154 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

You also have to factor that as we go into the Clan Invasion and move forward in years a lost of chassis's that may be added in average increase in speed so higher speed caps all around for them. Very few 60 kph mediums anymore, plus many more 80 kph heavies.

This is exactly what you all said before we got the cicada. It didn't solve anything.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

What weapon load would a 300 std Cent carry though?

Still too big, still too slow and the same bite as a Jenner.

Doesn't fix a thing.

[Taemien]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 May 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

What weapon load would a 300 std Cent carry though?

Still too big, still too slow and the same bite as a Jenner.

Doesn't fix a thing.

What weapon load would a 200 std Cent carry though?

Still too big, still too slow and the same bite as a Jenner.

Doesn't fix a thing.



What weapon load would a 100 std Cent carry though?

Still too big, still too slow and the same bite as a Jenner.

Doesn't fix a thing.



What weapon load would a 500 XL* Cent carry though?

Still too big, still too slow and less bite than a Jenner.

Doesn't fix a thing.



What fixes are you suggesting? I made suggestions, but no one discussed them, so lets hear everyone else's. If you don't have a solution, you don't have a problem, which means there's no point to the thread.

*405+ engine ratings exist, in advanced rules, just using it as a point.

[Jack Avery]

Letting the mediums put even larger engines in isn't going to fix a damn thing. As others have pointed out, you just won't have enough tonnage left with the hardpoints available on many of them to have any punch at all.

Perhaps the problem isn't the mediums, but the heavies and assaults. They don't need to be as fast as they are. Tighten their engine restrictions up.

[Asmudius Heng]

They need to be smaller, they are hugely oversized in height and volume.

They need to be slightly more agile.

We need some sort of system that recognises that tonnage actually matters, and also that not everyone should be allowed to take the bigger mechs without the ridiculous fun sapping R&R.

Also my pet peeve. All this talk about giving bigger engine sizes. If engine size and speed are the ONLY thing to define the success of a mech this is broken. I should be able to take a smaller engine and suffer the speed penalty but the extra tonnage should allow me something just as good in firepower or heat dissipation or armour etc. There is currently no point in ever gong DOWN in engine because speed is not the only factor but agility is also massively boosted in bigger engines.

Imagine if your jenner had to slow down to make that tight turn because its engine didnt grant much better turning rates? Suddenly engine size is good for speed but not for agility making it an optional upgrade not a no brainer upgrade.

"But Asmu!! Then my light mech would suck! and so would most of my other mechs they would be soooo clunky!!"

Yes they would. As a giant walking clunky warmachine should be and everyone else would be under the same constraints. Then quirks for mechs on agility would mean MORE because you cannot just boost your engine.

This would actually make lights and mediums worse in some ways and I think that is a good thing because then the developers would have to realise tonnage matters and implement some system to regulate this. If your medium mech was taken not because it was awesomesauce, but because it was efficient in comparison to heavies then that would be a reason in a team game to take it.

R&R tried to do this and failed - but without R&R many mechs become obsolete.

[Sturmforge]

Vassago Rain, on 19 May 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

This is exactly what you all said before we got the cicada. It didn't solve anything.

Huh? The Cicada is a low end medium that doubles for a light. Same as the Dragon, a low end heavy that can work as a medium. Same as the Awesome which can...

This thread is not about bigger engines. It is about Speed Tweak working like an XL engine without any penalties.

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Belorion]

I stopped reading at speed tweak. The reason Mediums get over looked is due to the mistaken belief that bigger is better. Mediums perform fine, and can often top the charts.

Mediums are still faster than mediums with speed tweak so its a non issue.

[Sturmforge]

Belorion, on 19 May 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

I stopped reading at speed tweak. The reason Mediums get over looked is due to the mistaken belief that bigger is better. Mediums perform fine, and can often top the charts.

Mediums are still faster than mediums with speed tweak so its a non issue.

So you post not even knowing what the thread is about? Gotta love the internet.

[Tincan Nightmare]

One problem for medium viability is that all variants available (except possible the Cicada) suffer horribly if using an XL. Since the hunch is the first thing most players shoot at on a Hunchback, putting an XL in is tantamount to suicide, and the Cent isn't much better since it most often runs around as a torsoless zombie. Compare that to the Cata or Dragon, whos much smaller side torso hit boxes makes it easier to mount XL's, and its no wonder medium suffer in comparison. Heck even assaults, with there much higher armor and internals can mount XL's better than mediums since it takes longer to destroy their torso locations, and the mediums have almost the same target silhouette size.

[shabowie]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

We can also look at this another way. 35 tonner versus 50 tonner at 113 kph.

