153 replies to this topic

[shabowie]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I'm starting to believe you people just dont grasp the fact that SSRM have an aquisition process, let alone that good players can use it to their advantage.

No it's that you don't grasp the fact that most good players fully understand the weapon systems from both sides and find it pitifully easy to get and maintain streak lock. It isn't hard. Not at all. Especially maintaining a lock once you have it, which is why I've long suggested requiring a new lock for every volley would be a good start for balancing them. But anyways, once the BAP changes are in streaks will be dominating light vs light and even medium vs medium combat.

If they don't fix the underlying deeply flawed game mechanics that make SSRMs so easy to use this game will have gone full ****** by the time Clan SSRM6s show up. LRMs suffer from the same flawed mechanics and if they stick to canon the no min range for Clan LRMs will present a similar balance issue.

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I'll say this again

You can say that as many times as you want. Your points won't become true. Streaks are super easy to use compared to other weapons. You act like getting a lock with them is hard and that is just LOL funny. Sorry, but they are a noob tube weapon and need to be seriously looked at to bring them in line with other weapons that require skill to use. Low risk weapons aren't supposed to be so high reward, that's just basic gameplay balance 101.

Edited by shabowie, 20 May 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Nikijih]

Screech, on 20 May 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

Yes aiming is harder then not aiming.

See you quote my post but somehow it seems like you failed to actually read it. Let me refresh your memory:
"Im starting to believe you people just dont grasp the fact that SSRM have an aquisition process"

You are acting as if you dont need to aim Streaks. Either you have never played them and have no idea what you are talking about, or you are being willfully dishonest.

Quote

No it's that you don't grasp the fact that most good players fully understand the weapon systems from both sides and find it pitifully easy to get and maintain streak lock. It isn't hard. Not at all.

Did I ever say its hard? No, I never did. Lock on is gained through aiming. If locking on is easy, then so is aiming. So what is the problem again?

Stop operating under the assumption that you dont have to aim to use SSRM, it just makes you sound like a clueless troll who has no clue what they are talking about. Streaks are easyer to use against fast targets because it has an untag delay, not because it is somehow easier to aim.

@Hammerborne that post of yours is completely worthless. Making up ridiculous biased scenarios dont prove points, they just point to your lack of actual arguments. You essentially told me that if someone plays like a complete moron in a 1v1 they will loose. That aint exactly a revelation... Thats like saying "Gauss is OP because if your target stands still you can headshot it from over 800m away".

Edited by Nikijih, 20 May 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

See you quote my post but somehow it seems like you failed to actually read it. Let me refresh your memory:
"Im starting to believe you people just dont grasp the fact that SSRM have an aquisition process"

You are acting as if you dont need to aim Streaks. Either you have never played them and have no idea what you are talking about, or you are being willfully dishonest.

Did I ever say its hard? No, I never did. Lock on is gained through aiming. If locking on is easy, then so is aiming. So what is the problem again?

Stop operating under the assumption that you dont have to aim to use SSRM, it just makes you sound like a clueless troll who has no clue what they are talking about. Streaks are easyer to use against fast targets because it has an untag delay, not because it is somehow easier to aim.

@Hammerborne that post of yours is completely worthless. Making up ridiculous biased scenarios dont prove points, they just point to your lack of actual arguments. You essentially told me that if someone plays like a complete moron in a 1v1 they will loose. That aint exactly a revelation... Thats like saying "Gauss is OP because if your target stands still you can headshot it from over 800m away".

In order to aim and hit with lasers and ballistics, the small reticle must be held on the actual mech in order to deliver damage.

In order to aim and hit with SSRMs, the Big reticle must be held inside a target box 100 times the size of the small reticle until the big reticle turns red, at which point the streaks can be fired until target lock is lost.

If you think it is the same amount of skill to do both, I cannot help you.

[shabowie]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Lock on is gained through aiming.

Not really. Lock on is achieved by placing your reticule inside a "basket" around the targeted mech that is much larger than the actual mech. Maintaining lock is also quite trivial.

Edited by shabowie, 20 May 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[Nikijih]

Hotthedd, on 20 May 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

In order to aim and hit with lasers and ballistics, the small reticle must be held on the actual mech in order to deliver damage.

In order to aim and hit with SSRMs, the Big reticle must be held inside a target box 100 times the size of the small reticle until the big reticle turns red, at which point the streaks can be fired until target lock is lost.

If you think it is the same amount of skill to do both, I cannot help you.

