154 replies to this topic

[Inyc]

That awkward feeling when no one understands the OP even though his post is very simple and easy to understand.

[Sturmforge]

Inyc, on 20 May 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

That awkward feeling when no one understands the OP even though his post is very simple and easy to understand.

You sure? Sometimes i can explain things in a not so clear roundabout way and the title is a bit misleading.

Wasn't meant to really meant to be a medium mechs suck thread, as they are all I run except for a Cataphract sometimes.

[Sable Dove]

The game is 'balanced' (and I use that term very loosely) for no-efficiency mechs. It's why Assaults are easily the best class; mech efficiencies pretty much remove their one main drawback.

[aniviron]

Taemien, on 19 May 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

A fast medium has a niche. It can decimate lights as its quick enough to intercept them and quick enough to not let them get away. In addition it has has equal or more firepower and always more armor.

Not sure which lights you're playing against, but when I play anything 35tons I find and crush the mediums. Everything but the TBT-3C just can't keep up, even the wang, and the 3C has to make a lot of sacrifices to jam a 390xl in there. I think my RVN-2X (one of the worse mediums) is a pretty good comparison with my HBK-4SP. Both run 4mlas, the 4SP has 2srm6 with 2tons ammo, the 2X runs 1xsrm6 with 2tons. Their heat efficiencies are about the same. The HBK goes 90, the RVN does 130, and is quite a bit smaller and has better torso twist speed to boot. Sure, the hunchback has more armor, but it's also bigger, and for the most part it has one extra ppc hit per component over the RVN-2x. Given that it will take 2-3 hits to kill you in both mechs, I will take the one that is much much harder to hit any day.

[MustrumRidcully]

Deathlike, on 20 May 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

I took a bit of time to rethink this.. and tell me what you think of it.

If you think the Cent doesn't need to run @ 100kph max across the board (which means the A and AL variants), what would you say about adding 1 laser hardpoint to all Cents (including the YLW) in the RT? There are major implications of doing that, and would change the Cent's meta dramatically IMO.

I am not sure. It might help the Centurion g enerally, but will it make Mediums more competitive? Do you thin kthe Cent is the only mech with a problem?

Vassago Rain, on 20 May 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Knockdown isn't coming back.
They have no interest in reviving the stunlock mechanism.

Sybreed, on 20 May 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

it's coming back, just much much later than we all hoped.

Collisions are supposedly coming back. That doesn't have to mean knockbacks. Collisions can just mean you take damage when you run into another mech.

It could still be they also bring knockbacks back, but then they'd better be prepared for stun lock complains.
I think the only spot where I would still "want" knockbacks is when it involves stuff like shutting down mid flight, and maybe death from above. The first is something you just should't do, the last is something that is non-trivial to do (and it could work both ways...)

And speaking of stunlocks - I am eager to see if the Flamer change will cause any problems. They seem to have at least avoided one pitfall (flamers don't heat up shut down mechs), but it remains to be seen if that will be sufficient.

Inyc, on 20 May 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

That awkward feeling when no one understands the OP even though his post is very simple and easy to understand.

It seemed to me the discussion simply moved on - I don't believe mech efficiencies are responsible for mediums being overlooked. It might fit if Light Mechs were overlooked for Medium Mechs, but the speed cap is still too high for that.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 21 May 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[Inflatable Fish]

Taemien, on 19 May 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

A fast medium has a niche. It can decimate lights as its quick enough to intercept them and quick enough to not let them get away. In addition it has has equal or more firepower and always more armor.

Show me ONE medium that can consistently beat a 3L in a fight.

[Thorqemada]

Vaktor, on 20 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

I pilot Cent's most of the time and even in the current system I know if I bring my Centi it means that I will have one other medium mech to deal with on the other team... Of course I will also have a bunch of Assualts and Heavies.

Weightclass matchmaking is no longer a priority in the ELO-Matchmaking-System.
They try do find similar ELO ratings and Weightclasses but the number of weightclass mismatching games has significantly increased.