35 tonner has 14.5 tons to use for weapons and armor without Speed Tweak, 16.5 tons with at 114.6 plus you have to add a heat sink to the chassis for 15.5 tons to use.

50 tonner has 8.5 tons to use for weapons and armor without Speed Tweak, 16.5 tons with at 112.3.

We can also look at it yet another way. Any light going 113 is going to get completely decimated as that just isn't fast enough to make them hard to hit. Now consider a medium going the same size with double or triple the profile and not enough extra armor to matter.

That's why mediums aren't very good.

[Sturmforge]

shabowie, on 19 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

We can also look at it yet another way. Any light going 113 is going to get completely decimated as that just isn't fast enough to make them hard to hit. Now consider a medium going the same size with double or triple the profile and not enough extra armor to matter.

That's why mediums aren't very good.

That medium is bigger yes, but what happens when a heavy does the same thing in comparison to a medium?

[shabowie]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

That medium is bigger yes, but what happens when a heavy does the same thing in comparison to a medium?

They have even more armor and weapons and heatsinks and the increase in profile size seems pretty insignificant from medium to heavy. Unless you are strictly talking about at 113 kph, which doesn't seem like a really useful speed for a medium or a heavy to go. At between 70-90 is where most of the mediums and heavies are ending up and in that range Heavies are just flat out better right now.

A canon example of an 80 ton mech trying to go fast is the Charger it has a 400 engine and I don't think it goes that fast. I don't even think its possible for a Heavy to get up to 113.

Edited by shabowie, 19 May 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[Sturmforge]

shabowie, on 19 May 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

They have even more armor and weapons and heatsinks and the increase in profile size seems pretty insignificant from medium to heavy.

Exactly.

Also that medium gains 8 tons to play with without really paying for anything, like an XL or Light engine. When comparing it to a light. That heavy gets 4-5 tons. That is what I am really trying to come across with Speed Tweak.

With a standard engine a 50 ton Medium would only get 1.5 tons to use at 119 kph. With Speed Tweak you now have 12.5 tons to use for the same speed.

For a 70 ton heavy. 78 kph gives you 29 tons to use, with Speed Tweak 35.5 tons.

Working like a form of Endo, Ferro, or XL engine.

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[Screech]

Ever notice hoe any thread such as this never mentions the Cicada. Oh yeah that's because it is basically as fast as any light so most consider it as a light. Increasing speed on mediums is just trying to make them the new baseline light. After we make this change why not just make heavies go faster. I won't tell you what phase 3 then will be maybe you can guess.

[shabowie]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Exactly.

Not sure what you mean by exactly. The wheels fell off your point when you were using numbers that a heavy can't even achieve.

In most cases all speed tweak does is allow the chassis to attain the speed the mech was supposed to be capable of going in canon.

[Deathlike]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

So you post not even knowing what the thread is about? Gotta love the internet.

Do you seriously want your points broken point by point?

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Honestly I think part of the problem is Speed Tweak. It throws off the balance of the construction system. Lets use 80 kph as the base. Higher than 60 tons if a mech wanted to go that fast it would have less weight than the 60 ton mech for armor and weapons because of the weight of the engine, except in the case of the XL Engine, but that has its own penalties. Speed Tweak lets you bypass that and have a faster heavy mech that competes with mediums.

Speed tweak accentuates mechs that have high top speeds. The reality is that it if you are a light mech, you stand to gain the most from it. Mediums would be next in line.. and so on and so forth. However, the engine cap is LIMITING the potential top speed of Mediums, it simply won't scale at the same rate.

Quote

Lets look at the Centurion and the Cataphract. With a 250 Engine a Centurion has 26.5 tons for weapons and armor for 81 kph. Not possible in the current game but a Cataphract would need a 350 Engine to match that giving it 27 tons for weapons and armor. Only half a ton more for a 20 ton heavier mech.

Most Cataphracts don't run close to the max engine possible.. even the classic poptart. Most Centurions and Hunchbacks do however, for different reasons.

Quote

Now with Speed Tweak I can drop engine size to go just as fast. 230 Engine + 1 Required Heat Sink in the Centurion gives me 28.5 tons to play with at 82 kph. The Cataphract by comparison with a 320 Engine gives 33.5 tons for 81.5 kph, or a 325 Engine gives 32.5 tons for 82.7 kph.

With respect to the DHS rules for internal and external engines, this is pretty bad. It is almost always recommended that if you can use a 250 engine and happen to run something hot (and are not a Commando), you are doing yourself a grave disservice .

Quote

Speed Tweak allows that heavier mech to be even more efficient than it should be throwing off the balance. From only having a .5 ton advantage with somewhat more Internal Structure to a 4 to 5 ton difference.

