324 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

My reaction.

[Halconnen]

I don´t think Mechs are good at showing reaction faces...

[Novakaine]

"Jumpin jelly beans I missed again?"
"Die poptarter!" The sound of LRM firing.
"Aw man this ain't gonna be good"

[Flyby215]

Yay!!

Possible prediction: since poptarters and PPC boats are so successful, these guys probably have an Elo higher than where they should be. After the upcming patch, do you think we'll see a lot of complaining about people who claim to be good suddenly having wicked loss streaks?

(personally I think it serves them right, reminiscent of when Elo was first activated and pug-stompers got a dose of reality)

[Vassago Rain]

Flyby215, on 20 May 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Yay!!

Possible prediction: since poptarters and PPC boats are so successful, these guys probably have an Elo higher than where they should be. After the upcming patch, do you think we'll see a lot of complaining about people who claim to be good suddenly having wicked loss streaks?

(personally I think it serves them right, reminiscent of when Elo was first activated and pug-stompers got a dose of reality)

There's gonna be a lot of anger that they have to use the terrain, and can't vaporize incoming atlases from the sky.

[Vapor Trail]

I assume that's an expression of Atlas glee.

Jump jets in TT were all about movement, and not about poptarting/hill-humping/cover. If you wanted cover, you had to do it the hard way.

Glad to see that MWO is going back its roots in this regard.

[Soulslave]

can someone let me know please where this has been officially posted?

[silentD11]

Flyby215, on 20 May 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Yay!!

Possible prediction: since poptarters and PPC boats are so successful, these guys probably have an Elo higher than where they should be. After the upcming patch, do you think we'll see a lot of complaining about people who claim to be good suddenly having wicked loss streaks?

(personally I think it serves them right, reminiscent of when Elo was first activated and pug-stompers got a dose of reality)

Nope it won't. Because the current meta of running as a blob to TDM or setting up a TDM firing line instead of actually capturing just means people will move to the next FOTM build and milk the crap out of that. As long as people are playing with kills as their priority there will always be an OP build to move to.

I've been through a fastback 4p, gaussapult, streakcat, splatcat, DDC-ECM, 3L, boomcat, 3d, LRM armageddon, all when they were at their top and the OP build. And since people insist on just killing, I'll get whatever is OP next because as long as it's about kills and not caps there will always be something broken to stomp people with.

Nerf whatever, as long as we have a TDM meta there will always be something broken for us to move to. I'll always be able to min max entirely off of killing and killing alone. It's just a matter of moving from mech to mech, but there will always be something that's the most lethal for me to run the crap out of.

[hammerreborn]

Soulslave, on 20 May 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

can someone let me know please where this has been officially posted?

Uh, the latest NGNG podcast, someone can probably help with the actual minute he mentioned it, or you can look at the other 500 threads on the subject, it's probably in those.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Disclaimer: Not a poptarter

Anything that removes a legitimate tactic from gameplay is nothing to celebrate. I don't like serial alpha poptarters either, but the ability to rapidly clear an obstacle, deliver damage, and disappear behind cover is a legitimate tactic. It's no different than a Stalker or Jager sticking out only a small proportion of it's chassis to fire on an opponent and dip rapidly back under cover.

Balancing is not removal. Balancing is not even about making things equal. Balancing is about the ability to counter a tactic. Jumpsnipers are vulnerable to the same weapons they use, and then some. PPC, Gauss, even AC2 fire. Some crosshair shake should exist to make long range jumpsniping more difficult, but in sucha way that in certain circumstances it is still viable.

That's the problem with most of the people whining on the forums. Nerf this, stop that, because they don't like it, it's not their playstyle, and also when they lack the skill to counter it. Everyone is not a winner, everyone is not equal, there will always be someone with faster reflexes, faster analysis of a situation, sneakier, whatever. Game balance means that there are counters, and counters to the counters, and that people have to learn to use them, modify their gameplay with those tools provided. Not makiing all weapons and mechs equal to each other. That creates a dull and stagnant pvp environment.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 20 May 2013 - 06:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Disclaimer: Not a poptarter

Anything that removes a legitimate tactic from gameplay is nothing to celebrate.

True, but By the physics of the CBT Universe, Jumping and firing do not happen together. So being able to do so in game is... well just wrong. I had fun shooting clay pigeons but if this gets "fixed" then I will mumble less.*shrug*

[Chavette]

I don't know if it will remove it, but it will make it worse, which in pug games will mean you have more teammates who won't be able to aim properly...

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

That's the problem with most of the people whining on the forums. Nerf this, stop that, because they don't like it, it's not their playstyle, and also when they lack the skill to counter it. Everyone is not a winner, everyone is not equal, there will always be someone with faster reflexes, faster analysis of a situation, sneakier, whatever.

I'll be making an exciting post after this patch, regarding the mentality of people in this game. Its gonna be crazy, I'll tell you.

