76 replies to this topic

[Zarlaren]

The Atlas would just do laps around it and the big turrets would be too slow to aim at the Atlas while the Atlas just beats on it like a Jenner or Raven does to a Atlas. Heavy and Big doesn't always mean better so you got 1000 -1500 tons of armor it will just give the Atlas few more hits in before trashing the 1000-1500 ton tank. Assuming the tank can even hit the Atlas yes it would do tremendous damage but you would need to be fast with the heavy turrets. I'm assuming the Atlas would cripple the tank before the tank could get off a few shots not to mention the Atlas has lrms and could soften the tank up to kill it off with AC/20's and large lasers maby a Guass Rifle too. How many lrms can a 1000-1500 ton tank take before it is weak enough for a guass rifle round to destroy it? IMO the Tank would move like a snail and the turrets proboly turtle speed while the Atlas maby moving at a level or two faster so aiming at the Atlas would be difficult assuming the Atlas has XL 385 engine.

Big is cool but sometimes when it comes to performance it lacks a bit in the area of speed.

[Count Zero 74]

You want to know how a German Tank would do in Battletech?

Just ask a german then

Ok, so how about something like this:



http://s27.postimg.o...lh2tf/tiger.jpg

Edited by Count Zero 74, 30 December 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[Count Zero 74]

And before someone starts complaining: "But there are no weapon stats !!!!"

Here they are:



http://postimg.org/image/rgjv7lv77/



http://s7.postimg.or...duzzaz/wea2.jpg



http://s24.postimg.o...25s3et/wea3.jpg

[Count Zero 74]

And so noone can call me a {Godwin's Law} (will probably happen anyway cause as we all know all germans are) here's something for my American and Russian friends who liberated us. ( as a former west-german to be exact: Thx to the Russians for beating us and thx to the Americans for liberating us from Russian occupation).



http://s15.postimg.o...uaz/sherman.jpg



http://s7.postimg.or...97bc6m3/T34.jpg

Btw, there's more of that stuff if u want, some british, japanese and italian tanks and airplanes. Just post a request or send me a message

[Count Zero 74]

I know, I know, forgot the record sheets, stop complaining already, will you.....

Here they are:



http://s22.postimg.o...gcokx/image.jpg



http://s29.postimg.o...k4rt3/image.jpg



http://s10.postimg.o...nb97t/image.jpg

Btw, for all of you out there who would like to play the boardgame but have no other players living near them or are just way to lazy to shuffle around all the paper and dice and calculating to-hit-rolls etc....

http://megamek.info

[Count Zero 74]

AlexanderVicca, on 09 June 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

I do believe that is an SPG, or Mobile artillery not a tank (the StuG is as well). I personally don't agree wit the Low bar that battletech gives WW2 vehicles, the BAR of a WW 2 vehicle was it's armour value, you could fire enough rounds to kill an atlas at an M3 halftrack and you hit with every shot only to go though one side and out the other. the Ratte has to be built, chances are who ever builds it will upgrade it (probably) use more advanced shells. and to top it all off, if you go by BT rules and give weapons their respective power, you're looking at probably the Ratte's guns being Light N/Gauss, not a NAC 10. and just a tip the Ratte's turret comes from a ship and has the third gun removed.

That thing in the picture is not a P 1000 or a P 1500 that is the rail-road gun the germans used in the siege of Sewastopole.
If u want to understand the P 1000 and P 1500 and the reasons why they came up with it u have to go back to WW 1 because without that war the whole mess that happened later wouldn't have happenend at all.

The Germans, like the allies started using rail-mounted guns vry early in WW I. The French where actually the first because that way they could use some of their heavy coastal artillery against the german land forces.
Here are some of the bigger WW I railroad guns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_305_mm_Modèle_1893/96_gun
http://en.wikipedia....nch_Railway_Gun

Edited by Count Zero 74, 30 December 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Count Zero 74]

The Germans of course in their efficient and straightforward way came up with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38_cm_SK_L/45_"Max"

Those guns where quite effective cause WW I wasn't what u could call a mobile war and the threat from air attack wasn't as big as it would be in later wars. So when the german army thought about a way to destroy the french maginot-line in the next war the first thing that came to their mind was a big gun and they started building this:

http://en.wikipedia....Schwerer_Gustav

But as we all know the so called Blitzkrieg rendered that thing obsolete and it was finished to late for the french campaign anyway. The only time the Gustav saw combat was on the Crimea at the siege of Sewastopole. Setting up the gun took over one month and they had to lay more than 20 km of railroad, 2 tracks next to each other. Actually the only way to traverse the gun was to lay some tracks in a semi-circle in front of it and turn it on its 8 bogies. The highest rate of fire was on June 5th 1942 when they fired 14 shots/day and after firing about 250 test shots and 48 shots in combat the barrel was worn out and the Gustav and the 2nd gun the Dora spend the rest of the time till their destructiobn hiding in railway tunnels.

