153 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

You know, the funny thing is that you can get locks on streaks far beyond its maximum range.. so if a mech dares you engage you at 270m in the open.. the streaks are technically more efficient than medium lasers on a 3L...

Locking with streaks can be kinda difficult at top speed, but keeping the reticule near the enemy target is really not that hard. Unlike every other weapon system, Streaks requires the least amount of effort for the most amount of damage. Even the current PPC meta requires a bit of skill...

[DemonRaziel]

Belorion, on 20 May 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

So if SSRMs are such easy mode weapons then everyone's damage per game using SSRMs should be the highest out of all of their weapons. I have 10 weapons that all have damage per game higher than that of SSRMs including LRMs, SRMs, AC-20, and Large Lasers. In fact my damage per game for LL are about double what it is for SSRMs.

You are completely missing the point.

Hotthedd, on 20 May 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Ease of use and damage per game are two completely different things.

^ This.

The damage you did with the SSRMs is essentially "free damage", while you had to actually work for the damage with the other weapons. This is of course a bit of a stretch, but the thing is, that to hit with a higher damage weapon, you had to actually aim at and hit your target. Plus there is a difference between doing high damage on all the body sections of your enemy and coring it trough CT.

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Its true that the ECM change incomming tomorrow will be a big buff to SSRMs. Right now its a hard counter. That being said keep in mind that it only applies up to 150 yards, so it doesnt completely negate them, they just force your opponent to go into sub 100m range, where a fast mech can easilly outmaneuver a heavyer opponent (speed > torso twist). I kinda hope it reduces ECM advantage enough that people might want to go back to non-ECM lights for variety's sake, but sadly im afraid LRMs being in line for buffs means ECM will stay the norm on scouts =/

Most of the non-ECM Lights (best demonstrated in the Spider chassi) are worse than their ECM brethren by more than just the virtue of ECM. This change might help even the playing field between Lights, but at the same time it hurts all the Lights altogether.
And regarding BAP - it's true that it only works within a relatively short range, but it counters the ECM so if one 'Mech with BAP can keep within 150m of said Light 'Mech, eveyone within 270m cna streak him to death just fine.

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

As for the rest of your post, i'll go bullet-point for clarity's sake:
1) Maximum range is same as SRM, true, but much shorter than energy and ballistic weapons (other than SL). It means they can engage you before you can engage them. Of course, you usualy also have other weapons unless youre a catsplat, but you wont have the kind of firepower a jagger or poptart can pump. Remember: just because you specialized in fighting light mechs doesnt mean thats always what the ennemy is gonna throw at you.

SL, SPL, MG, Flamer all have shorter max range and MPL has shorter effective range (missiles retain their effectivity troughout their whole range AFAIK). SRMs have the same range, so there is only the advantage in damage per salvo for SRM4s and 6s (at the cost of more missiles as the damage per missile is the same). MLs and even AC/20s have the same effective range, their advantage lies in the higher max range.
Most of the above are the bread and butter of many light builds and this helps even more to allows the SSRMs to be the king of Light (and anti-Light) combat.
Also, unless you are a StreakCat you probably have other weapons of your own in addition to your streaks.

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

2) The CT love is actually a downside as much as its an upside. Yeah, sure, its targetting a part that will kill mech if you take it out. Its also the part with the most armor/hp in the entire mech (which doesnt help the TTK). It means you cannot really aim your weapons depending on which parts he has that are low armor or which critical element you want to take out asap (weapon system, XL engine criticals or leg). Take a HBK for exemple: its more efficient to take out his hump than it is to kill him, as the end result is pretty much the same but its ST has less armor/internal hp and is a much more obvious target. Light mechs on the other hand are much faster to deal with through legging them. Essentially, with SSRMs you have no control over where you deal damage. Sometimes itll play to your advantage, but sometimes it wont.

Very true. At first I disliked Streaks because I couldn't actually target a particular section on the enemy I would prefer to get damaged first. This, however, is yet another point for the lack of skill inherent in SSRMs.
Also, unless you are a StreakCat you probably have other weapons of your own in addition to your streaks.

