60 replies to this topic

[armyof1]

hammerreborn, on 20 May 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

I'm not sure how one can write the first sentence and then completely turn around and write that second sentence. It boggles the mind.

Why not, MM can be bad in lots of ways, not only in distributing premades evenly. Often failing in making decent weightclass distribution despite quickly setting up matches for one thing.

[hammerreborn]

armyof1, on 20 May 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

Why not, MM can be bad in lots of ways, not only in distributing premades evenly. Often failing in making decent weightclass distribution despite quickly setting up matches for one thing.

He argues that you can't prove people are sync dropping to argue that sync dropping isn't that prevalant. Then he immediately states that MM is broken, without any proof.

You can have your own opinions, you cannot have your own facts. He has none of the latter.

[Hotthedd]

hammerreborn, on 20 May 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

I'm not sure how one can write the first sentence and then completely turn around and write that second sentence. It boggles the mind.

You can't? Really? So you believe that not being able to prove that sync-dropping happens proves that the matchmaker is doing a good job? It isn't as if the two are mutually exclusive.

[hammerreborn]

Hotthedd, on 20 May 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

You can't? Really? So you believe that not being able to prove that sync-dropping happens proves that the matchmaker is doing a good job? It isn't as if the two are mutually exclusive.

If you are going to argue A needs proof to prove A, you can't also argue B without proof of B or you're just talking out of your *** like person A.

Edited by hammerreborn, 20 May 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Since Elo, attempting sync drops will likely do nothing statistically for your W/L, unless one side is throwing games when the sync results in opposite teams.

And if they do that, their Elo would suffer and the syncs would start to fail even more.

Go try to sync some matches if you think it's some magic I WIN button lol.

Prior to Elo, it wasn't that hard to get at least a 60% success on the same team sync, so you could definitely skew the numbers then.

Edited by Ghogiel, 20 May 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Ghogiel, on 20 May 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

Since Elo, attempting sync drops will likely do nothing statistically for your W/L, unless one side is throwing games when the sync results in opposite teams.

And if they do that, their Elo would suffer and the syncs would start to fail even more.

Go try to sync some matches if you think it's some magic I WIN button lol.

Prior to Elo, it wasn't that hard to get at least a 60% success on the same team sync, so you could definitely skew the numbers then.

Not to mention sync dropping typically puts you on opposing teams since they are getting pulled to match your teams Elo score.

[Joseph Mallan]

hammerreborn, on 20 May 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

If you are going to argue A needs proof to prove A, you can't also argue B without proof of B or you're just talking out of your *** like person A.

You can see a 300 ton MM imbalance, you may not see Team A has a 6man team... That is the difference.

[Hotthedd]

hammerreborn, on 20 May 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

If you are going to argue A needs proof to prove A, you can't also argue B without proof of B or you're just talking out of your *** like person A.

Conversely, If YOU are going to argue A is true unless proven false, you cannot argue B is false without being proven true. Which it seems that you are doing.

[Stoicblitzer]

hammerreborn, on 20 May 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

He argues that you can't prove people are sync dropping to argue that sync dropping isn't that prevalant. Then he immediately states that MM is broken, without any proof.

You can have your own opinions, you cannot have your own facts. He has none of the latter.

lol I see what you mean. I stated that sync dropping can't be proven by us which is a fact. Then I stated an opinion that I don't believe sync dropping is common. I stated the MM is garbage which is also an opinion based on anecdotal evidence. I didn't say it was broken. It's working as intended™ in the truest sense of the phrase. The weight imbalances are "within 5% tolerance" or whatever ******** they said in that command chair post. So when I see 6 assaults on enemy team and 2 on my team then I know that it's working as intended™.

[hammerreborn]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

You can see a 300 ton MM imbalance, you may not see Team A has a 6man team... That is the difference.

Prior to the most recent MM change, in 150 recorded matches, only 8 were above 100 tons, with the maxium being 135 ton difference between the teams. Most notably though, is that in each of those 100+ ton games, the heavy team lost. I refuse to believe that a 300 ton MM imbalance exists outside of 8v8s, which is an entirely different ruleset. So no, you don't see a 300 ton MM imbalance either.

See, facts and data, I has them, the average difference in teams overall was 28.9 tons with the heavier team winning rougly 51.5% of the time

It should also be noted that 0 ton difference games were more prevalant than 100+ games.
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Edited by hammerreborn, 20 May 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Stoicblitzer, on 20 May 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

I stated that sync dropping can't be proven by us which is a fact. Then I stated an opinion that I don't believe sync dropping is common.

Even if it was common it wouldn't even matter, unless someone is throwing matches, and in that case it's all kinds of ****** up to think about logistically and I am skeptical it would be even a viable method to skew Elo/stats for one of the 2 teams.

[Syllogy]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Tuesday nigh Marik drops still happening?