However the germans did use some smaller railway guns quite often. The most common was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_K5

But the problem they all had in common was their low mobility once in combat, and their dependency on railroad tracks.

[Count Zero 74]

And this is where we come to the P1000 and P1500. They weren't some monster-tanks, rolling bunkers or whatever History Channel wants you to believe "could have changed the war".
They where supposed to be a slightly more mobile siege-artillery than the big railway guns. The first one was the P1000 which was planned to carry (in the tradition of the vry first railway-guns) some surplus guns from the Battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. The P1500 was supposed to take the same gun as the Gustav and the Dora. If the programms wouldn't have been cancelled quite quick only 2 or 3 of them would have been build anyway. But....

We germans like big guns and once we got something in our heads.....

They came up with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Gerät this should give u some idea how the 1000 and 1500 would have been used.

For the job of siege-artillery they used this in the late war: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Sturmtiger

[TripleEhBeef]

Too bad a single Allied dive bomber could have wrecked that thing. Just need one bomb to penetrate the top armour and all that fuel and ammunition would have gone up like the 4th of July.

X-Wing vs Death Star before it was cool.

[Metus regem]

Honestly, the tank would win.... All it has to do is sit back at 1.5km and the Atlas cannot do a damned thing to it...

[ShinVector]

Atlas DDC LRM Boat Wins.

[Metus regem]

Again, I said 1.5km, 50% longer range than the DDC LRM boat, as ECM does not help against direct fire weapons, and DDC would have to expose itself to get a weapons lock, and get into range.

[kosmos1214]

thepartisan, on 02 June 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Tanks were made obsolete when the first mech came out (The Mackie). You can have heavy armour, you can have insane guns. But if your manoeuvrability sucks then you will have a hard time. Ask the history books why the T-34 was so successful when the Germans made technically superior tanks. as for the Ratte..... It would lose badly. The Atlas has better manoeuvrability and has a payload which will hurt when it gets to the side and back armour.

not true at all in the bt world there are meany meany tanks in production

J4ckInthebox, on 02 June 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

A single small laser shot could probably blast its way through that primitive steel armor and fry everyone inside with ease.

nope and nope go look at the stats for primitive armor

Nik Reaper, on 02 June 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

I've got a bit of a side question when all this stuff about tanks is being said, why is it that Mechs are superior to BT tanks of the same generation?

Many of them carry the same type of weapons, some are even better armed than most mechs like: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Burke and http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Demolisher , so if they mount the same type of armor and the weapons are the same, the only usual difference is that most vehicles don't use a fusion generator, what do mechs have going for them other than the rule of cool?

well they actually had to nerf tanks several times in fact as in the old days of bt as they kept seeing players take infantry and tanks rather then mechs and win and be more likely to win then the player who brought mechs

Melcyna, on 05 June 2013 - 02:31 AM, said:

It's fun, at least i am thoroughly enjoying this especially when it goes back and forth...

back pre uni, lots of us geeks would do this for fun together during break and it was a blast, good old days...

now that we actually finished our course, worked, etc... most of us ran out of ideas to make it plausible in any way, that and when you get hard math and reality rammed into your head non stop you start doing it on the sideline a lot and well... BT is pretty sloppy with their figures and design when you actually seen a proper one and compare them, so it actually gets pretty uninteresting now with the old timers since everything settled as 'BT's common sense is lostech'

very true very true bt in fact has a lot of physics flaws and they are even on the easy side to find if you know where to look but to be fair the rule of cool comes in to play and the fact that good games and reality tend to be at opposite ends from each other

[Nebfer]

Well lets see an Atlas has a combat speed of 54kph, with a typical "noncombat" top speed of 75.6kph (sat uplink and sprinting), the Atlas is more mobile than the P1000 (in actuality it's most likely going to be notably heavier than the projected weight was).

