154 replies to this topic

[Sturmforge]

We can also look at this another way. 35 tonner versus 50 tonner at 113 kph.

35 tonner has 14.5 tons to use for weapons and armor without Speed Tweak, 16.5 tons with at 114.6 plus you have to add a heat sink to the chassis for 15.5 tons to use.

50 tonner has 8.5 tons to use for weapons and armor without Speed Tweak, 16.5 tons with at 112.3.

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Khanublikhan]

Premise:

Medium mechs need to be speedy enough / tough enough / versatile enough, to be able to withdraw to the nearest cover.

• Make speed tweak doubly effective for all mediums - making them the true workhorse (light cavalry) of the mech battlefield.
  
• Introduce smoke dispenser consumables. Give mediums +1 smoke dispenser slot for free.

This would turn medium mechs into their equivalent light / medium real-world tank equivalent. Able to advance & withdraw under smoke cover.

[Deathlike]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

I think it is somewhat because it becomes a sort of weight reduction such as Endo, Ferro, or XL engine but with no downside. Look at your Awesome for example. How much weight do you gain if you decide to drop your engine to stay at 60 kph instead of just boosting current engine to 66kph with the tweak? You gain 4.5 tons though you lose the ability to place 2 heat sinks in the engine. The lose of engine heat sinks is not true with all engine reductions like that though.

For a medium, you have to recognize the tonnage that is committed to the engine...

A Centurion commonly carries a 275 STD (21.5 tons)... the tonnage would be the exact equivalent of a 345XL (which is pretty good for a Cent-D @ 111.8kph w/o speed tweak). If we use the very common Awesome's 300 STD engine (25 tons), the tonnage would be close enough to an equivalent of the 370XL if you can spare another half ton (74.9kph w/o speed tweak).

Just providing an engine speed increase would improve both Cents (and mediums and general) and could somewhat reasonably revitalize the entire Awesome class (instead of it being strictly beneficial to the 9M/PB). This cannot be understated.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 May 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[Sturmforge]

Khanublikhan, on 19 May 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Premise:

Medium mechs need to be speedy enough / tough enough / versatile enough, to be able to withdraw to the nearest cover.

• Make speed tweak doubly effective for all mediums - making them the true workhorse (light cavalry) of the mech battlefield.
  
• Introduce smoke dispenser consumables. Give mediums +1 smoke dispenser slot for free.

This would turn medium mechs into their equivalent light / medium real-world tank equivalent. Able to advance & withdraw under smoke cover.

Will not work as Mediums will replace lights.

[OneEyed Jack]

Deathlike, on 19 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Speed Tweak is not the problem... it's engine limits for mediums on the whole (minus the Cicada) is the problem.

On average (give or take 1 kph) the speed of the various classes look like this:
Assaults - 60kph (66kph w/tweak) - exception being the 9M/PB
Heavies - 78kph (85.8kph w/tweak) - exception being the Dragon (honorary medium)
Mediums - ~89kph (97.9kph w/tweak) - exception being the Cicada (honorary light), and 2 speed medium variants (Cent-D/Trebuchet-3C) - difficult to compare all 3 meds
Lights - 135+kph (148.kph w/tweak) - exception being the Raven-2X/4X

Although class speed is impossible to compare directly, you would think there should be a bigger gap between mediums and heavies... where it should be closer to 100kph than it is to 90kph. Speed tweak is really not the problem.

Um... my TBT-7M goes 115kph.

In fact, out of 4 Medium chassis, 2 entire chassis and a variant of a third typically top 100kph by a wide margin. That doesn't even resemble a speed issue for the entire weight class.

[Sturmforge]

Deathlike, on 19 May 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

For a medium, you have to recognize the tonnage that is committed to the engine...

A Centurion commonly carries a 275 STD (21.5 tons)... the tonnage would be the exact equivalent of a 345XL (which is pretty good for a Cent-D @ 111.8kph w/o speed tweak). If we use the very common Awesome's 300 STD engine (25 tons), the tonnage would be close enough to an equivalent of the 370XL if you can spare another half ton.

Just providing an engine speed increase would improve both Cents (and mediums and general) and could somewhat reasonably revitalize the entire Awesome class (instead of it being strictly beneficial to the 9M/PB). This cannot go understated.

I am doing this with just standard engines as XLs have their own benefits and penalties. Being that you can match speeds of the lighter class while being easier to kill.

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Khanublikhan, on 19 May 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

• Make speed tweak doubly effective for all mediums - making them the true workhorse (light cavalry) of the mech battlefield.

Workhorses do things more like pulling plows than carrying cavalry. As a description, it refers to doing a job, day in day out, dependably. It doesn't refer to doing anything particularly well.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Cent D's with their max engine have no bite and are HUGE. Better off bringing a Jenner. Same for all Cicada vs. Jenner. Same for the fast Treb variant vs. Jenner.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 19 May 2013 - 01:55 PM.

[Deathlike]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 May 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Um... my TBT-7M goes 115kph.

In fact, out of 4 Medium chassis, 2 entire chassis and a variant of a third typically top 100kph by a wide margin. That doesn't even resemble a speed issue for the entire weight class.

The bucket is the fastest of the 50 ton bracket, and if they go fast, they use XL. The Cent-D is the only equivalent to the Trebuchet-3C, but the bucket has a more usable hardpoints than the Cent-D (you plan to put MGs on the Centurion?). If you call that even, I don't know what to tell you.

[Sturmforge]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 May 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Cent D's with their max engine have no bite and are HUGE. Better off bringing a Jenner. Same for all Cicada vs. Jenner. Same for the fast Treb variant vs. Jenner.

When comparing mediums to lights yes size is a factor. When you go from heavy to medium though it is not a big difference.