Well actually the difficulty with aiming ballistics or lasers is when you have to lead your target (aka reticle NOT on the actual mech). Not sure how having to point it at something is any hard... Thats like saying walking is hard cause you gotta calculate where to put your next step... Are you kidding me?

As for the SSRM, its the center of that "big reticle" that is needs to be in the box, the big circle is just a graphical novelty. Oh and that box being 100 times its size? Yeaaaah, no. Its not.

You are right tho, you can obviously not help me. For that you would need to actaully understand what you are talking about...

[Screech]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

You are acting as if you dont need to aim Streaks. Either you have never played them and have no idea what you are talking about, or you are being willfully dishonest.

You can achieve a lock-on with SSRM and never put your cross-hairs over the mech in question. That is fact and I do not call that aiming its more like looking. Please tell me I am wrong.

[Hotthedd]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Well actually the difficulty with aiming ballistics or lasers is when you have to lead your target (aka reticle NOT on the actual mech). Not sure how having to point it at something is any hard... Thats like saying walking is hard cause you gotta calculate where to put your next step... Are you kidding me?

As for the SSRM, its the center of that "big reticle" that is needs to be in the box, the big circle is just a graphical novelty. Oh and that box being 100 times its size? Yeaaaah, no. Its not.

You are right tho, you can obviously not help me. For that you would need to actaully understand what you are talking about...

You don't have to lead lasers. Maybe that might be your problem?

You are the one who thinks SSRMs take any modicum of skill, not me. Please do not read this while walking...I do not want you to hurt yourself.

I mastered Jenners and Ravens long ago. I have experience in SSRM combat. SSRMs are super easy, at least for ME. You OTOH, I guess not so much.

[Nikijih]

Screech, on 20 May 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

You can achieve a lock-on with SSRM and never put your cross-hairs over the mech in question. That is fact and I do not call that aiming its more like looking. Please tell me I am wrong.

Im guessing you mean you can lock on a target out of LOS through ally spotting? Instead of telling you you are wrong I will ask you this: please explain to me how that is different from tracking a target that is out of LOS through ally spotting with any other weapon?

Quote

You don't have to lead lasers. Maybe that might be your problem?

You are the one who thinks SSRMs take any modicum of skill, not me. Please do not read this while walking...I do not want you to hurt yourself.

I mastered Jenners and Ravens long ago. I have experience in SSRM combat. SSRMs are super easy, at least for ME. You OTOH, I guess not so much.

Actually, PPC and ERPPC are still lasers fyi. So instead of attempting to insult me out of a lack of argument, how about you take a deep breath? Aiming is easy, reguardless of the weapon.

SSRM simply trade damage and range for easyer payload delivery. I never said they were hard to use, I am just saying they are far from the OP weapon you are attempting to make it seem. They still need to be aimed, and that means they can still be outplayed.

Edited by Nikijih, 20 May 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[shabowie]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

As for the SSRM, its the center of that "big reticle" that is needs to be in the box, the big circle is just a graphical novelty.

It doesn't need to be inside the box at all actually. At certain ranges the reticle will start lock just being near the edge of the box.

Edited by shabowie, 20 May 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[Hotthedd]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Im guessing you mean you can lock on a target out of LOS through ally spotting? Instead of telling you you are wrong I will ask you this: please explain to me how that is different from tracking a target that is out of LOS through ally spotting?

He is saying that you can achieve lock without the center of the reticle ever being ON the targeted mech. It only has to stay on a "box" that (contrary to what some believe) is 10 by 10 the size of the small reticle. (That is 100x the size for the math-impaired).

[Nikijih]

Hotthedd, on 20 May 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

He is saying that you can achieve lock without the center of the reticle ever being ON the targeted mech. It only has to stay on a "box" that (contrary to what some believe) is 10 by 10 the size of the small reticle. (That is 100x the size for the math-impaired).

Well then he is simply wrong lol, how do you want me to argue against people's flawed information? The center of that reticle needs to be in the box for it to activate, and the box itself is dependant on the mech size and distance. "10x10" (fairly sure its not that big but w/e) is the MINUMUM size and only applies at a certain distance. If a target is close enough to be shot with SSRM, you WILL be having to target the mech itself. Now of course, you can get the lock at 500+ meters and just move in to shoot, but that means you are tunnel visioning your target over at least 250 meters, which isnt all that great in a non 1v1 multiplayer game.