Considering that B-tech Gauss Rifles fling their 125kg slugs at speeds over 1,720m/s, resulting a Ke of ~192 megajoules (likely a bit higher as I doubt it's just at mach 5), the SK C/34 only tops out at 130 megajoules (890m/s & 330kg), resulting that the Gauss rifle having 50% more Ke (though the Naval gun has at best 33% more momentum).
These Gauss slugs only deal 15 B-tech damage, as the German naval gun is notably less Ke it's perhaps at best roughly equal in capability's.

How much damage B-tech ballistic weapons will do to the P1000, I would not know, though they should do something, however Energy weapons will logically cut the P1000 to ribbons, as energy weapons are a "out of character" problem for the era.

Siming this via the game rules, well it will have Bar 5 armor (so anything with 6 or more damage will cause a critical hit chance), and likely be armed with a pair of sniper or long tom analogs, and will be using the mobile structure rules. It should have at best a basic fire control (+1 to hit), and being a "Mobile Structure" it would have a -4 on the attacker roles (as per firing on buildings), It will have a maximum speed of 2 hexes per turn (21.6kph) and max HP per hex is 300 (150 armor and 150 structure, to destroy the "center" hex needs to be destroyed).

So game play wise it would be capable of damaging or even destroying the Atlas, but it would quickly find it self turned to swiss cheese.

[Nightshade24]

My money is on the atlas.

Armour

Armour of atlas: "Standard BattleMech armor is composed of several layers providing various degrees of protection and support. The first layer is extremely strong Titanium alloyed with steel, the result of crystal alignment and radiation treatment, which is also very brittle. The second layer is a ceramic, cubic boron nitride, which combined with a web of artificial diamond fibers acts as a backstop to the steel layer. These two layers rest atop a titanium alloy honeycomb structure which provides support, and a layer of self-sealing polymer sealant which allows for space and underwater operations."[/color]
(when BT armour is hit, it comes of a bit but obsorbs most of the armour. this is how internals are exposed after awhile)

Ratte: 150-360 mm of steel (angle doesn't help that much in BT universe due to how the weapons work)


Atlas wins in armour.



Weapons

Atlas: AC 20, 2 Medium lasers, 1 SRM 6, 1 LRM 20. + 2 reverse mounted Medium alsers.

AC 20 = "The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (Hgh-Explosive armor-Percing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.
Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.[color=#000000]
An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output."

You hear that? HEAP. High Explosive Armour Piercing... and this is a high velocity huge shell that is nearly as big as the armour of the ratte itself. It'll pen and explode inside this tank destroying nearly anything... It could be possible that the shell pens right through to the otherside of the tank...

Even then the SRM's and LRM's are more then enough to critically damage the tank or knock it out . Especially the LRM's as they attack the vehicle from above... it's weakest armoured area.

The medium lasers well I thikn they will be useless at doing to much damage to the tank however it can critically overheat the tank due to the fact that unlike BT vehicles nad mechs, it has no insulation from heat and cold. So it can easily get a lot of heat by the lasers.


Ratte:

2x 280 mm 54.5 SK C/34
1x 128 mm KwK
8x 20 mm Flak38[
2x 15 mm MG 151/15


This isn't in HEAP, it's a solid AP round I believe or an APC but even then it'll not do to much damage to a mech... even the internals will be safe due to the lack of explosives the AP ammo has.


the 2 x 280 mm's are technically a poor AC 20 or an AC 10 that took to many crit slots. Due to the lower velocity and AP the BT designation of weapons list it as either an AC 10 or 20 that isn't that effective so to say... But lets pretend it can kinda be identical in damage to those weapons...
1 x 128 mm also fires AP and it is like an AC 5 in terms of damage designation.
8 x 20 mm flak is pretty much like BT machine guns kinda towards a battlemech... solid HE or HEIF or HE-T or what ever rounds... This will not damage mech armour but can damage internals if cored.

2 x 15 mm... this is a literal machine gun but it is not going to have any special crit chance due to not being HE ammo due to the small cal of the gun.


Let's point the fact the turret moves so slowly that an atlas can run circles around this tank without the tank able to fire on it due to it's slow turret turn time and slow turning abilities.



Another point to atlas.



Speed

Atlas: 54 kph

Ratte: 40 kph

atlas wins again.



Verdit? Atlas wins.