Edited by Thorqemada, 21 May 2013 - 03:46 AM.

[Ph30nix]

Inflatable Fish, on 21 May 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

Show me ONE medium that can consistently beat a 3L in a fight.

i do constantly in my treb 7m but thats because i stay farther then 270 meters from them when i do it.

3l's are only that strong because of streaks, if streaks were balanced they wouldnt be nearly as dangerous, the Bap buff will help some but only for lights who carry streaks but dont have ECM.

[Thorqemada]

The OP is right, that the implementation of Mech-Efficiencies is a big Problem.

Why is that:
Bcs the percentage based formulas how they increase!

In a percentage based formula the absolut values of increase grow the higher the base value is.
That means a bigger engine gets an even bigger speedboost, an even bigger agility boost.
More Heatsinks give an even better Heat-Dissipation.

Rule of Thumb: The more you have the more you get!

This forces players to max out engines and put in DHS, not only is DHS more effecitve than SHS, the benefits are even bigger!

In CB with efficiencies that were around 2,5% (1/10 of our today values) it did pretty much not matter, but with efficiencies around 10, 15 and even >20% with These efficiencies DOUBLED when you get your Elite Skills its nothing than Balance breaking!

The Medium Class suffers the most bcs it is the middleground of Mechcombat.
Lights can get much higher Speed benefits and carry the same or even better usable weaponloads than Mediums with maxed engines.
Heavys almost as fast and agile than Mediums can carry much more Armor, a much better Weaponload, 2 have even JJs while most Hevy loadouts can cripple a Medium in 1 or 2 shots.
Assaults carry enough Armor and Firepower and with the increased chances to Hit you do not want to face them while you are to slow to really flank them and to big to sneak in a Medium.

I like to Pilot Cents and my current W/L is ~1,5 and the current K/L ~1,8 but i can do better in any other weightclass.
How significant Speed is can be seen that i did a Testrun with a Cicada and my W/L upped to 2,3.

PGI probably has tweaked the Speeds and anything lower than a 30kph gap is negligible.
The difference to a Heavy is ~10kph and to assaults between 10 to 30kph and a Highlander with JJs can simply jump over obstacles most Mediums have to move around so its almost impossible to get away.

This leaves you with a Situation were you become an Opportunist that depends on matchmaking luck and killstealing and weightclassmismatching and no Lights on the enemy side bcs a wolfpack of lights, even a duo will leg me in 3 seconds and kill me in 6 if they Play coordinated.

Currently, aside of being crippled by high Alpha builds in only 1 hit legging Mediums is the best way to take them out bcs the hitboxes are that easy to hit and you dont Need to take care of the direction its a no brainer.

Mediums in the current Meta have no role to fill that is not fulfilled better by a Mech from another weightclass!

PS: If you find typos These are brought to you by the automated "Spellcheck ™".

Edited by Thorqemada, 21 May 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

karoushi, on 19 May 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

My cent runs 100+ so I don't know what either of you are talking about here.

Until your sidetorso explodes, taking your whole engine with it...
I see what you did there

Cause, you know, hitting a side torso of a cent is a bit easier than hitting the side torso of a jenner/spider/raven/commando.
You run a STD engine?
Well... if you have all the upgrades(armor + structure + DHSs) that means you can bring either 3xSRM6 without artemis + 2 med. Lasers(which aint that bad) on the 9-A, or something with quite less firepower(which is quite bad) - I can hardly call that viable.

Anyways - we see less and less mediums just cause they can't suit their role now that good between all the poptarding and the PPC boating out there.
At least I think so - they became that unnecessary, broken I-WIN-BUTTON that only few people try to find reason to make it work(since the "game mechanics" "allow" a way, and I mean WAY more effective builds atm).
Not to mention that most of the meds are using missiles too

But all this is about to change a bit today, is it not?

[Satan n stuff]

Inflatable Fish, on 21 May 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

Show me ONE medium that can consistently beat a 3L in a fight.

