324 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 20 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

It removes one of the biggest elements of player skill from the high-pinpoint-alpha builds (heat management).

Whoa. That's saying a lot. There isn't actually much skill to high-alpha builds. They hit where you aim instantly with zero spread. Point, click, win.

[Ph30nix]

i just hope it doesnt make my 7m completely useless in its current build
http://mwo.smurfy.de...9ff0a710dac5a92

and please before anyone says haha, in a match i am RARELY going under max speed unless i have positioned myself behind the enemy or in an undetected location, ill fire a few shots from there but then im gone before return fire hits me.

my usual game play is me running around the map jumping over/between terrain taking shots at my targets.

i still personaly blame the introduction of the Highlander for all the QQ, i mean its rare for me to see a highlander win in a brawl vs just about any other assault or even some heavies when skill level is equal. Heck if i have the time to peck one apart before his freinds show up i rarely have trouble with them in my lights.

so really the only way to reliable USE a highlander is poptarting.

[Mister Blastman]

Bobdolemite, on 20 May 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Your targeting reticule does not shake when you run at any speed and move over a small hill, bump, gradient, even boulders and rocks or mountains.

Actually it does. It is far easier to aim and shoot on the move right now while using jump jets than running and shooting. You might hit a random bump or dip while running messing up your shot when you pull the trigger. With jump jets, you know you're not gonna hit a bump and know when the juice will run out so it is easy as pie to time the shot.

Ph30nix, on 20 May 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

so really the only way to reliable USE a highlander is poptarting.

Umm. No.

Fate 6, on 20 May 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

You're making me cry that we don't have exactly that game. It actually looks like a Mechwarrior game.

MW:LL Is a damn fine Mechwarrior game that people don't play. Servers are open. Where is everyone?

[Roland]

Quote

MW:LL Is a damn fine Mechwarrior game that people don't play. Servers are open. Where is everyone?

MW:LL was potentially a good game, which was ruined by a misguided idea that combined arms in a mechwarrior game is a good move.

[Mister Blastman]

Combined arms is the best part!

[Galenit]

jakucha, on 20 May 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Trying to argue how the tech would really work is futile because it's all made up anyway. Anyone can just as easily say the combination of gyro-stabilizers and neurohelmet would counteract any reticle shake. Hell, we already have tanks that can move quickly over bumpy terrain and still hit a target.

Anyway, sounds interesting. Curious to see it when it's implemented.

The targetcomputer from the tank is losttech, we dont have something like that.

The gyro and the helmet work if you walk, but not against shake. Moving your legs in the air does nothing against it,
You can compensate shake passive or active.
Passive you need some buffer material and a lot of space.
Active you need a lot of moveable weights and a good computer that does it for you.
Would weight more then passive but needs less space and is more complicated then the targetcomputer from the tank.

Roland, on 20 May 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

MW:LL was potentially a good game, which was ruined by a misguided idea that combined arms in a mechwarrior game is a good move.

Combined arms are great but difficult to balance ....

[Fabe]

I'm all for a screen shake while jumping, it's a great way to emulate the +3 penalty from tabletop. Hopefully they add something to emulate the the +1 penalty to target a jumping 'mech as well. And while they're at it they should add some heat penalties to aiming and movement as well.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Too much on your plate at once. If you are doing combined arms, balance mechs first, then introduce the next part, balance those two, then the next part.

[General Taskeen]

I like how people claim one needs to be "good" to poptart. Why is this even apart of the discussion about whether it is easy or not? The core issue is the following:

• Jump Jets hardly produce any heat, so a high-alpha while mid-air is entirely possible without shutting down.
  
• Jump Jets recharge is very quick

Combined issues turns into the following: Whack-A-Mole and MW4 had the same problem, but nothing was really done to alleviate the issue. It allows high-alpha strikes with a high frequency with little consequence.


Granted, "poptarting" of old is not the only issue. Heat Balance/Heat Sinks/Heat Threshold is also part of it in this game. MW4 did not increase heat threshold for heatsinks mounted, practically no Mech Warrior game did that I have played (MW3/MW4/MW:LL).