Monday Nights Marik Madness is still on the NGNG Teamspeak channel.

Teamspeak Tuesday is the next biggest night, also on the NGNG Teamspeak channel.

Lots of places to find friends.

[Screech]

They should just put 8 mans back into the general queue as whatever they had hoped for by splitting them out has failed. The games population can't support a solo queue so this is the second best option at this point.

[Syllogy]

All of this will change when 12v12 comes in anyway.

[Squirtbox]

I wont lie. I've done sync drops and been successful recently. Most of the time we are trying to play against each other since there is no private match option currently. Though we did have an inadvertent 8man sync earlier this evening. Our two 4mans simply dropped and ended up on the same team without realizing we had synced.

If the 8man que didn't suck balls most of the time it wouldn't be so bad. As it was tonight we played the same team 4 times in a row before failing 5 times to find a match after they got tired of losing horribly.

[Hotthedd]

Screech, on 20 May 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

They should just put 8 mans back into the general queue as whatever they had hoped for by splitting them out has failed. The games population can't support a solo queue so this is the second best option at this point.

I think this would be the biggest mistake PGI could make if they desire to keep new players, or players who prefer to drop solo.

The problem I see in the 8-man queue is this: PGI has focused so hard on dumbing down the game that many of the hard-core MW fans have either left or taken long breaks. Unfortunately, these are the same players that made up the majority of 8 man teams. The newly attracted players (who prefer easy FPS games) quickly discover that 8 man drops vs other 8 man groups is much more difficult, and therefore do not play 8 man groups.

[Screech]

Hotthedd, on 20 May 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

I think this would be the biggest mistake PGI could make if they desire to keep new players, or players who prefer to drop solo.

Admittedly you probably are right. It is more of a sink or swim proposal. But in my defense this is my plan B. I would rather have a solo queue and a 2-8 queue but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.

So what would happen if 8 mans were brought back now? I think for certain there would be an enormous increase in the numbers of 8 man groups. I consider this a positive. Most would then argue that this would lead to an increase of 8-0 stomps, but would it?

With Elo in place how could a full 8 man group be placed against a true pug? A lot of the current gripe with Elo is that it will take 4 good players and match them with 4 bad players and get to even. If you are dropping in pre-mades mostly you will have an elevated Elo score, and if everyone the group is above average you really can only get matched against the same, another 8 man.

I am sure there are a bunch of holes in the theory but I just dislike the current situation.

[Hotthedd]

Screech, on 20 May 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Admittedly you probably are right. It is more of a sink or swim proposal. But in my defense this is my plan B. I would rather have a solo queue and a 2-8 queue but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.

So what would happen if 8 mans were brought back now? I think for certain there would be an enormous increase in the numbers of 8 man groups. I consider this a positive. Most would then argue that this would lead to an increase of 8-0 stomps, but would it?

With Elo in place how could a full 8 man group be placed against a true pug? A lot of the current gripe with Elo is that it will take 4 good players and match them with 4 bad players and get to even. If you are dropping in pre-mades mostly you will have an elevated Elo score, and if everyone the group is above average you really can only get matched against the same, another 8 man.

I am sure there are a bunch of holes in the theory but I just dislike the current situation.

I understand, but the thing is: you only fail to find a match when there is no other team left in your queue after being paired off. Elo tries to keep the same levels together, but if the only other team waiting at the same time is in a different bracket, then you will play them. (ever notice that sometimes you drop right away while other times you seem to stare at the "searching" icon for 5 minutes? That is Elo trying to find the optimal matchup. The longer it takes, the less likely an even matchup.

[buttmonkey]

just to calrify i dont believe sync dropping is the main problem. what im saying is an 8man group HAS to queue seperately. so to allow 4mans to drop in with pugs allows for the POSSIBILTY of sync dropping however low the odds of a successful sync drop, which is counter intuitive seeing as 8mans have to queue alone.

it would not be hard to do exactly the same with 4 man groups having them queue in their own queue eliminating any chance of sync dropping. also eliminating any chance of 2 seperate 4 man groups dropping in on a group of unsuspecting pugs.

a queue for single players only would imo make the experience a great deal more enjoyable for new players

[jeffsw6]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 May 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Funny I never had a problem losing to a better team than I was on. didn't matter if they were a 4 man, 8 man, 2 man or PUG.

Just saying one should learn to lose with dignity.

I have a gripe when I'm playing against an 8-man, and my team is half or more randoms. I played against the same 8-man group four times this morning in PUG matches. Yes, they were sync dropping. Yes, the PGI folks have stated it is "exploiting." However they don't seem to be doing much about it.

I'm not saying these players should be sanctioned but that the match-maker should be smart enough to avoid it.

I imagine part of the reason this happens is you can't get an 8-man game most of the time. There are not enough 8-mans. I guess that will change once the new UI comes out and, hopefully, makes it easier to talk to other players and form a group.