Look, you can keep arguing all you want and QQing your eyes out, bottom line is, Streaks are low damage/low range tracking weapons. That means it will have an advantage over lights (untag delay and tracking means you have a margin of error that is great against fast moving targets). That also means itll have a disadvantage over heavies, because they leave you underpowered in terms of firepower against their ballistics and heavyer lasers loadouts and force you to outmaneuver them in order to force an attrition fight.

SSRM = better than SRM against light targets, worst than SRM against heavy targets. It is far from unbalanced, its just that you are tunnel visioning the issue by attempting to reduce it to "but its easyer to hit lights with therefore it must be better!"

Edited by Nikijih, 20 May 2013 - 10:18 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Im guessing you mean you can lock on a target out of LOS through ally spotting? Instead of telling you you are wrong I will ask you this: please explain to me how that is different from tracking a target that is out of LOS through ally spotting with any other weapon?

Actually, PPC and ERPPC are still lasers fyi. So instead of attempting to insult me out of a lack of argument, how about you take a deep breath? Aiming is easy, reguardless of the weapon.

SSRM simply trade damage and range for easyer payload delivery. I never said they were hard to use, I am just saying they are far from the OP weapon you are attempting to make it seem. They still need to be aimed, and that means they can still be outplayed.

All lasers are energy weapons, but not all energy weapons are lasers. I could draw a Venn diagram of that if you wish.

The thread isn't about LRMs and SSRMs being OP, it is about them being Easymode. (and they are)

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Well then he is simply wrong lol, how do you want me to argue against people's flawed information? The center of that reticle needs to be in the box for it to activate, and the box itself is dependant on the mech size and distance. "10x10" (fairly sure its not that big but w/e) is the MINUMUM size and only applies at a certain distance. If a target is close enough to be shot with SSRM, you WILL be having to target the mech itself. Now of course, you can get the lock at 500+ meters and just move in to shoot, but that means you are tunnel visioning your target over at least 250 meters, which isnt all that great in a non 1v1 multiplayer game.

Look, you can keep arguing all you want and QQing your eyes out, bottom line is, Streaks are low damage/low range tracking weapons. That means it will have an advantage over lights (untag delay and tracking means you have a margin of error that is great against fast moving targets). That also means itll have a disadvantage over heavies, because they leave you underpowered in terms of firepower against their ballistics and heavyer lasers loadouts and force you to outmaneuver them in order to force an attrition fight.

SSRM = better than SRM against light targets, worst than SRM against heavy targets. It is far from unbalanced, its just that you are tunnel visioning the issue by attempting to reduce it to "but its easyer to hit lights with therefore it must be better!"

Nope, YOU are wrong. I have achieved target lock without my reticle (small) ever actually being on my enemy. I have achieved SSRM lock on enemies through buildings, only needing to keep it in the big box until one of us turned a corner.

And for the record, it is you who instigated the personal attacks.

[Nikijih]

Hotthedd, on 20 May 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

All lasers are energy weapons, but not all energy weapons are lasers. I could draw a Venn diagram of that if you wish.

The thread isn't about LRMs and SSRMs being OP, it is about them being Easymode. (and they are)

Haha alright fair enough on the lasers, guess its a matter of terminology. Doesn matter tho, because we both know what I meant. And "easy mode against light mech players without ECM who dont try to avoid lock on" is hardly "easy mode". To quote myself:
"It is far from unbalanced, its just taht you are tunnel visioning the issue by attempting to reduce it to "but its easyer to hit lights with therefore it must be better!".

You ignore its low TTK, you ignore its low range, you ignore its opportunity cost, you ignore everything EXCEPT the one element that disadvantages you, then you pretend thats all that matter. Thats downright dishonest.

Quote

Nope, YOU are wrong. I have achieved target lock without my reticle (small) ever actually being on my enemy. I have achieved SSRM lock on enemies through buildings, only needing to keep it in the big box until one of us turned a corner.

And for the record, it is you who instigated the personal attacks.

im starting to wonder if you are even reading my posts before quoting them...
1) I admited that was possible at ranges outside its operating range of 270m
2) You can track people through buildings with any weapon. Turning the corner to a SSRM vs turning the corner to a 2x AC20, i would pick the SSRM any day.
3) Attacking someone's arguments or his intellectual process (how he treated the available data) is not attacking that person.

Edited by Nikijih, 20 May 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Missiles in MWO in general need a skill shot component added. From another thread where I've talked about this:

TruePoindexter said:

The missile mechanics in MWO are simplistic and shallow. Missiles operate on a very rudimentary level. LRMs, SRMs, and SSRMs always have the same behavior with no "skill shot" factor that can improve their use and give them depth. Using MW3 as an example missiles required an understanding of angles in order to use them well. The best players were capable of arcing missiles around corners or over obstacles because of this.