Jumpjets need to have increased functionality for mobility (AKA, fun factor) while at the same time being balanced for the poptart-factor. In addition to the "shake" that PGI apparently will be including, which is exactly what MW:LL did:

• Increase heat generated for jumping
  
• Increase time before jump jet recharges
  
• Increase functionality for mobility/evasion

If there are nerfs, then there should always be factors to increase utility/usefulness. For increased functionality/mobility, Jump Jets should be like this (which also have the bonus of evading missiles):




* Increased acceleration to achieve max distance/height quicker
* Direction affects jump movement (Legs forward, turn torso left and press forward key, jump in that direction)
* Directional Jump Jets (Jump in any direction, A/D+Jump key for strafing while keeping forward aim, W/S+Jump Key for low fast jump forwards or backwards)

Watch the whole video to see examples. It is easily the best implementation of Jump Jets I have ever played in a Mech game.

Edited by General Taskeen, 20 May 2013 - 10:19 AM.

[InRev]

General Taskeen, on 20 May 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

I like how people claim one needs to be "good" to poptart. Why is this even apart of the discussion about whether it is easy or not?

Because people who have used poptarting as their dominant play tactic, and who have experienced fabulous success using said tactic want to appear as if they are being victimized for possessing superior skill, rather than their exploitation of a poor game mechanic.

It's a great psychological defense mechanism, really. "They aren't as good as me so they had to bring me down by nerfing how I play. If I now suck at the game, it's not because I was never very good to begin with but because the whiners did this! Rabble rabble rabble!"

[Ph30nix]

my question is, how much heat do people think are being put out by poptarts? i usualy hear of 2 ERppc 1 gauss builds, i think some people also take 3 er ppc 1 gauss builds but thats pushes it.

this isnt alot of heat people. even 3 ppc 1 gauss you can get off one shot without much trouble unless they make jumpjets cause MASSIVE heat which would kill their use for almost everyone. including the lights that depend on them.

[Blue Hymn]

I don't like poptarts, but a tactic is a tactic. It's not that bad when there's just one or two mech that's trying to poptart and snipe at people. However, it IS pretty bad when there's half the enemy team or more that's poptarting, since it gets pretty damn annoying and near-impossible to flank or push forward.

So here's a question that's been bugging me. Why don't we limit the amount of poptarts available per match? Don't put so many poptarts with each other; I'm pretty sure a match can consist of 2 highlanders at most, and not the 4 or 5 that we see on average. Also, a more diverse group may be more interesting than, you know...a team full of the same chassis or variant.
That way, instead of having to deal with 4 or 5 poptarts, we can deal with something more manageable...

And both parties can still enjoy the game, give or take.

[Kyone Akashi]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Anything that removes a legitimate tactic from gameplay is nothing to celebrate.

Who gets to decide what a "legitimate tactic" is?

ECM+SSRM, Streak-Cats, Splatapults, Knockdown-Stunlocks, Poptarts, ...

Not everything that is technically possible in a game makes it better or should be considered a "legitimate tactic" just because it can be done. It is even more puzzling when the removal of said possibility - which perhaps was never intended to exist in such a dominating form - is then lamented as the removal of a "legitimate tactic", if its existence was the sole reason for why it was considered legitimate in the first place.

Fine, I guess you just have your definition of a legitimate tactic.

I have my own:
Anything that preserves the spirit of the game and has a place in the Battletech setting.

Besides, from what it sounds like, it'll still be possible, no? It just happens to become a bit more difficult - rather fitting to the technical limitations in the background, combat tactics as presented in various stories, and certainly better for the preservation of classical short range engagements like the ones we had in earlier versions of MWO.

Blue Hymn, on 20 May 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Why don't we limit the amount of poptarts available per match?

This is a line of reasoning I just can't follow. Instead of balancing, we should just limit the number of people who can benefit from an apparently overpowering advantage? That just sounds un-fun to both the players that still get disarmed or cored with a single shot from a klick away as well as the JJ-Snipers who fail to find a match because of this limitation, or are not allowed to drop with their groupmates, or at the very least will experience a much different placement in ELO.

[edit] ... or are not actually "Poptarts" themselves but just happen to use the same type of 'Mech...