Edited by Chavette, 20 May 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[MrZakalwe]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Disclaimer: Not a poptarter
~stuff~

I don't see the problem with changing jumpjets from a firefight massive advantage to a repositioning/mobility tool. In the current world jumpjets actually remove a lot of play because they negate an awful lot of the need to maneuver or think about firing positions- things mechs with jumpjets would have a natural advantage at anyway.

[Soulslave]

hammerreborn, on 20 May 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Uh, the latest NGNG podcast, someone can probably help with the actual minute he mentioned it, or you can look at the other 500 threads on the subject, it's probably in those.

Thanks, found some. Hopefully this will be changed as quick as possible.
A good brawl is way more fun than this whack a mole game currently.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Where is the post? And great pic.

[Vapor Trail]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Disclaimer: Not a poptarter

Anything that removes a legitimate tactic from gameplay is nothing to celebrate. I don't like serial alpha poptarters either, but the ability to rapidly clear an obstacle, deliver damage, and disappear behind cover is a legitimate tactic. It's no different than a Stalker or Jager sticking out only a small proportion of it's chassis to fire on an opponent and dip rapidly back under cover.

But when a tactic is either so easy to perform and/or so effective it is much easier to perform than it is to counter, then it ceases to be legitimate and is a valid target for balancing/removal.

Sticking out a "small" portion of a mech and dipping back was a problem before. Gauss Hunchies used that tactic in CB long before Stalkers or Jagers were close to appearing. The fix was changing how much of the mech had to show over/past the ridgeline to trigger the IFF triangle. From memory it went from 50% to 25% or something. It made doing that kind of thing HARD, and doing it without risking return fire nearly impossible.

If balancing is impossible, then removal must be considered. In the above example, the ability for the Hunchback to peek and shoot while not showing on sensors was balanced to the point of removal.

Consider: in TT, in order to "poptart" you had to jump in place. Doing so gave you a +3 to your weapons fire to hit, but only a +1 to being fired upon. It didn't protect you from return fire. It gave you 30% of a "baseline" mech's heat dissipation (three heat) in addition to your weapons fire. And you had to have line of sight to your target when did it.

In short, "poptarting" in TT was a collection of diminishing returns that basically got you nothing that changing positions would, and actually hurt you compared to actual movement.

As it stands currently, hitting with a poptart mech is only slightly harder than hitting with a stationary mech. If you know the general location of an enemy you can pop up, fire, and drop very easily.

Return fire, unless the enemy is staring at the poptarter when they crest is difficult at best. With multiple Poptarts on the board, you have to choose one and stare at it... and unless they're really close together you won't be able to change targets fast enough to hit the other one. So you probably will have to ignore that one... possibly giving him a free shot at you.

I doubt that anything short of removal of jump jets completely will completely remove poptarting... but it's going to make it incredibly difficult to do, instead of so easy that it becomes a GEICO commercial.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 20 May 2013 - 06:54 AM.

[Mechteric]

Jump jet reticle shake will not kill poptarting outright you know. It will make it a bit more difficult and more open to retaliation, and that alone may cause some to not partake anymore. But it will still be a valid tactic and deadly in the right hands. Win-win.


See here for a sample of what it could be like from MWLL

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 20 May 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[Jam the Bam]

I play a 3D poptart because they are good fun but I'm welcoming the shake simply because it bugged me that I was 70 tons of metal flying through the air on rocket boosters, it should not be smooth.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

CapperDeluxe, on 20 May 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Jump jet reticle shake will not kill poptarting outright you know. It will make it a bit more difficult and more open to retaliation, and that alone may cause some to not partake anymore. But it will still be a valid tactic and deadly in the right hands. Win-win.


See here for a sample of what it could be like from MWLL

This is how I look at it. Right now it's just super duper simple. Jump, point, click, profit.

My 5 year old could do it.

[Novakaine]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Disclaimer: Not a poptarter

Anything that removes a legitimate tactic from gameplay is nothing to celebrate. I don't like serial alpha poptarters either, but the ability to rapidly clear an obstacle, deliver damage, and disappear behind cover is a legitimate tactic. It's no different than a Stalker or Jager sticking out only a small proportion of it's chassis to fire on an opponent and dip rapidly back under cover.

Balancing is not removal. Balancing is not even about making things equal. Balancing is about the ability to counter a tactic. Jumpsnipers are vulnerable to the same weapons they use, and then some. PPC, Gauss, even AC2 fire. Some crosshair shake should exist to make long range jumpsniping more difficult, but in sucha way that in certain circumstances it is still viable.

That's the problem with most of the people whining on the forums. Nerf this, stop that, because they don't like it, it's not their playstyle, and also when they lack the skill to counter it. Everyone is not a winner, everyone is not equal, there will always be someone with faster reflexes, faster analysis of a situation, sneakier, whatever. Game balance means that there are counters, and counters to the counters, and that people have to learn to use them, modify their gameplay with those tools provided. Not makiing all weapons and mechs equal to each other. That creates a dull and stagnant pvp environment.

As much as I hate poptarts I agree with ya.
Ppc's were never the problem, ppc's and jump jets are.
Ask any astronaut strapped to a Saturn V rocket.

Edited by Novakaine, 20 May 2013 - 07:12 AM.