You mean show me a medium with 2 missile hardpoints, 3 energy hardpoints and ECM? Those don't exist. Now show me any other light that can beat a 3L. Pointing to the single variant that is still blatantly OP doesn't make the other lights better.
There's only one Commando that even stands a chance against a Jenner, 3L or most Cicadas ( not the 3C ) . There are no Spiders that stand a chance against any of those, except against the Cicada 3C. By your logic, we should call all light mechs useless because nearly every other mech will wipe the floor with a spider. Now for a slightly more realistic argument:
The Cicada is tougher than any light mech, and has similar hardpoints to the Jenner. Comparing the Cicada to the most similar light mech the Jenner is smaller, but with good aim that doesn't matter because the Jenner's CT is just as easy to shoot as the Cicada's. The CT on the Cicada is extremely hard to hit when turned away from the enemy, while the CT on the jenner can always be hit either front or back because of it's big nose. Unless you're stupid enough to fight a Jenner on steep slopes where your torso lasers can't hit you should win.
The only advantage Jenners really have here is against snipers and players who can't aim, because they are less likely to get hit by ballistics and won't take as much damage from lasers fired by someone with bad aim. The fact that the Jenner has the option of jump jets doesn't help it much in combat because it's much easier to hit while airborne, and the supposed advantage of using jump jets to change direction suddenly is more or less fictional as any savvy player will know when you're trying to do this and adjust accordingly.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 21 May 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Chameleon Silk]

my hunchback is my most winniest mech with my highest kill/death ratio so I don't really know what your saying here at all, i agree they should still be a tad smaller but not faster.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ph30nix, on 21 May 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

i do constantly in my treb 7m but thats because i stay farther then 270 meters from them when i do it.

3l's are only that strong because of streaks, if streaks were balanced they wouldnt be nearly as dangerous, the Bap buff will help some but only for lights who carry streaks but dont have ECM.

So wait, Your mech, which goes a max of 115kph, is able to dictate where the fight takes place against a mech that goes 150kph?

What's your secret?

Do you have some kind of magic weapon that slows your target when you hit it?

You must be amazing if you can do that.

Jesus.

[Satan n stuff]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 May 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

So wait, Your mech, which goes a max of 115kph, is able to dictate where the fight takes place against a mech that goes 150kph?

What's your secret?

Do you have some kind of magic weapon that slows your target when you hit it?

You must be amazing if you can do that.

Jesus.

You would not be able to dictate where the fight takes place but you would be able to heavily damage the light mech before it gets out of range. People generally aren't omniscient so a light will probably run into you sooner or later if you avoid being identified as a light killer. If the light is distracted you will be able to get in range with it as it will likely fail to run away in time. Chasing it however is a very bad idea unless you know it's impossible for the rest of the enemy team to ambush you, and if your teammates need help you should probably support them instead.

[Deathlike]

MustrumRidcully, on 21 May 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

I am not sure. It might help the Centurion g enerally, but will it make Mediums more competitive? Do you thin kthe Cent is the only mech with a problem?

Well overall, probably not. I mean the biggest issue as far as I can tell are the hitboxes/model sizes, but we have yet to see PGI budge on adjusting them yet.. so I'd rather look into alternatives first since the effort to redo the model would require a bit of time.

I guess it kinda bothers me that a Hunchback should be faster. Consider any optimal Hunchback vs the classic Splatcat. In order for the Splatcat to be effective, it would have to be able to close the gap, so it has a tendency to use the faster engines (like 300 or better).. this is competitive enough to chase the slow Hunchback to a degree. In a sense, the engine cap is part of the problem. I've vouched for Hunchies to have the cap moved to 275, but that in turn infringes on the Centurion territory.. which is why the Cent engine cap would have to be increased to 300... It is noted that Hunchbacks tend to use the fastest engine available (and usually the non-XL variety), so the speed differences are kind of minimized.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 May 2013 - 06:59 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

***** n stuff, on 21 May 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

You would not be able to dictate where the fight takes place but you would be able to heavily damage the light mech before it gets out of range. People generally aren't omniscient so a light will probably run into you sooner or later if you avoid being identified as a light killer. If the light is distracted you will be able to get in range with it as it will likely fail to run away in time. Chasing it however is a very bad idea unless you know it's impossible for the rest of the enemy team to ambush you, and if your teammates need help you should probably support them instead.

