324 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

The big question is: How will this affect my SDR-5D poptart?

Yes, I saw everyone else doing it and decided to jump on the bandwagon - whaddaya mean I did it wrong?

(Note for the sarcasm-impaired: The above was sarcasm. I do poptart with my 5D occasionally though)

[Nicholas Carlyle]

It's still a tactic.

it just requires skill now.

It's not like you can't jump and shoot. It's just the bigger you are, the more shake you have.

If you really want to use that tactic, play a Treb or a Blackjack.

[Zerberus]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 May 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

This is how I look at it. Right now it's just super duper simple. Jump, point, click, profit.

My 5 year old could do it.

Believe it or not, mine actually does , so that kind of invalidates the whole skill argument (or he`s another b0rN 1337 übersnip0r like most of the other CoD kiddies, which could at least theoretically be true if acquired skills were heredetary)

[jay35]

I have a neutral stance about the change, I'm fine with either scenario. Here near the meat of the Elo bell curve, poptarting has already declined to a moderate level without any nerfs required, so the FOTM is already taken care of in the PUG world. The nerfs are truly unnecessary for the majority of the playerbase. But on the other hand, I do understand that it's out of control in the higher Elo bands and 8-mans, and appreciate the need to do something about it.

Vapor Trail, on 20 May 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Jump jets in TT were all about movement, and not about poptarting/hill-humping/cover.

Irrelevant, since this is MW not TT Battletech. In most of the previous MW games, jumpjets were used for more than just maneuvering.

The sooner you stop trying to force BT TT turn-based rules and mechanics into real-time first-person gameplay, the sooner you'll better appreciate what MWO is all about. Yes, it utilizes certain aspects of Battletech to create the universe and meta, but when it comes to actual gameplay, it by necessity must depart from turn-based strictures and concepts designed and intended for that genre of gaming.

Edited by jay35, 20 May 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Zerberus, on 20 May 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Believe it or not, mine actually does , so that kind of invalidates the whole skill argument (or he`s another b0rN 1337 übersnip0r like most of the other CoD kiddies, which could at least theoretically be true if acquired skills were heredetary)

Honestly, I do believe it. The hardest part of being a poptarter is getting into position. Once you do that, it's jump, point, shoot.

jay35, on 20 May 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

I have a neutral stance about the change, I'm fine with either scenario. Here near the meat of the Elo bell curve, poptarting has already declined to a moderate level without any nerfs required, so the FOTM is already taken care of in the PUG world. The nerfs are truly unnecessary for the majority of the playerbase. But on the other hand, I do understand that it's out of control in the higher Elo bands and 8-mans, and appreciate the need to do something about it.


Irrelevant, since this is MW not TT Battletech. In most of the previous MW games, jumpjets were used for more than just maneuvering.

The sooner you stop trying to force BT TT turn-based rules and mechanics into real-time first-person gameplay, the sooner you'll better appreciate what MWO is all about. Yes, it utilizes certain aspects of Battletech to create the universe and meta, but when it comes to actual gameplay, it by necessity must depart from turn-based strictures and concepts designed and intended for that genre of gaming.

Yes they were used for more than movement, and most people agreed it was bad for the games, when it wasn't held in check by something like shake.

You do realize why SO many people hate 3rd person view? It's because of things like poptarting.

[jay35]

Novakaine, on 20 May 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Ask any astronaut strapped to a Saturn V rocket.

That's actually a faulty comparison. Look at how anything with flight handles, regardless of size it must be smooth and stable, else it will crash or miss the intended destination. Whether we're talking about guided missiles or aircraft, regardless of size, they are generally build for stability and precision, and that inherently means smoothness in their maneuvering. The person strapped to the crew capsule attached to a Saturn V rocket feels the massive Gs of that enormous accelerative launch, but once they are in flight, it's quite stable, and by design, else the rocket would not be able to deliver the payload into the precise orbit required.