[Vassago Rain]

Stokes52, on 19 May 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Medium mechs are the jack-of-all trade mechs. They are good in almost all situations but excel at none of them. I think this is fine. Personally, mediums are my favorite to pilot.

They aren't quite as fast as lights, but they have have more armor and firepower. On the other hand, they have nowhere near as much firepower and armor as an assault, but they have much more speed and maneuverability. The advantage of the medium is that it can quickly move to different areas of the battlefield, which means that a fast medium is a force multiplier. It can quickly get to a weak flank and support any assaults that are camping a portion of the battlefield while the rest of the lance catches up.

I think I'd be okay with some medium mechs being made slightly smaller, but on the whole, they serve their role perfectly fine. It's not uncommon for myself and many other medium pilots to top the scoreboards on occasion.

They're terrible in every situation, because they can't carry enough guns, or move fast enough. They're also way too big.

[Sturmforge]

You also have to factor that as we go into the Clan Invasion and move forward in years a lost of chassis's that may be added in average increase in speed so higher speed caps all around for them. Very few 60 kph mediums anymore, plus many more 80 kph heavies.

[Nipsnaps]

Right... to the original issue, no. That's not how percentages work ... 110% of A and B does not change their relative values at all, they are still A n B, just 1.1A and 1.1B. The niches for mediums are:

Std engine (kinda forced on Hunch, and so awesome with the Cent it is very very very good idea)
Cicada 120.3-129.2kph at 17.5-14.5 tons of payload
Bjack 108.9-118.8kph at 21.3-17.8 tons of payload (if engine ratings allow it)
50tonners 96.2-106.9kph at 27-22.5 tons of payload (Hunchback is so out of luck, sorry)

With XL engine (doable with Trashbucket and Cicada, suicide on Hunch, on Cents well it can be made to work a bit)
Cicada 142.6-147kph at 19.5-18.5 tons of payload
Bjack 128.7-140.6kph at 23.8-19.8 tons of payload (again if engine ratings allow it)
50tonners 108.7-128.3kph at 30.5-24 tons of payload (again, Hunchie is SOL)
HOWEVER Dragon can pull 106.9kph at 33.5 tons of payload with XL, so going low speed XL on the 50tonners is realllllllly not a good idea.

As Dragon ain't bad with an XL, you pretty much have to push the boundary if you go medium n XL, meaning Cicadas or the fast Trench/Cents. Ofcourse Hunchback variants tend to lose such a huge amount of their weaponry to losing the side torso, one could argue that just dying then isn't THAT big a loss. =P

But the mediums do have their place in the payload/kph spectrum. Cents are huge but damn can they take a beating with a STD engine. Other's I have only played against not with, so can't say bout them that much except the above notes.

edit: with endosteel and speed tweak taken into account, as those are near ubiquitous.

Edited by Nipsnaps, 19 May 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Butane9000]

BALANCE SUGGESTION

Speed tweak

Lights - 20% increase (decrease stock engine speeds to balance)

Mediums - 15% increase (+5% increase)

Heavies - 7.5% increase (2.5% decrease)

Assaults - 5% increase (5% decrease)

HAHA!

[Khanublikhan]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 May 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Workhorses do things more like pulling plows than carrying cavalry. As a description, it refers to doing a job, day in day out, dependably. It doesn't refer to doing anything particularly well.

A workhorse, by definition, does work well? By virtue of good stamina?

[OneEyed Jack]

Deathlike, on 19 May 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

The bucket is the fastest of the 50 ton bracket, and if they go fast, they use XL. The Cent-D is the only equivalent to the Trebuchet-3C, but the bucket has a more usable hardpoints than the Cent-D (you plan to put MGs on the Centurion?). If you call that even, I don't know what to tell you.

What the hell does any of that have to do with anything I said?

[Sturmforge]

Light hunter medium mech come BAP ECM counter patch.

TBT-7M

112 kph w/Speed Tweak
Better armor than a light
3 Medium Lasers
3 SSRM
BAP

No XL engine needed thanks to Speed Tweak.

[Deathlike]

Butane9000, on 19 May 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

BALANCE SUGGESTION

Speed tweak

Lights - 20% increase (decrease stock engine speeds to balance)

Let's welcome the return of the 3 second Jenner while you're at it.

[Taemien]

Vassago Rain, on 19 May 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Except lights carry equivalent or more firepower to mediums, and are faster. Many heavies are as fast as mediums, with way way more firepower, too.

You effectively told me the color of the sky. If you're going to agree or disagree at least make it clear and explain yourself.

Sorry but a 120kph medium is going to destroy the light mech. The difference is a 100pts of armor. Similar speeds (15kph difference at those higher speeds isn't going to make a difference).

As for heavier mechs, again, you're just repeating what I said in one sentence.

[Deathlike]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 May 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

What the hell does any of that have to do with anything I said?

The slower mediums simply do not help distinguish the medium mechs as a whole. Every medium should have an opportunity to go @ almost 100kph unless it is more powerful than the rest (which happen to be Hunchbacks). The current system in MWO simply isn't allowing for it, so their "intended role" is never really achieved. I don't see how a Cent-A or Cent-AL suddenly become OP if we loosen their engine restrictions a bit.. and the same could be said for the Hunchbacks (it's not like the swayback will return). If we solely judge mediums as OK because of the Cicada and Trebuchet being able to achieve the speeds a medium should have, then I guess everything is "working as intended".

The only thing I'm looking for is a simple engine speed buff for Hunchies to be buffed to 275 (where the "slow" Centurions are currently slotted) and Centurions to have their engine buffed to 300 (so it's not exclusive to the YLW). Neither buff will make the mediums suddenly become OP, but they would at least be reasonably more agile than they currently are.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 May 2013 - 02:36 PM.