That is all a bunch of conjecture, based on some random idea that the light is bad and you have more skill and more team support.

He said he keeps the fight outside of 270m, thus dicatating the terms of the fight.

I'm calling him out on a stupid assertion since he goes 35kph slower than the Raven. The Raven dictates the terms of the fight.

Period.

[Satan n stuff]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 May 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

That is all a bunch of conjecture, based on some random idea that the light is bad and you have more skill and more team support.

He said he keeps the fight outside of 270m, thus dicatating the terms of the fight.

I'm calling him out on a stupid assertion since he goes 35kph slower than the Raven. The Raven dictates the terms of the fight.

Period.

The Raven player probably isn't omniscient, and still has to see the enemy to know they're there. they will also very likely focus on light mechs first, unless they actually are stupid, likely giving the medium an opportunity to get in range.
Just because one mech is faster doesn't mean it can't end up in an unwinnable fight it has no choice but to retreat from, and even a good player can't always predict when that will happen.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

***** n stuff, on 21 May 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

The Raven player probably isn't omniscient, and still has to see the enemy to know they're there. they will also very likely focus on light mechs first, unless they actually are stupid, likely giving the medium an opportunity to get in range.
Just because one mech is faster doesn't mean it can't end up in an unwinnable fight it has no choice but to retreat from, and even a good player can't always predict when that will happen.

Ok...a Raven and a Treb get into a fight. Regardless of who gets the first shot off. Once the fight is started, who dictates where the fight takes place?

The mech moving 115kph, or the mech moving 150kph?

Stop adding silly requirements or special situational changes.

Just answer the question.

[MustrumRidcully]

Deathlike, on 21 May 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Well overall, probably not. I mean the biggest issue as far as I can tell are the hitboxes/model sizes, but we have yet to see PGI budge on adjusting them yet.. so I'd rather look into alternatives first since the effort to redo the model would require a bit of time.

I guess it kinda bothers me that a Hunchback should be faster. Consider any optimal Hunchback vs the classic Splatcat. In order for the Splatcat to be effective, it would have to be able to close the gap, so it has a tendency to use the faster engines (like 300 or better).. this is competitive enough to chase the slow Hunchback to a degree. In a sense, the engine cap is part of the problem. I've vouched for Hunchies to have the cap moved to 275, but that in turn infringes on the Centurion territory.. which is why the Cent engine cap would have to be increased to 300... It is noted that Hunchbacks tend to use the fastest engine available (and usually the non-XL variety), so the speed differences are kind of minimized.

ANd I dislike that the Hunchback needs to go faster to be competitive. It shouldn't need to. I am all for removing the engine caps entirely, but I also want the option to not use a high rated engine and still have a viable medium mech.

Maybe it must, maybe there is no other way to make it competitive. Maybe the whole idea of role warfare is fail, and only the extreme ends can survive. But that would sadden me, it wasn't the game I was promised. But of course, not all promises describe possible things...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 21 May 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MustrumRidcully, on 21 May 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

ANd I dislike that the Hunchback needs to go faster to be competitive. It shouldn't need to. I am all for removing the engine caps entirely, but I also want the option to not use a high rated engine and still have a viable medium mech.

Maybe it must, maybe there is no other way to make it competitive. Maybe the whole idea of role warfare is fail, and only the extreme ends can survive. But that would sadden me, it wasn't the game I was promised. But of course, not all promises describe possible things...

Well here is the thing. They had original set up all sorts of...pilot tree/skills/whatever you want to call it...to try and differentiate the different mech classes.

With that sort of style, you might be able to fix this.

With the CURRENT game style and rules. Mediums have no chances without going outside the norm.

Just making them a bit smaller does not fix it.