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

3) The opportunity cost has little to do with weight and more with SRMs. Between 2x SRM6 and 2x SSRM, the damage difference per volley is very significant, let alone over a whole match or even over a single brawl.

The damage per missile is not, however. And the less weight in SSRMs over higher usually allows you to improve your other weaponry, or engine, or armor... I am not trying to argue that SRM6s are not a better option in many situations, but this is the perfect example of a trade off. Higher damage at the cost of higher weight AND the requirement to aim your shots, or lower "free" damage and more weight to play with for the rest of your build.

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

4) TTK means "Time To Kill" and its development jargon for "how long should a fatal encounter last from start to finish". The SSRM's low damage means that while you miss less, it takes you longuer to kill your opponent. Longuer TTK means more risks of being killed before being able to finish your opponent and more risks of him recieving reinforcements or escaping (you dont always want to chase lights...). Look at it this way: it takes 1 alpha from a PPC stalker to leg a light mech. How much longuer does it take to core him with SSRM, and how much damage will you take during that time? Thats why burst always ends up being on top in PvP game (hence the current super-alpha/poptart meta).

Now that I know what it means, I can respond properly TTK is relevent regarding streaks. If you can hit your enemy with easy using the weapons with higher damage, then yes, streaks are irrelevant. However, they give an advantage to players lacking the skill to aim their weapons properly (and thus waste most of their damage potential) as they auto-hit most of the time. The damage might seem insignificant, but all things considered, ELO should be able to ensure similar level of skill between opponents (ha-ha) and the ability to hurt your opponent w/o much effort is a significant boon skewing the balance. At low-tier gameplay, streaks help with the lack of aim on the side of many players. At-high tear gameplay, streaks screw the pilots that try their best to avoid/spread the damage from non-lock-on weapons.

Edited by DemonRaziel, 20 May 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[Nikijih]

Raziel.

As much as I agree with you that Ease of Use and Damage per Game are two completeley different thing, you have to understand that so are the concepts of "easy to use" and "makes the game easymode" two completely different things as well.

EDIT:
Just saw your own edit heh,
To be fair, i think your points were very reasonable and i cannot disagree much. The thing with lights is that their defense is their speed, because that speed inherently makes hitting them harder. In turn any weapon that will be able to lock on them will have a big advantage over that class. Its post-fire course correction ability makes it more forgiving and in turn, i guess its true, easier to aim (since you dont have to take missile travel speed into account when you aim).

That being said, I do think that the longuer a brawl drags (long TTK), the more piloting skills are required as opposed to aiming skills (dodging incomming fire, maximizing cover use, spreading damage through timed torso twists, etc). The same can be said about a mech going against another of its own armor class (or above) with a lesser payload. You dont need to be a good pilot to poptart, even less to snipe. Just a good marksman. However, a low dps mech who's job is to get in the brawl or go after agile mechs will need to have the piloting skills to stay alive in there long enough to matter.

In this optic, you could say that the SSRM is built to compensate for that extra difficulty, giving it indeed a distinct advantage in that situation. But just because its easyer to aim doesnt mean it takes less skill to succeed with in the grand scheme.

Meanwhile, a ballistic user could say that lasers are easy to use cause you dont need to lead target, dont need to consider traveling speed, have a visual trajectory cue, deal more damage than SSRMs, can be boated easilly and can deal damage through partial misses. But similarly, I suspect that its no surprise that lasers are the weapon of choice for a chassis class that goes over 100 kph.

On the other hand, projectile weapons (ballistics and PPCs) deal more damage and tend to have more maximum range. They are harder to hit targets with, but typically it requires less hits to take said target out (AC2 boats being the exception).

Some weapons easyer to use in some situation than others. And then they are harder to win with in other situations. All I am saying is that by no means does the use of SSRM make MWO "Easymode".

