153 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

It's not about Lock-on.

It's about counter-play, once you fire that weapon there must be a way to minimize, evade, or counter the attack.

You can do this against every weapon out there right now including LRM's.

But there is no counter-play versus streaks.

This isn't about Damage, cycle time, splash or radius - this is about the fundamental flaw in the system that needs to be corrected.

[Mazzyplz]

Carrioncrows, on 19 May 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Add missile agility and bring SRM's up as lock on weapons.

WTF!? you want to add locks to my SRM? **** your ***** in the ***** you ***** ******

[Valore]

Hotthedd, on 19 May 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

I have never met an LRM boat pilot that was a good pilot. Hide in the rear, let your buddies target for you, spam LRMs, rinse, repeat. I am sure some exist, just as I am sure extraterrestrial life exists, I have just never met either.

A noob LRM boat will get 2 shots of his LRM salvoes off, be flanked by a Raven 3L because of his crap positional sense, then eaten alive.

A good LRM boat will wait until his Atlas buddy has got your entire attention, then nuke your face off at around 300 - 400m with TAG in a position that leaves you no room to run.

This view is displaying a common problem that the majority of the player base has. Which is only considering skills you think are important actual 'skill' and belittling everything else.

This is meant to be a tactical game, not Brawlwarrior 'Let's close and touch nipples until one of us dies' Online.

[Kaspirikay]

Carrioncrows, on 20 May 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

It's not about Lock-on.

It's about counter-play, once you fire that weapon there must be a way to minimize, evade, or counter the attack.

You can do this against every weapon out there right now including LRM's.

But there is no counter-play versus streaks.

This isn't about Damage, cycle time, splash or radius - this is about the fundamental flaw in the system that needs to be corrected.

Ecm was the counter. But I think lockbreaking flares would do better.

[Valore]

The majority of the player base is stupid though. That's not even worth arguing about.

It is funny how people love demarcating what defines skill, and then go on to label anything they're bad at as 'cheesy' or 'unskilled'.

[Carrioncrows]

Mazzyplz, on 20 May 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

WTF!? you want to add locks to my SRM? **** your ***** in the ***** you ***** ******

Watch this Video - http://www.youtube.c...d&v=zWZBLA-Y8zg

This is how ALL srm's should work, not just streaks. They don't all hit, they have missile agility, they don't do insta turns.

That is good counter play,

It takes skill to use them, lining up shots to make the most of your missiles hit, having an attack angle that won't exceed your missiles agility.

Alternatively the other player can roll torso, use evasion to lose the missiles and jumpjets to avoid shots. These are all good aspects.

Streaks as they are not is not an example of good counter-play.

[Belorion]

Carrioncrows, on 20 May 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

It's not about Lock-on.

It's about counter-play, once you fire that weapon there must be a way to minimize, evade, or counter the attack.

You can do this against every weapon out there right now including LRM's.

But there is no counter-play versus streaks.

This isn't about Damage, cycle time, splash or radius - this is about the fundamental flaw in the system that needs to be corrected.

You can't avoid lasers or ballistics after they have been fired at least not at ssrm ranges.

[Livewyr]

dario03, on 20 May 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

They already have a counter built into them. Low armor means they proportionally lose more armor percentage from every hit with every weapon compared to the heavier more armored mechs.

You miss the point. Their speed and agility is only going to decrease (as of right now) 1 or 2, of 2 ways: Being legged, or being killed. Outside of that, A jenner is going to go top speed for the whole match.

An Atlas's armor starts strong, but every dink and slam reduces it, and it doesn't recover. It isn't an infinite source of protection like speed/agility is.

(Speaking of which, make high heat slow you down.. )
-------------------
@Hauser and Raziel

I still think the Agility nerf would be sufficient. (Especially since requiring lock-on after each shot would make the RoF something like.. 8 or more).. and the (agility nerfed) homing just wouldn't be worth it.

