with heavy FPS elements. That means that yes, being offered opportunities through game mechanics to outplay your opponent IS a counter, no matter what your conveniently restrictive definition says.

Now i wont quote and dissect that whole poste of yours cause we'd still be here tomorrow, so i'll just say this:
Why do you assume that I mean to run away? Why do you assume the mechs you are facing are going to tunnel vision on you? Why do you assume there is no way to aim at someone while doing evasive maneuvers at the same time? Why do you assume there is no way to catch a missile on a building or a hill? You are twisting everything in an attempt to make a point but in the end I am left wondering if the problem is not just your lack of desire to actually learn.

You speak of things like min/max range say it doesnt help against SSRM when it does. You mention throttle juking, "mech location" and messing with elevation (+JJs) as being useless in order to avoid SSRMs, but then you just bashed me for telling you to use them against the lock on instead. You seem so intent on complaining that you are completely oblivious to the answers tryin to smack you in the face.

I stick to my point: getting a lasting lock on a light mech in a non 1v1 situation is hard at best. Good lights will weave in and out without letting you lock on long enough to take more than a shot or two.

Edited by Nikijih, 19 May 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[Belorion]

Many of the counters listed here are the counters for Ballistics, and lasers, and PPC's as well as SSRM's. Whats the difference between them firing SSRMs or SRMs is the fact that you have more power over whether the SSRM'***** you, and the enemy has more power whether the SRMs hit you.

Not to mention SSRMs are among the weakest weapons in the game.

[shabowie]

Belorion, on 19 May 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Not to mention SSRMs are among the weakest weapons in the game.

That's not the case. They were one of the most efficient weapons by the ton in the game and require the least effort and concentration to use effectively. Missiles as a whole are a little gimped right now damage wise, but as soon as that is corrected they will be back like that. A little too powerful for the skill and effort required to use them effectively. Even right now they totally throw off the balance in light and medium combat in favor of whoever has more of them.

They ought to at a minimum require a new lock on for every volley and not be so easy to maintain lock once you have it. That would add a little bit more of a skill requirement in for keeping your cursor on the target for a while for each new volley.

Edited by shabowie, 19 May 2013 - 04:49 PM.

[trollocaustic]

And make assaults, not to mention slower heavies free meals for lights.

[dario03]

trollocaustic, on 19 May 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

And make assaults, not to mention slower heavies free meals for lights.

Ummmmm no. If you are in a heavy and can't kill lights without streaks then you just have problems. Streaks just make it easier to kill the already fragile lights. A heavy without them is already more than a match for a light. Earlier today I ended up fighting 2 raven 3L's and a Jenner in my 4ml, 2ac10 catapult and even though we all started at about the same health I killed 2 of them and was one shot away from killing the 3rd before I died. And that isn't a one time thing, I've done it myself plenty of times and watched others do it too. Highlanders seem to pop them really easily too since the popular poptart builds can blow a light's leg off in 1-1.25 alphas.

[Belorion]

shabowie, on 19 May 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

That's not the case. They were one of the most efficient weapons by the ton in the game and require the least effort and concentration to use effectively. Missiles as a whole are a little gimped right now damage wise, but as soon as that is corrected they will be back like that. A little too powerful for the skill and effort required to use them effectively. Even right now they totally throw off the balance in light and medium combat in favor of whoever has more of them.

Weakest is not the opposite of most efficient. Efficiency is what the streak is all about. In that regard it is very like the Small Laser. Weak with only one of them, but efficient and effective when using multiples.

You can still do a lot more damage with SRMs or LLs.

[shabowie]

Belorion, on 19 May 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Efficiency is what the streak is all about.

Ammo conservation is what streaks are supposed to be about in TT. They are not supposed to hit more often than regular SRMs, nor do more of them hit when you do hit on a ton for ton basis, streaks just don't fire unless you hit. I posted the math on this before, comparing two IS streak 2s to a single IS SRM6, showing they would hit equally as often and an average cluster hits roll would result in 4 missiles from the SRM 6 hitting.

Belorion, on 19 May 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

You can still do a lot more damage with SRMs or LLs.

Depends. In high speed light vs light or just anti light combat, streaks are way out of line as far as how often they hit automatically compared to what a skilled pilot can do with comparable weight in SRMs and lasers. The current situation with splash damage hitting the CT is exacerbating a situation created by broken game mechanics that contrary to your assertions don't actually require much skill at all.

Edited by shabowie, 19 May 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[Fate 6]

Nikijih, on 19 May 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Good lights will weave in and out without letting you lock on long enough to take more than a shot or two.

^
Truth. Drive-by's are how you pilot a light if the light isn't using streaks itself. That's why the Jenner-D is so much more successful now.

[Merced256]

LRMs aren't Ezmode. Currently playing a C1 exclusively and while my damage is usually no less than 400 a game; you have to know when you can maintain lock and also you have to be more opportune with who you target. Its not like PPC Heroes who just pick a mech and blast away at that one mech in a circle jerk until it dies. That doesnt work for LRM focused mechs 90% of time. Why? Because of the prevelance of ECM and cover. We also can't poptart because we're gauranteed to lose lock, and with the amount of poptarts and PPC heroes standing out of cover for 1km LRM barrages is not really healthy.