The way it worked is you acquired a lock like normal but the missile would fly from your mech in the direction you were facing first and then steer towards the target. If you wanted to clear an obstacle like a hill you would get your lock and then angle upwards volleying the missiles into the air. If you wanted to curve around a building you would fire the missiles sideways so that the turn would miss the building. Against moving targets you could curve the missiles ahead of the target to increase your odds of hitting even very fast targets.

This level of depth would be very engaging and help make missiles more interesting to use.

Adding more detail an important trait in this system is that the missiles continue to track their target after firing. E.G. you do not have to maintain the lock post launch. Missiles become fire and forget but have poorer tracking requiring the pilot to determine the appropriate vector to fire at. Another important trait is that missile locks are not immediately lost when angling away from the target which currently occurs.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 20 May 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[DemonRaziel]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

And "easy mode against light mech players without ECM who dont try to avoid lock on" is hardly "easy mode". To quote myself:
"It is far from unbalanced, its just taht you are tunnel visioning the issue by attempting to reduce it to "but its easyer to hit lights with therefore it must be better!".

In 1 day, ECM, or not, streaks are the undisputed kings of Light combat and Light hunting. Care to elaborate on the "dont try to avoid lock" part? Because acquiring a lock in close combat is very easy and keeping it afterwards even more so.

And as far as its downsides go, the maximum range is well within the brawling range - same as with standard SRMs, on the border of optimal range for MLs and AC/20s and better than some other weapons.

The low damage is somewhat offset by the CT-love and also by the higher chance of successful hits compared to non-lock-on weapons, especially when we are talking about hits to a location that, when destroyed, guarantees the targeted 'Mech's death.

The oportunity cost is questionable as it is the second lightest missile weapon, significantly better than SRM2s and the damage it does is by no means exclusive to light 'Mechs.

No idea what TTK is, so can't comment on that.

Edited by DemonRaziel, 20 May 2013 - 12:00 PM.

[General Taskeen]

"SSRMs are not easy mode" is the most unoriginal defense people have regarding this issue. Its the same kind of defensive posturing people use for poptarting, high alpha-strikes, and boring min/max builds that always exploit the current state of balance for a game that's still in beta.

I take it people couldn't handle using SSRM's that were skill-based in some Mech games like MW3 and MW:LL, so having something that requires more skill and taking away MWO's current programming of said weapon by improving its balance would take away their fun toy.

Edited by General Taskeen, 20 May 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

General Taskeen, on 20 May 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

"SSRMs are not easy mode" is the most unoriginal defense people have regarding this issue. Its the same kind of defensive posturing people use for poptarting, high alpha-strikes, and boring min/max builds that always exploit the current state of balance for a game that's still in beta.

I take it people couldn't handle using SSRM's that were skill-based in some Mech games like MW3 and MW:LL, so having something that requires more skill and taking away MWO's current programming of said weapon by improving its balance would take away their fun toy.

I don't know that they don't want their fun taken away but I whole heartedly agree that MWO's missile mechanics are very simplistic. Being a succesful SSRM/LRM user at the higher tiers of MW3 was a difficult thing indeed especially when most of the competitive mechs were running around at 140kph+ and could stack 5 AMS together. Evading LRMs fired straight at a target in MW3 only required a 45 degree angle and moving at least 86kph.

[Belorion]

So if SSRMs are such easy mode weapons then everyone's damage per game using SSRMs should be the highest out of all of their weapons. I have 10 weapons that all have damage per game higher than that of SSRMs including LRMs, SRMs, AC-20, and Large Lasers. In fact my damage per game for LL are about double what it is for SSRMs.

[Nikijih]

DemonRaziel, on 20 May 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

In 1 day, ECM, or not, streaks are the undisputed kings of Light combat and Light hunting. Care to elaborate on the "dont try to avoid lock" part? Because acquiring a lock in close combat is very easy and keeping it afterwards even more so.

And as far as its downsides go, the maximum range is well within the brawling range - same as with standard SRMs, on the border of optimal range for MLs and AC/20s and better than some other weapons.

The low damage is somewhat offset by the CT-love and also by the higher chance of successful hits compared to non-lock-on weapons, especially when we are talking about hits to a location that, when destroyed, guarantees the targeted 'Mech's death.