The agility nerf would make it so they can't just click and profit, they'd have to wait until you were moving in a direction not perpendicular to them, and would reduce their time window if you were moving towards them at an extreme angle

[Keifomofutu]

Kaspirikay, on 20 May 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Ecm was the counter. But I think lockbreaking flares would do better.

Counter-play not counter. ECM was a counter but only in the sense that it was a magical off switch. That is both boring and leaves your streaks either situationally too strong(no ecm) or completely useless(ecm). That still isn't balance that's the opposite. Counter-play means you affect how the other guy has to act during the match but you don't completely shut him down.

[DemonRaziel]

Belorion, on 21 May 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

You can't avoid lasers or ballistics after they have been fired at least not at ssrm ranges.

You have never missed AC/20 shot within its effective range? Nor medium and small lasers?
And even if you didn't, torsotwisting and movement helps with spreading the damage or directing it to low(er) priority section of your 'Mech. You don't have this benefit when it comes to streaks.

[Belorion]

DemonRaziel, on 21 May 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

You have never missed AC/20 shot within its effective range? Nor medium and small lasers?
And even if you didn't, torsotwisting and movement helps with spreading the damage or directing it to low(er) priority section of your 'Mech. You don't have this benefit when it comes to streaks.

My streak accuracy is 75.22
My LL accuracy is 85.5
My ML accuracy is 89.7
My SL accuracy is 77.89...

My AC-20 is a tad lower, but with the difference of damage it more than makes up for it.
AC-20 66.48 (also use them a lot past optimal range where its easier to miss).

Most likely if looking at figures just under optimal SSRM range my AC-20 accuracy is about the same.

[Carrioncrows]

Belorion, on 21 May 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

You can't avoid lasers or ballistics after they have been fired at least not at ssrm ranges.

Yes you can, and you can minimize the damage they do with evasive action, torso rolling or at the very least interjecting a location that you prefer to get hit over what the other guy is aiming at. Being evasive lowers their chance of hitting you.

Being evasive against streaks just makes you look like a fool when they splash against your torso.

I'll point this out again: If a streak missile hits an object, that's not you being clever. That's the other guy being lazy and holding down the trigger.

[Belorion]

Carrioncrows, on 21 May 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

Yes you can, and you can minimize the damage they do with evasive action, torso rolling or at the very least interjecting a location that you prefer to get hit over what the other guy is aiming at. Being evasive lowers their chance of hitting you.

You can't torso twist after the shot has been fired. There isn't enough time between when its fired and when it hits to move. They can move in an evasive manner but that is not the same thing.

Again, being evasive can prevent or lose their SSRM lock as well.

Take this video for example. They aren't missing much with either lasers or ssrms. There are times when they can't fire ssrms due to no lock, where the ml are all they have to attack with. The larger mechs such as the Atlas, or Stalker have lock on boxes about the size of the mech itself.

[Stoicblitzer]

Hotthedd, on 19 May 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

I have never met an LRM boat pilot that was a good pilot. Hide in the rear, let your buddies target for you, spam LRMs, rinse, repeat. I am sure some exist, just as I am sure extraterrestrial life exists, I have just never met either.

There aren't many and I think the good ones left when ECM went live. Maybe we will see some decent ones today.

[Livewyr]

Stoicblitzer, on 21 May 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

There aren't many and I think the good ones left when ECM went live. Maybe we will see some decent ones today.

I know I've already rebuilt my Atlas D to include some ALRM15s, rebuilt my Cat C1 with ALRM15s and ML, built an A1 with 2ALRM15s and4 SSRM2s.. Still have my C4 with ALRM20s..

Bring me my missiles.

[Carrioncrows]

Belorion, on 21 May 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

You can't torso twist after the shot has been fired. There isn't enough time between when its fired and when it hits to move. They can move in an evasive manner but that is not the same thing.

Again, being evasive can prevent or lose their SSRM lock as well.