We can also look at this another way. 35 tonner versus 50 tonner at 113 kph.

35 tonner has 14.5 tons to use for weapons and armor without Speed Tweak, 16.5 tons with at 114.6 plus you have to add a heat sink to the chassis for 15.5 tons to use.

50 tonner has 8.5 tons to use for weapons and armor without Speed Tweak, 16.5 tons with at 112.3.

The Centurion-D tends to run radically different than the Centurion-A for obvious reasons. I run a 370XL on the Cent-D and for me, I've had some decent success over the Cent-A. The Cent-A has the most bang, but it's really dependent on the SRMs to do most of the work. I really run the Cent-D primarily like a light, but it's not meant to be one. It's good enough to take on a light one a 1v1, but even if it's not optimal, it's more useful to discourage light mechs with. SRMs are still the primary force of damage, but it's not the focal point..

Speed tweak under faster mediums would actually improve the problem as currently described, so meh.

Edit:
If the Cent engine speed was increased to 300, instead of the current meta's common Cent (using 2Med+3SRM6 w/275 STD), it would probably shift towards a 2Med+3SRM4 w/300 STD engine (although, I wonder when they'll ever correctly do missile tube counting).

Edited by Deathlike, 19 May 2013 - 04:57 PM.

[oldradagast]

The size of most mediums is what baffles me. I don't understand why the Centurion and "trenchbucket" are about the same size as mechs 15 to 20 tons heavier. It doesn't make much sense - are they made of less dense materials? - and means that they are about as easy to hit as the heavy mechs... and they move about as fast, and yet have around 100 points less armor and less weapons. So, they end up being used very infrequently. The Hunchback is closer to the right size, and some models can pack a punch, though they still don't have enough value to really make them worth taking in most games (substitute a Cataphract with a similar payload and you're probably better off.) The Cicada is the exception, but only because it's basically a light mech in the medium slot. It moves fast enough to be harder to hit and isn't grossly oversized (at least not as much as the other mediums.)

If they scaled the medium mechs properly, they would be harder to hit, which would help a bit and look better. Other than that, I'm not sure unless they create some way to make sure all weight classes are represented in a match, but that might not prevent the mediums from doing nothing even if they are present in all matches.

[Vassago Rain]

oldradagast, on 19 May 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

The size of most mediums is what baffles me. I don't understand why the Centurion and "trenchbucket" are about the same size as mechs 15 to 20 tons heavier. It doesn't make much sense - are they made of less dense materials? - and means that they are about as easy to hit as the heavy mechs... and they move about as fast, and yet have around 100 points less armor and less weapons. So, they end up being used very infrequently. The Hunchback is closer to the right size, and some models can pack a punch, though they still don't have enough value to really make them worth taking in most games (substitute a Cataphract with a similar payload and you're probably better off.) The Cicada is the exception, but only because it's basically a light mech in the medium slot. It moves fast enough to be harder to hit and isn't grossly oversized (at least not as much as the other mediums.)

If they scaled the medium mechs properly, they would be harder to hit, which would help a bit and look better. Other than that, I'm not sure unless they create some way to make sure all weight classes are represented in a match, but that might not prevent the mediums from doing nothing even if they are present in all matches.

Artistic vision. Who knows?

The hunchback, the first medium, is about right. Coincidentally, it's also the most useful, because it relies on lasers. If the blackjack isn't super huge, it might be viable.

[Sturmforge]

shabowie, on 19 May 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Not sure what you mean by exactly. The wheels fell off your point when you were using numbers that a heavy can't even achieve.

In most cases all speed tweak does is allow the chassis to attain the speed the mech was supposed to be capable of going in canon.

Was agreeing with you.

It allows you to reach the speed allowed in canon without making you pay for the extra tonnage of a bigger engine. Normally you would need to compromise somewhere. With that skill you don't. What if speed tweak allowed you to put in a bigger engine? Honestly I think that would be better.

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 05:14 PM.

[Sturmforge]

Deathlike, on 19 May 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

With respect to the DHS rules for internal and external engines, this is pretty bad. It is almost always recommended that if you can use a 250 engine and happen to run something hot (and are not a Commando), you are doing yourself a grave disservice .

Actually I run a Cent AL with a 230 quite well at 82kph w/Speed Tweak. Wouldn't go any slower though. Same heat management as running the 250 without Speed Tweak. Pretty much what I was getting at is I use it as a form of weight reduction without really any penalties. Like I used Ferro only adding 3 crits for the out of engine heat sink and got 2 extra tons to play with. (not including the out of engine heat sink that I added)

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 05:33 PM.