SSRMs are a bit different because of their short range, and usually that means cover is less likely to matter or is easily countered with JJ. Streaks need to be strong because of the sacrifices in range, but they shouldnt be CTing with every salvo either.

[silentD11]

trollocaustic, on 19 May 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

And make assaults, not to mention slower heavies free meals for lights.

Lights are easy to kill, leg them and it's game over. For lights to use streaks effectively it means they are doing the dance of death. The best solution to lights is to have a buddy leg them, easier than doing it on your own. The real strength of lights in a fight is most people don't bother to leg them or help out. So instead you get one panic'd stalker that isn't used to shooting anything that fast because most people pilot assaults flailing around like a chicken with his head cut off.

[Cyke]

The problem may not be with how Streaks behave after they're locked and fired, but with the lack of a risk involved for the shooter before they're locked and fired.

Here's a suggestion posted a while ago:

Cyke said:

Maybe Streaks shouldn't have a "hold, achieve confirmed lock-on, fire" mechanic, but instead should have a bit of a "risk" involved.

- You must point at an enemy 'Mech with your torso/arm crosshair, and click fire
- If you're on-target, the Streaks immediately fire with full tracking, almost a sure hit
- If you're off-target, the Streaks do not fire (thus no ammo consumed or heat generated), but need to go through their full 3.5 second cooldown cycle.


Unlike current lock-on, you can't "pre-guarantee" a hit before firing. There's also a big risk of "wasting" a cooldown cycle, thus adding the risk of a "miss" (though the miss uses up no ammo).

Also, you may notice that in this idea, the skill used is basically about the same as firing a laser. Sure, you don't need to continue tracking the target for 1.0 seconds like a laser, but on the other hand, you can't target a hit location (the Streaks will randomly hit different body parts on the enemy).

It's basically sort of a half-assed idea based on how they work in TT. Just throwing it out there.

Right now, there is absolutely no way to miss with Streaks.
Much as the those unfamiliar with TT malign it, Streaks were balanced by the fact that the shooter can miss on the lock-on attempt, and therefore wastes a chance to fire. That's the key concept.

There was another poster who suggested making it even harder by requiring the shooter to hold the fire button down with the crosshair on top of the target for a full 1.0 second (almost like firing a laser) before the Streak launcher fires... and if you fail to hold it on target, the launcher's system go into its 3.5 second cycle as "punishment" for missing.
That way, when the shooter does achieve the lock and gets those missiles on their way, these will be deadeye missiles that hunt the target down, but no one complains: he has already done the hard work before firing.


Now with some modification to the idea, the same thing could be done for LRMs.
And if firing LRMs actually made the shooter take careful hand-eye coordination, precision, and concentration to get a locked shot off, I don't think we'll need ECM as a hard counter anymore.

Edited by Cyke, 20 May 2013 - 04:00 AM.

[jakucha]

Can people post their hit percentage with SSRMs? I haven't used them much lately, but mine is at 64 percent which I find funny.

[Belorion]

shabowie, on 19 May 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Depends. In high speed light vs light or just anti light combat, streaks are way out of line as far as how often they hit automatically compared to what a skilled pilot can do with comparable weight in SRMs and lasers. The current situation with splash damage hitting the CT is exacerbating a situation created by broken game mechanics that contrary to your assertions don't actually require much skill at all.

I am not saying the weapon itself requires a lot of skill, I am saying using the weapon effectively requires skill. If some streakboat gets killed first thing, then they aren't going to be doing much damage no matter what. It a brawling context (which is where streaks live) being a good pilot is more important than being a good shot. With streaks you have to be a better pilot than you do with other weapons. Especially in a light vs light situation. Now with light dog-fighting being a good shot comes back into play to be sure, so in that context a good pilot that is also a good shot can do much more damage than a streak light. Lights that run streaks up against a superior pilot are going to find it much harder to land streak shots than laser shots (partial damage most likely but some).

[hammerreborn]

jakucha, on 20 May 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

Can people post their hit percentage with SSRMs? I haven't used them much lately, but mine is at 64 percent which I find funny.

AMS (if you fire outside of 200 it will generally get at least one), walls, and range (opponent leaves the 270m limit).

Edited by hammerreborn, 20 May 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[jakucha]

hammerreborn, on 20 May 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

AMS (if you fire outside of 200 it will generally get at least one), walls, and range (opponent leaves the 270m limit).

Makes sense.

[Cyke]

Yeah, it's usually due to the enemy moving behind an obstacle or moving out of the SSRM's travel range. Firing at a target that dies (whether due to your other guns, or your teammates' guns) before the missiles hit is also a factor.

The CT coring issue should be solved by the upcoming missile fix. At any rate, we'll see soon enough.

[shabowie]

Belorion, on 20 May 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

I am not saying the weapon itself requires a lot of skill, I am saying using the weapon effectively requires skill.