However in a certain situation the Ratte could possibly kill an atlas. But the thing is WWII vehicles had to guess, fire, and then adjust to hit things... the Atlas has a bloody targeting computer which can make a pilot land 100% of it's shots into a specific area of the tank. So it could be possible that without the atlas running circles around it the tank may have issues hitting the atlas due to the bullet drop and range issues. (I know the atlas is huge... but so are huge battleships and the ratte (well the main gun I mean which is on the battleships germany had.. ) also missed there targets a lot... Not to mention there is no training for people to know how big an atlas is and thus have no idea if it is 3 km away or 1 km away. Also note if the atlas has dazel paint it'll be even harder to hit it...)


Ratte has nothing on the demolisher and demolisher II....

Demolisher I:

2 AC 20's. (aka this thing can do more damage on an alpha strike then the entire Ratte... while having some slopped armour....)

Demolisher II:




2 UAC 20, 1 LBX 10, and a machine gun.

This thing can do anything a ratte can do and better...



Sorry but comparing modern day vehicles to a Battletech vehicle isn't the best way to get at it...

if it was a Mackie and a Ratte in a fight then my money is on the tank. But besides the early mechs and some light mechs I think the ratte will have problems...

Edited by Nightshade24, 06 January 2015 - 09:19 PM.

[Nebfer]

Nightshade24, on 06 January 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

My money is on the atlas.

Armour

Armour of atlas: "Standard BattleMech armor is composed of several layers providing various degrees of protection and support. The first layer is extremely strong Titanium alloyed with steel, the result of crystal alignment and radiation treatment, which is also very brittle. The second layer is a ceramic, cubic boron nitride, which combined with a web of artificial diamond fibers acts as a backstop to the steel layer. These two layers rest atop a titanium alloy honeycomb structure which provides support, and a layer of self-sealing polymer sealant which allows for space and underwater operations."[/color]
(when BT armour is hit, it comes of a bit but obsorbs most of the armour. this is how internals are exposed after awhile)

Ratte: 150-360 mm of steel (angle doesn't help that much in BT universe due to how the weapons work)


Atlas wins in armour.

Quit likely on the armor, by in large penetrative hits are very difficult to reliably do in B-tech in any case.

Quote

Weapons

Atlas: AC 20, 2 Medium lasers, 1 SRM 6, 1 LRM 20. + 2 reverse mounted Medium alsers.

AC 20 = "The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (Hgh-Explosive armor-Percing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.
Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.[color=#000000]
An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output."

You hear that? HEAP. High Explosive Armour Piercing... and this is a high velocity huge shell that is nearly as big as the armour of the ratte itself. It'll pen and explode inside this tank destroying nearly anything... It could be possible that the shell pens right through to the otherside of the tank...

I would not sell out the 11 inch guns so quickly, the amount of Ke and momentum is likely bound to a fair bit of something to the mech, though in all likelihood it would not generally use AP around but HE, as any ground target worth shooting at would not generally need AP ammo, as even a M1 Abrams would die to a direct hit by a 11 inch HE round, and even a near miss is likely to cause significant damage. The bigger problem is the fact that it would take at lest 20 seconds to reload the main guns, and likely longer (I would easily see a full minute, I do not think it would have the same fire rate as the naval guns), if the round missed. Other issues is that the Atlas has a off road combat speed of 54kph and can easily engage in combat at these speeds, WW2 era vehicles had little ability to aim with any sort of accuracy at even walking speeds, and generally stopped to fire

Even then the SRM's and LRM's are more then enough to critically damage the tank or knock it out . Especially the LRM's as they attack the vehicle from above... it's weakest armoured area.

Quote

The medium lasers well I thikn they will be useless at doing to much damage to the tank however it can critically overheat the tank due to the fact that unlike BT vehicles and mechs, it has no insulation from heat and cold. So it can easily get a lot of heat by the lasers.

Likely, even modern tanks are not going to fair well to high yield energy weapons, going by the rules IS medium lasers are not going to "penetrate" the armor, even so their going to do some damage.

Quote

Ratte:



2x 280 mm 54.5 SK C/34
1x 128 mm KwK
8x 20 mm Flak38[
2x 15 mm MG 151/15


This isn't in HEAP, it's a solid AP round I believe or an APC but even then it'll not do to much damage to a mech... even the internals will be safe due to the lack of explosives the AP ammo has.