Edited by Nikijih, 20 May 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[DemonRaziel]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

As much as I agree with you that Ease of Use and Damage per Game are two completeley different thing, you have to understand that so are the concepts of "easy to use" and "makes the game easymode" two completely different things as well.

Actually, you are correct. I agree with you on this - weapon that is easy to use, but lacking in comparison to most others, is not turning the game into an easymode.

On the other hand, in my previous post, though, I pointed out that streaks do give an (unfair IMO) advantage on several levels - Light combat on pretty much any skill level and any combat on low to mid skill level are affected by this weapon in a negative way.

Although I do not believe SSRMs are the best weapon in game for any (every?) situation, they are good enough to be used even in many 8mans and I am of the opinion that a fix to streaks is long overdue. Currently they are a lot better than many weapons that require more skill to use, take at about as much weight/crits and so on and so on.

If you disagree with me on this, that's fine, really. We can just agree to disagree. Each of us have stated their arguments and there are probably enough people on these forums that we both have enough supporters and opponents.

[Livewyr]

How to avoid getting hit by an AC20
Jank wildly, left and right- use cover
How to avoid getting damaged at all by an AC20
Advance to 811 meters.

How to avoid getting locked by SSRM2s
Jank wildly, left and right- use cover
How to avoid getting damaged at all by a SSRM2
Advance to 271 meters.


The only thing shorter range than these things.. are Small lasers, Small Pulse Lasers, Machine Guns, Flamethrowers. (an argument could be made either way about the MPL)

Stay outta 270..

[Livewyr]

Carrioncrows, on 19 May 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Yes, there is counter play for each and every one of those weapons.

With the exception of LRM's (they have their own section) these are all skill based weapons. Just by taking evasive action on your part dramatically increase's the skill required to land shots with these weapons. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses, this is good counter play and very basic. There are unique and different ones for each weapon type but I won't go into that.

By that logic, there's a counterplay to SSRM2s..

By staying out of 270 meters, you've turned the weapon into dead weight...

--------------------
When I think of counter play, I don't think of "Evasion:" I think of "Using the weapon's specific weakness against the user."
I did watch the video.

And actually, now that I think about it, simply by evading enough (avoiding lock), they can't shoot at you in the first place to even try and land a hit.. weapon won't fire without lock- there you go. Counter play.


And yes hammer, an argument could be made for the gauss's detonation as an exploitable weakness (like any missile/AC.ammo)
(I just left it out because it's not really part of the weapons usage mechanics, it's more related to personal damage risk.)

[DemonRaziel]

Livewyr, on 20 May 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

How to avoid getting hit by an AC20
Jank wildly, left and right- use cover
How to avoid getting damaged at all by an AC20
Advance to 811 meters.

How to avoid getting locked by SSRM2s
Jank wildly, left and right- use cover
How to avoid getting damaged at all by a SSRM2
Advance to 271 meters.


The only thing shorter range than these things.. are Small lasers, Small Pulse Lasers, Machine Guns, Flamethrowers. (an argument could be made either way about the MPL)

Stay outta 270..

Wow, dude. You just brought light to the MWO community. Except not.
Janking wildly left and right... does nothing to avoiding streaks... Staying out of 270m does a lot to many Lights being able to shoot their weapons...

Sorry for the sarcastic tone of this post but you kinda did it first.

[Livewyr]

DemonRaziel, on 20 May 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Wow, dude. You just brought light to the MWO community. Except not.
Janking wildly left and right... does nothing to avoiding streaks... Staying out of 270m does a lot to many Lights being able to shoot their weapons...

Sorry for the sarcastic tone of this post but you kinda did it first.

It was sarcastic.. because I don't take the argument seriously.
I never ever see lights mounting small lasers anymore.. it's almost always mediums which do just about full damage at 280 meters, unlike streaks.

(Brawling in a light since HSR; SSRMs should be the least of your concerns.)

[DemonRaziel]

Livewyr, on 20 May 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

I never ever see lights mounting small lasers anymore.. it's almost always mediums which do just about full damage at 280 meters, unlike streaks.