Yeah and sorry I just don't agree. They are the easiest weapon to use by quite a bit. Both in terms of aim and positioning your mech.

Belorion, on 20 May 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Now with light dog-fighting being a good shot comes back into play to be sure, so in that context a good pilot that is also a good shot can do much more damage than a streak light.

The pilot in the non streak equipped mech has to be much better to win in a one on one. That just further points to streaks being out of line in what they produce for the amount of skill required to run them effectively.

Edited by shabowie, 20 May 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Nikijih]

Quote

Much as the those unfamiliar with TT malign it, Streaks were balanced by the fact that the shooter can miss on the lock-on attempt, and therefore wastes a chance to fire. That's the key concept.[/color]

Will you guys stop talkign about the TT? Get over it already, this is not the TT game, this is MWO, the PC game. Its not about "maligning" it, its about sending you a wake up call to let you know that you are playing a different game. The mechanics are COMPLETELY different. This is not a turn based dice game, its a heavily-FPS influenced game. That means it works differently by substituating RNG elements (Miss rolls) for skill based elements (physically missing your target).

For exemple, you imply that in this game you cannot miss on the lock on attempt. That is just blatantly false, as i have been pointing out this entire thread. Its just that when your opponent does miss on his lock on attempt, you never hear about it, so you assume it doesnt happen when in fact it doesn happen... VERY often.

Quote

Yeah and sorry I just don't agree. They are the easiest weapon to use by quite a bit. Both in terms of aim and positioning your mech.

Let me put it this way: if I have a ballistic or laser, i need to sight you for 0.1 seconds before being able to shoot. if I have streaks, i need to sight you for 2+ seconds before being able to shoot (if you dont have EMC). Im starting to believe you people just dont grasp the fact that SSRM have an aquisition process, let alone that good players can use it to their advantage.

Quote

The pilot in the non streak equipped mech has to be much better to win in a one on one.

The Streak pilot can ignore traveling speed and so dont have to lead targets. The ballistic or laser pilot deals a *LOT* more damage per shot he lands and has more range. Its a tradeoff, not a one-sided advantage.

I'll say this again: On ballistic and energy weapons you dodge fire, on streaks you dodge the lock on. Its exactly the same principle, its just that one of those requires you to think ahead instead of just reacting.

Edited by Nikijih, 20 May 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[Screech]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Your posts all hint at one thing: that you find aiming to be hard.

Yes aiming is harder then not aiming.

[hammerreborn]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Will you guys stop talkign about the TT? Get over it already, this is not the TT game, this is MWO, the PC game. Its not about "maligning" it, its about sending you a wake up call to let you know that you are playing a different game. The mechanics are COMPLETELY different. This is not a turn based dice game, its a heavily-FPS influenced game. That means it works differently by substituating RNG elements (Miss rolls) for skill based elements (physically missing your target).

For exemple, you imply that in this game you cannot miss on the lock on attempt. That is just blatantly false, as i have been pointing out this entire thread. Its just that when your opponent does miss on his lock on attempt, you never hear about it, so you assume it doesnt happen when in fact it doesn happen... VERY often.

Let me put it this way: if I have a ballistic or laser, i need to sight you for 0.1 seconds before being able to shoot. if I have streaks, i need to sight you for 2+ seconds before being able to shoot (if you dont have EMC). Im starting to believe you people just dont grasp the fact that SSRM have an aquisition process.



Your posts all hint at one thing: that you find aiming to be hard. From this last quote, i would say you find it very hard. I dont mean to be that guy, but im afraid thats a matter of your skills being lackluster, not the game being unbalanced. The Streak pilot can ignore traveling speed and so dont have to lead targets. The ballistic or laser pilot deal a *LOT* more damage per shot he lands. Its a tradeoff, not a one-sided advantage.

You're in a raven, I'm in a jenner. We are both in the Jenner highway. We are 1km initially apart. I will do two scenarios, one where both use streaks, and one where only the raven uses streaks


Both: 1km, we start our charge towards each other. You can target me (with 25% sensor bonus) and begin acquiring lockon, I can't target you

Both: 800m, you can target me (no sensor module) and get lockon, I can't target you

Both: 750m, you can target me and get lockon, I can only target you with TAG to get lock

Both: 540m, my 3/4 lasers meet your two lasers, you can target me and get lockon, I can only target you with TAG to get lock

-------------
SRMS: 270m and below, lasers go to optimal damage, that lock that you've accumulated over the 1km sprint now can be kept with a casual glance every 3s, streaks fire and CT hit me, my dumbfire missiles require aim to hit you while we begin the circle of death

Streaks: 270m, lasers go to optimal damage, you can target me and get lockon, that lock that you've accumulated over the 1km sprint now can be kept with a casual glance every 3s, streaks fire and CT hit me, I can still not acquire missile lock

Streaks: 250m -> 180m, I can now acquire lock and fire

Streaks: 180m -> 150m (with BAP), I can not fire streaks, you can fire with impunity

<150m (with BAP): Same for both

---------------------

Maintaining a lock once gained is a joke

Edited by hammerreborn, 20 May 2013 - 07:59 AM.