Nit pick the AP rounds that this gun used had a 7.8kg HE charge, also note Most WW2 era AP rounds actualy had a small HE charge to help damager the tank (bursting after it penitrated the armor)

Quote

the 2 x 280 mm's are technically a poor AC 20 or an AC 10 that took to many crit slots. Due to the lower velocity and AP the BT designation of weapons list it as either an AC 10 or 20 that isn't that effective so to say... But lets pretend it can kinda be identical in damage to those weapons...

Their likely more like pore mans thumper artillery system

1 x 128 mm also fires AP and it is like an AC 5 in terms of damage designation.

Quote

8 x 20 mm flak is pretty much like BT machine guns kinda towards a battlemech... solid HE or HEIF or HE-T or what ever rounds... This will not damage mech armour but can damage internals if cored.



2 x 15 mm... this is a literal machine gun but it is not going to have any special crit chance due to not being HE ammo due to the small cal of the gun.

You could class them a B-tech MGs, though thats likely being quite generious, the two quad 20mms at best are likely equvlent to a single B-tech MG each

Quote

Let's point the fact the turret moves so slowly that an atlas can run circles around this tank without the tank able to fire on it due to it's slow turret turn time and slow turning abilities.

this is likely, though at what range this will hapen at I would not know

Quote

However in a certain situation the Ratte could possibly kill an atlas. But the thing is WWII vehicles had to guess, fire, and then adjust to hit things... the Atlas has a bloody targeting computer which can make a pilot land 100% of it's shots into a specific area of the tank. So it could be possible that without the atlas running circles around it the tank may have issues hitting the atlas due to the bullet drop and range issues. (I know the atlas is huge... but so are huge battleships and the ratte (well the main gun I mean which is on the battleships germany had.. ) also missed there targets a lot... Not to mention there is no training for people to know how big an atlas is and thus have no idea if it is 3 km away or 1 km away. Also note if the atlas has dazel paint it'll be even harder to hit it...)

Well thats probably overstating the Atlas a bit, though B-tech dose use a wide spectrum ECM system (though what effect on a rather unsophisticated FC system that relies on human eyes and brain power than anything I would not know, it's radio on the other hand is likely toast). And yes they will have training on size estimation and ranging via that, though they will have little idea of exactly how big an atlas is, so their going to be off for a bit, also they will not have any real experience of how mobile an Atlas is (note it's technically faster than an M1 Abrams is when off road, at lest from it's official specs)

Note an M1 Abrams has a Road speed of 42mph (67kph), and a off road speed of 25-30mph (40-48kph), now their is the known fact that if they disabled the governor it can reach a road speed of 75mph (120kph), what the off road speed would be I do not know, but it's not built to go this fast so it's going to affect it's crew, and the fact that I have heard that accuracy drops notably at speeds above 20mph (32kph) any way.

Quote

Demolisher II:




2 UAC 20, 1 LBX 10, and a machine gun.

This thing can do anything a ratte can do and better...

Sorry but comparing modern day vehicles to a Battletech vehicle isn't the best way to get at it...

if it was a Mackie and a Ratte in a fight then my money is on the tank. But besides the early mechs and some light mechs I think the ratte will have problems...

In actuality the Demolisher II has 2x MGs, a UAC-20 and a LBX-20

[C E Dwyer]

I thought the ratte was supposed to have 15inch guns its essentially a bismark turret on tracks with a jagd tiger on each corner.

Ground pressure would have been huge, it would have probably sunk and been imobilised in anything but dry weather, typically with all later German designs it would have been cronically under powered and suffered from a weak clutch.

The shells if they should hit would do serious damage to am atlas as the tech in BT armour is to keep it effective but to reduce weight 3050 compouns plasteel is still governed by the same laws as contemporary compound armour plat and unlike modern armour Battle tech mech protection can be damaged by flame throwers as to actually remove it, as can machine guns where as 2015 armour would have to be subjected to hours of contact with a flame before it would even buckle.

The result would depend on the atlas pilot

If it was the average Pug noob in the seat he would either hide shut down in a corner or frontally attack it in broad daylight over flat ground and then scream Hack.


Anyone else would wait until night IR night fighting equipment was only at experimental stage in 1945 and very poor or attack in rough terrain go for the tracks once the tracks were destroyed it would be a simple case of getting in contact with it and then going in through the front glasis plate where no weapon can bare, not even the MG's at the corner if positioned correctly.

so as in most things its not the tech its the pilot