I mostly see lights mounting PPCs and every iteration of LLs lately. Not big fan of it. Keeping w/in 280m to do almost optimal damage with your MLs and avoiding 270m at the same time is really hard. Also invalidates packing MPLs, which are the most powerful (damage-wise) light energy weapon in game. Plus good luck staying 270m away from 'Mechs that are just as fast as you are.

Livewyr, on 20 May 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

(Brawling in a light since HSR; SSRMs should be the least of your concerns.)

Brawling in a Light pre- and past-HSR. It's a pain now to avoid all the PPCs, Lasers, Gausses and AC/20s, but... you can do that. SSRMs really are the most of my concerns, because they have a big F.U., your speed and your JJs painted all over them... Granted, right now they are mostly an issue only when I encounter another ECM-carrying 'Mech, or get hit by PPCs/TAGged. Otherwise I can fully concentrate on janking wildly left and right and using cover. Tommorow though...

[Nikijih]

Quote

By that logic, there's a counterplay to SSRM2s..

[By staying out of 270 meters, you've turned the weapon into dead weight...

--------------------
When I think of counter play, I don't think of "Evasion:" I think of "Using the weapon's specific weakness against the user."

Think for a second on what you just said.
1) By staying out of 270 meters you turn the weapon into a dead weight
2) When you think of counter play, you think of using a weapon's specific weakness against the user
3) SSRM's specific weakness (one of) is its low range
4) By staying out of it you are using it against the user.

Not sure what you want at this point... Just because you are 271m away doesnt mean you cant shoot those MLs at him...

P.S. Raziel i responded to your long post in my edit of my previous post

Edited by Nikijih, 20 May 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[Hauser]

Livewyr, on 20 May 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Stay outta 270..

That works against a streak cat. Not against a raven or jenner running at the maximum speed the game-engine allows.

[Livewyr]

@Hauser,/Raziel: thank you, you reminded me why I advocated an agility nerf to streaks a while ago when they were viable.

I'm going to break internet forum rules and actually concede that streaks need an agility nerf, for dealing with lights versus lights. (I'd forgotten about that, forgive me.. literally just did 2 finals and a 15 page paper in the last 28 hours.. and I don't drive Raven 3L/Com2D much, so streaks weren't relevant to me)

I will however maintain that an agility nerf is all that is needed. (I stress that because I remember pilots would complain even when streaks could miss.)

[Hauser]

Livewyr, on 20 May 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

I will however maintain that an agility nerf is all that is needed. (I stress that because I remember pilots would complain even when streaks could miss.)

I'd also argue for a different lock-on mechanism that requires accurate aim. But I think that is something that can only be discovered by testing.

I think we can both agree that the important part is that speed and agility should remain valid defensive mechanism for lights.

Edited by Hauser, 20 May 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Livewyr]

Hauser, on 20 May 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

I'd also argue for a different lock-on mechanism that requires accurate aim. But I think that is something that can only be discovered by testing.

I think we can both agree that the important part is that speed and agility should remain valid defensive mechanism for lights.

I'd argue that the lock-on does require accuracy- you still have to have your reticle on the mech itself, easy if your opponent isn't trying to shake you.

Speed and agility is the life-blood of the light mech, completely agree, that doesn't mean I think it shouldn't have any special counters/risks.

(Assault mechs don't have the defense against DoT weapons that lights do.. and their strengths (armor/firepower) are not an infinite resource like speed and agility is for a light mech... light mech needs to have a counter for it's infinite resource asset)

[DemonRaziel]

Nikijih, on 20 May 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

P.S. Raziel i responded to your long post in my edit of my previous post

All in all, I would say we agree with each other on our respecive arguments, though our opinions differ on the implications this has to the game. I think we have both stated enough for everyone interested in this thread and this topic to take his stance.

Livewyr, on 20 May 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

I will however maintain that an agility nerf is all that is needed. (I stress that because I remember pilots would complain even when streaks could miss.)