The oportunity cost is questionable as it is the second lightest missile weapon, significantly better than SRM2s and the damage it does is by no means exclusive to light 'Mechs.

No idea what TTK is, so can't comment on that.

First of all i want to thank you for actualy arguing the points that were made instead of trying to brush it all off with some generic dogma. Its truely refreshing.

Its true that the ECM change incomming tomorrow will be a big buff to SSRMs. Right now its a hard counter. That being said keep in mind that it only applies up to 150 yards, so it doesnt completely negate them, they just force your opponent to go into sub 100m range, where a fast mech can easilly outmaneuver a heavyer opponent (speed > torso twist). I kinda hope it reduces ECM advantage enough that people might want to go back to non-ECM lights for variety's sake, but sadly im afraid LRMs being in line for buffs means ECM will stay the norm on scouts =/
.
As for the rest of your post, i'll go bullet-point for clarity's sake:
1) Maximum range is same as SRM, true, but much shorter than energy and ballistic weapons (other than SL). It means they can engage you before you can engage them. Of course, you usualy also have other weapons unless youre a catsplat, but you wont have the kind of firepower a jagger or poptart can pump. Remember: just because you specialized in fighting light mechs doesnt mean thats always what the ennemy is gonna throw at you.

2) The CT love is actually a downside as much as its an upside. Yeah, sure, its targetting a part that will kill mech if you take it out. Its also the part with the most armor/hp in the entire mech (which doesnt help the TTK). It means you cannot really aim your weapons depending on which parts he has that are low armor or which critical element you want to take out asap (weapon system, XL engine criticals or leg). Take a HBK for exemple: its more efficient to take out his hump than it is to kill him, as the end result is pretty much the same but its ST has less armor/internal hp and is a much more obvious target. Light mechs on the other hand are much faster to deal with through legging them. Essentially, with SSRMs you have no control over where you deal damage. Sometimes itll play to your advantage, but sometimes it wont.

3) The opportunity cost has little to do with weight and more with SRMs. Between 2x SRM6 and 2x SSRM, the damage difference per volley is very significant, let alone over a whole match or even over a single brawl.

4) TTK means "Time To Kill" and its development jargon for "how long should a fatal encounter last from start to finish". The SSRM's low damage means that while you miss less, it takes you longuer to kill your opponent. Longuer TTK means more risks of being killed before being able to finish your opponent and more risks of him recieving reinforcements or escaping (you dont always want to chase lights...). Look at it this way: it takes 1 alpha from a PPC stalker to leg a light mech. How much longuer does it take to core him with SSRM, and how much damage will you take during that time? Thats why burst always ends up being on top in PvP game (hence the current super-alpha/poptart meta).

Quote

"SSRMs are not easy mode" is the most unoriginal defense

Thats not a defense, thats just a thesis. The defense are the arguments supporting said thesis. Oh, and btw, SSRMs are no one's "fun toy" because they are useless in the current meta (ECM lights being the go-to and the game having taken a turn towards long range sniping).

FYI i only play jaggers. 1 is double gaus + 2LL, one is a double AC20 and the other is this weird brawler im experimenting with using 4x SRM6 + 2x LXB-10 (2 SL for backup dmg in case i run out of ammo). The only mech I still have SSRMs on is my X5, and I havnt played him... well since the jagger came out lol. Altho i'll admit i used to play them a ton due to my hero farm mech being a light hunter build, but that was before 90% of the light mechs around were raven-3Ls

Quote

So if SSRMs are such easy mode weapons then everyone's damage per game using SSRMs should be the highest out of all of their weapons. I have 10 weapons that all have damage per game higher than that of SSRMs including LRMs, SRMs, AC-20, and Large Lasers. In fact my damage per game for LL are about double what it is for SSRMs.

^ And this is the bottom line. SSRMs have an easy time hitting mechs moving over 90 kph and are efficient. Thats it. Thats its specialty, thats its strong point. It does low damage. It has low range. Its not a versatile weapon. Its hard countered by a common element (ECM). People claiming it makes the game "easy mode" are only taking a fraction of said game into account.

Edited by Nikijih, 20 May 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[Hotthedd]

Belorion, on 20 May 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

So if SSRMs are such easy mode weapons then everyone's damage per game using SSRMs should be the highest out of all of their weapons. I have 10 weapons that all have damage per game higher than that of SSRMs including LRMs, SRMs, AC-20, and Large Lasers. In fact my damage per game for LL are about double what it is for SSRMs.

Ease of use and damage per game are two completely different things.