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 20 May 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Carbon Guardian]

Bobdolemite, on 20 May 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Whether you want to admit it or not it takes skill to hit a moving target at 1000 meters +, skill being defined as a steady hand and accurate hand eye coordination that allows you to line the shot up, JJ shake is a random introduction so no matter how steady your hand is or accurate your eye the reticule will move randomly without any coherent way to counter balance it using skill IE skill remover instead of skill enhancer.

You are assuming the target is moving laterally and not walking towards or away from you! No skill in shooting a mech that is moving in a straight line towards you. Laterally however requires skill. And I seriously doubt a player could skillfully shoot a mech moving laterally by poptarting.

A much simpler solution to all of this is heat due to jump jets. In TT they put out loads of heat so after two jumps and 2 ppcs heat build up should be a problem. Which would make a lot of players not want to poptart!

[Kyone Akashi]

Carbon Guardian, on 20 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

A much simpler solution to all of this is heat due to jump jets. In TT they put out loads of heat so after two jumps and 2 ppcs heat build up should be a problem. Which would make a lot of players not want to poptart!

Mhmm. At least a number of JJ-Snipers don't seem to care all that much about overheating. That's one of the biggest advantage of using this method over conventional sniping from cover, actually: if you do power down, you automatically fall back into safety, out of the enemy's sight until you've cooled down enough that you can JJ and fire your 4 PPCs again. Rinse, repeat.
So, such a change would ironically hurt the brawlers or skirmishers that JJ and discharge their weapons in mid-air right into their target's face more than the snipers.

The devs already announced they might want to introduce penalties or damage for overheating in the future, though, so there is that.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 20 May 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[Carbon Guardian]

Ph30nix, on 20 May 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

my question is, how much heat do people think are being put out by poptarts? i usualy hear of 2 ERppc 1 gauss builds, i think some people also take 3 er ppc 1 gauss builds but thats pushes it.

this isnt alot of heat people. even 3 ppc 1 gauss you can get off one shot without much trouble unless they make jumpjets cause MASSIVE heat which would kill their use for almost everyone. including the lights that depend on them.

Heat could be defined by the weight of the JJ! Lights use half ton JJs and heavies use 1 ton JJs. Interesting note I just looked in the mech lab at JJs under their description and no heat or is this info just not updated?

[Shinikaru]

I have an idea. Lets whine to PGI until they equip all mechs with nothing but feather-dusters and put in the "maid-outfit" camo.

Then we can all tickle one another as we sweep our way over to the cap locations.

Sounds fun.


People would probably just complain that they were being dusted too hard however, so feathers would eventually be in for a nerf.

[Carbon Guardian]

Kyone Akashi, on 20 May 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Mhmm. At least a number of JJ-Snipers don't seem to care all that much about overheating. That's one of the biggest advantage of using this method over conventional sniping from cover, actually: if you do power down, you automatically fall back into safety, out of the enemy's sight until you've cooled down enough that you can JJ and fire your 4 PPCs again. Rinse, repeat.
So, such a change would ironically hurt the brawlers or skirmishers that JJ and discharge their weapons in mid-air right into their target's face more than the snipers.

The devs already announced they might want to introduce penalties or damage for overheating in the future, though, so there is that.

I see your point

[Carbon Guardian]

Shinikaru, on 20 May 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I have an idea. Lets whine to PGI until they equip all mechs with nothing but feather-dusters and put in the "maid-outfit" camo.

Then we can all tickle one another as we sweep our way over to the cap locations.

Sounds fun.


People would probably just complain that they were being dusted too hard however, so feathers would eventually be in for a nerf.

I have an idea you stop whining about all the whiners so the rest of us can talk and come up with ideas! Where do you think game developers get out of the box ideas? Answer from the forums, it's water off the ducks back to them. But having to read people writing stop whining instead of here's a good solution or potentially good solution, they read "everyone stop whining", which translates to appease the majority!

[Gamgee]

Shinikaru, on 20 May 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

I have an idea. Lets whine to PGI until they equip all mechs with nothing but feather-dusters and put in the "maid-outfit" camo.

Then we can all tickle one another as we sweep our way over to the cap locations.

Sounds fun.


People would probably just complain that they were being dusted too hard however, so feathers would eventually be in for a nerf.

Someone's maaaaaddd....