This would give the targeted pilot the ability to avoid the streaks with skillful piloting - very important. Losing the lock after every salvo and having to reaquire it would also go a long way in "fixing the streaks". They would retain their status as the easiest weapon to hunt Lights with, while requiring at least a little bit more skill (acquiring a lock-on is quite easy, but it is still a bit harder than just keeping it) and give the opponent a fighting chance.

This would go a long way towards fixing the SSRMs and with it a lot more issues currently inherent in the game and its mechanics.

I have stated this in another thread, so I will just repeat myself: The world of definitives is the main issue. Streaks are so good (for the Light combat) that they are pretty much a no-brainer. ECM has been introduced as a hard-counter, but it was so good, that another wave of complaints ensued. Now a new hard-counter will arrive for ECM, almost completely invalidating the previous item and putting the streaks back where they were in the first place. The rock-paper-scissors approach makes items either too good, or utterly useless (depending on whether their counter-mechanism is in place or not) and hurts the overall game balance by swinging the pendulum again and again.

[dario03]

Livewyr, on 20 May 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I'd argue that the lock-on does require accuracy- you still have to have your reticle on the mech itself, easy if your opponent isn't trying to shake you.

Speed and agility is the life-blood of the light mech, completely agree, that doesn't mean I think it shouldn't have any special counters/risks.

(Assault mechs don't have the defense against DoT weapons that lights do.. and their strengths (armor/firepower) are not an infinite resource like speed and agility is for a light mech... light mech needs to have a counter for it's infinite resource asset)

They already have a counter built into them. Low armor means they proportionally lose more armor percentage from every hit with every weapon compared to the heavier more armored mechs.

[Hauser]

Livewyr, on 20 May 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I'd argue that the lock-on does require accuracy- you still have to have your reticle on the mech itself, easy if your opponent isn't trying to shake you.

From personal experience I'd say its a trivial task. Esp with current broken implementation of Artemis and the target decay module. Might be harder if you don't have the master unlocked, but with the 2x to basic skills you get enough agility to track any light.

[Sephlock]

Koniving, on 19 May 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

I decorated for the occasion.

When everyone complained about streaks being easy mode, they actually played like this:


How they work now:




Play Skyrim, turn on Godmode, and type in CompleteAllQuestsNow.

Game's over. You won. Now was that satisfying?

Has anyone figured out how to make SSRMs spin like that, btw? I've also seen them do vertical loops over and over. It looks cool as hell, and being able to do that in a 6x SSRM Cata would make me feel like a bullet hell game boss.

[Belorion]

On one hand it doesn't really matter to me. LRMs are viable I will use them, they get over nerfed I don't use them anymore. If SSRMs are viable I use them, if they get nerfed I don't use them anymore. SRMs, PPCs, Ballistics, Pulse Lasers Regular Lasers... I don't really care.

What I prefer is for them all to be viable so that people have a choice. You can't nerf something just because some people think it is easy to use. That's not a viable reason for nerfing it.

Personally I think most of the weapons are in a pretty good spot right now. PPCs are a bit common and a heat nerf wouldn't be tragic so whatever...



but I think people are missing the point of my thread. Part of what balances out SSRMs is that piloting becomes harder. Covering for damage becomes harder (although this is true for dot energy weapons, and mgs as well).

If you really think that securing the lock, holding the lock, and not getting hit with too much damage in return is any easier than swiveling to hit with ballistics, ppcs, or srms then you are fooling yourself.

You may as well say that lasers are the only weapon that really requires more skill than the others since you have to hold it on target the longest. That doesn't mean we all need to be running lasers as the only viable weapon because it is the most difficult. It would be a pretty boring game if everyone just started running medium lasers.

Right now all the weapons (with the exception of the flamer, non-stalker LRMs and the MG, but they may get some love in the patch) are useful for their own niche areas.

[Kaspirikay]

If people don't want lock on, they shouldn't play this game.