Edited by jay35, 20 May 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

jay35, on 20 May 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

That's actually a faulty comparison. Look at how anything with flight handles, regardless of size it must be smooth and stable, else it will crash or miss the intended destination. Whether we're talking about guided missiles or aircraft, regardless of size, they are generally build for stability and precision, and that inherently means smoothness in their maneuvering.

Ever notice how air craft and such are aerodynamic? Ever notice that mechs are anything but?

There should be no smoothness.

[jay35]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 May 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Honestly, I do believe it. The hardest part of being a poptarter is getting into position. Once you do that, it's jump, point, shoot.

That said, the skilled poptarters already know the smartest way to poptart is to do so while running parallel to the front line of combat, which not only minimizes your exposure time, it also makes it much harder to be hit by incoming fire.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

It's no different than a Stalker or Jager sticking out only a small proportion of it's chassis to fire on an opponent and dip rapidly back under cover.

Actually, it's quite different. A Stalker, Jager, dakkaphract, K2, RS, Awesome, or any other non-jumping alpha build must step out of cover, fire, and then step back into cover. A poptart jumps, fires, and then automatically falls back into cover without having to do anything.

Why does this matter? Heat. A Stalker with 4-6 ppcs has to choose, either fire more times and risk getting shot up when you shut down, or fire once (maybe twice) and then back up into cover and cool down again. A poptart can jump, fire, jump, fire, jump, fire, shutdown, fall back into cover, restart, repeat. It removes one of the biggest elements of player skill from the high-pinpoint-alpha builds (heat management).

[jay35]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 May 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Ever notice how air craft and such are aerodynamic? Ever notice that mechs are anything but?

There should be no smoothness.

Ever notice that mechs aren't flying, they're merely jumping a few lengths into the air at speeds much below the need for significant aerodynamics? You really haven't thought your arguments through very well.

Edited by jay35, 20 May 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

jay35, on 20 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

That said, the skilled poptarters already know the smartest way to poptart is to do so while running parallel to the front line of combat, which not only minimizes your exposure time, it also makes it much harder to be hit by incoming fire.

I'm not saying some people aren't better at it than others, but man it's just not that hard. And it's not like they are turning off your weapons when you jump.

You have shake, the good pilots will adjust and still do well.

jay35, on 20 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Ever notice that mechs aren't flying, they're merely jumping a few lengths into the air at speeds much below the need for significant aerodynamics? You really haven't thought your arguments through very well.

How many giant jumping robots have you ever seen? You were the one that started trying to compare them to aircraft, not me.

How do we know how much shake jump jets cause when launching a 90 ton boxy robot in the air?

Oh? What's that? Neither of us do?

Great.

The devs are right on this one, suck it up.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 20 May 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[Vapor Trail]

jay35, on 20 May 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

In most of the previous MW games, jumpjets were used for more than just maneuvering.

What "more" are you talking about? Poptarting? I'll give you that poptarting is "more" than maneuvering. DFA? That's about it. Is there some other "more" I should be aware of?

If you want to poptart, be prepared for it to be hard. I have no problems with poptarting being possible. I have issues when it's easier to poptart actually play 'Battletech.'

jay35, on 20 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Ever notice that mechs aren't flying, they're merely jumping a few lengths into the air at speeds much below the need for significant aerodynamics? You really haven't thought your arguments through very well.

Ever notice that a mech, a many-muti-ton inherently unstable platform launching itself into the air balanced atop at least one column of superheated gases, with muti-ton segmented limbs sometimes approximately half the tonnage of the mech itself that are subject to the changing accelerations of the launch/flight but not directly accelerated by jets, and that every twitch of those limbs affects the attitude, and therefore aim, of the entire mech.

A little screen shake isn't too much to ask.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 20 May 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[jakucha]

Trying to argue how the tech would really work is futile because it's all made up anyway. Anyone can just as easily say the combination of gyro-stabilizers and neurohelmet would counteract any reticle shake. Hell, we already have tanks that can move quickly over bumpy terrain and still hit a target.