Take this video for example. They aren't missing much with either lasers or ssrms. There are times when they can't fire ssrms due to no lock, where the ml are all they have to attack with. The larger mechs such as the Atlas, or Stalker have lock on boxes about the size of the mech itself.

You understand how lasers work? they are a beam that deals damage over the duration of 1 sec and 0.75 secs depending on the type. Of course you can torso roll.

Preventing a lock on isn't counter play. That's you running from a fight.

You will be locked up, it's going to happen. You might buy yourself a few seconds extra to prevent being locked up but once you are what do you do for the rest of the match. That is what I am addressing that needs to be changed.

Speaking of which why are you so opposed to bringing streaks in line. What is this "Don't take my candy away" mentality. Do you guys rely upon streaks that much?

[Screech]

I am not sure why SSRM have the same lock-on as LRM. I would rather have SSRM shoot a tag laser for a 2-2.5 second duration. At the end of the duration if the tag was on target 100% then the missiles fire and hit, if not nothing happens and system resets. Having a visible beam will allow people to trace on the target. I think this would be a better interpretation to of SSRM then what we currently have.

[DemonRaziel]

Belorion, on 21 May 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

You can't torso twist after the shot has been fired. There isn't enough time between when its fired and when it hits to move. They can move in an evasive manner but that is not the same thing.

Again, being evasive can prevent or lose their SSRM lock as well.

Not much more to be said anymore, I'm afraid as we are currently just running in circles. You think SSRMs can be avoided with aggresive piloting while at the same time think aimed weapons unavoidable at the brawling range of 270m and less.

We, on the other hand, are of the opposite mind set, thinking its much easier to hit with streaks that are guided, and keep the lock on once established is easier than hitting enemy 'Mech repeatadly with ballistic or energy weaponry - especially when fighting fast moving targets such as most light and many medium 'Mechs.

Agree to disagree and be done with it?

[Belorion]

Carrioncrows, on 21 May 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

You understand how lasers work? they are a beam that deals damage over the duration of 1 sec and 0.75 secs depending on the type. Of course you can torso roll.

Preventing a lock on isn't counter play. That's you running from a fight.

You will be locked up, it's going to happen. You might buy yourself a few seconds extra to prevent being locked up but once you are what do you do for the rest of the match. That is what I am addressing that needs to be changed.

Speaking of which why are you so opposed to bringing streaks in line. What is this "Don't take my candy away" mentality. Do you guys rely upon streaks that much?

I haven't run streaks much at all until recently.

Have you read any of my posts? I have stated several times that lasers take the most skill of all the weapons to aim since the beam has to be in place the longest to do maximum damage. However they are also the easiest to do partial damage with, so you are going to start taking damage where they start firing.

Ballistics and ppcs don't have a dot portion. They are either going to hit or not, and you can't torso twist out of the way.

Preventing lock is most certainly not running from a fight. If you are running from a fight, its going to be easier for them to lock you up. You can get behind them, use your JJ, dodge in and out of building or between parts of the terrain, you can duck behind their team mates...

[Carrioncrows]

You can torso twist to interject a different location than what the attacker intended, hard to do the closer they are I grant you but still doable.

Unless you have ECM and he doesn't at best you prevent the lock for a few more seconds, as I've said. You can't engage another mech with out getting locked up.

Oh sure your little jenner can *** at an atlas in between buildings from time to time but the moment you decide to do something other than take potshots your going to get locked up and owned.

light on light is impossible to avoid getting locked up, it's going to happen. And it's going to happen quicker if your attempting to engage, as oppossed to evade and put buildings between him and you (Running away in other words)

The lock on or not lock on isn't the issue. It's what you do once you are.

Against LRM's there are hundreds of different things you can do depending on the situation.

Against Streaks there is like 3. Run, die and don't get locked up apparently.

Those are not valid options, just bad ones.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 21 May 2013 - 08:45 AM.