Anyway, sounds interesting. Curious to see it when it's implemented.

Edited by jakucha, 20 May 2013 - 07:37 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

jakucha, on 20 May 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Trying to argue how the tech would really work is futile because it's all made up anyway. Anyone can just as easily say the combination of gyro-stabilizers and neurohelmet would counteract any reticle shake.

Anyway, sounds interesting. Curious to see it when it's implemented.

God damnit, I'm actually agreeing with Jakucha. It's the end of the freaking world.

[Sybreed]

all that's left for the devs to do is to kill the heavy alpha meta and the game will be 10 times more fun

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Sybreed, on 20 May 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

all that's left for the devs to do is to kill the heavy alpha meta and the game will be 10 times more fun

I agree, I'm actually starting to get optimistic.

While I don't always agree with the tactics PGI uses to fix the issues they've created. At least they are trying to address them.

[Squirtbox]

They could have just, oh I don't know, fixed convergence to be how it was intended instead of bandaiding the crap out of things. reticle shake wont matter diddly when you just fire at either max elevation or let off the thrust.

also the nerfs to boating are dumb. good thing all those wonderful boat mechs are getting nerfed like the 4p, 8q, a1, jenner f, 2 cicadas, 1x cata, the soon to be released blackjack that's all energy, and what like half the BT mechs in general. great idea on PGI's part.

could have solved the ppc boating issue by returning their heat to their original level and adding penalties to overheating aside from just being turned off. I was never sure why using the override would cause you damage but doing alpha-shutdown-alpha-shutdown did nothing.

[shabowie]

Vapor Trail, on 20 May 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

I assume that's an expression of Atlas glee.

Jump jets in TT were all about movement, and not about poptarting/hill-humping/cover. If you wanted cover, you had to do it the hard way.

Glad to see that MWO is going back its roots in this regard.

Kinda. Jump jets in TT were all about very rapid movement in really rough terrain to spots that were highly advantageous. High ground, a flanking position on an enemy, etc.The way jets are modeled in MWO you can't jump horizontally quickly enough in anything but lights and mediums. Jump jetting heavies and assaults just move too slow. They ought to add more horizontal thrust to jump jets to make up for this change, otherwise mechs like the Highlander are pretty screwed I think. Jumping Cats and Phracts will only be ok if they have big engines.

If they do add some more immediate horizontal thrust to the jets you could see highlanders doing some nice jumps over enemies heads or well to their side in brawls. As it is right now you actually slow down a pretty good deal when you hit your jets.

Edited by shabowie, 20 May 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[shabowie]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 May 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

It's still a tactic.

it just requires skill now.

It's not like you can't jump and shoot. It's just the bigger you are, the more shake you have.

If you really want to use that tactic, play a Treb or a Blackjack.

Well you have no way of saying that definitively at this point. The shake might be so bad it's entirely luck based. Remember PGI likes to really overdo **** and make multiple stacking corrections together. It might be entirely impossible once they get done.

[jakucha]

Squirtbox, on 20 May 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

They could have just, oh I don't know, fixed convergence to be how it was intended instead of bandaiding the crap out of things. reticle shake wont matter diddly when you just fire at either max elevation or let off the thrust.

also the nerfs to boating are dumb. good thing all those wonderful boat mechs are getting nerfed like the 4p, 8q, a1, jenner f, 2 cicadas, 1x cata, the soon to be released blackjack that's all energy, and what like half the BT mechs in general. great idea on PGI's part.

could have solved the ppc boating issue by returning their heat to their original level and adding penalties to overheating aside from just being turned off. I was never sure why using the override would cause you damage but doing alpha-shutdown-alpha-shutdown did nothing.

Quote

Investigation items are not locked in and are exactly that... thoughts and tests. Do NOT go flying off the handle about how this won't work or that won't work until we make an official post. It will severely help your blood pressure.

Edited by jakucha, 20 May 2013 - 07:59 AM.