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Snipe Weapons


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#21 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:39 AM

View PostTerror Teddy, on 20 May 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:


1. Go back to basic armour
2. Split weapon damage into 10 second DPS
3. Chop up the 10 seconds into different chunks of cycle time for each weapon.

AC/20 could do 5 damage each 2,5 seconds and while that wont SOUND like much it would be felt a lot more if your armour is half of what it is and it is.

LRM20 could do 2 damage per second as it spawns LRM's towards an enemy.

Hell, we might even have had an option to select what type of gun we want, like an actual AC20 that DOES fire once every 10 seconds but unloads those 20 damage at once and instakills a light enemy since we would have the actual TT ratings of armour.

ALPHA damage would also be more interesting since an alpha strike was usually delivered during ten seconds and not ONE like we have in MWO.

I'm telling you, it would work.

Additional guideline I suggest - no weapon can deal more damage per shot than the number of crit slot it occupies. Adjust the recycle rate until you have a value you achieved at least this. Then adjust to taste, and you might want to give some extra DPS advantages to weapon whose recycle rate is particularly fast.
So an AC/20 could feasibly exist as a 10 damage per shot every 5 second weapon. A PPC however would need to deal about 3 damage every 3 seconds. (funny thing - the Clan ER PPC occupies only 2 crit slots, but deals 15 damage in 10 seconds. It would need a recycle rate of 1.33 for 3 damage and 3 heat.)

One of the balance assumptions behind energy and ballistic stats used to be in the table top that a lot of the weight and crits (if not most) of an energy weapon would come from the heat sinks needed to run it. That worked okayish in the table top, because heat penalties began much earlier and while high damage alphas could be nasty, they lacked the precision they have in games like M:WO, so it was wise to not heat up too much. This forced people to skimp less on the heat sinks. For 6 PPCs, a table top mech would probably normally install 25 double heat sinks to avoid being too hot (which is very hard to realistically equip). But in M:WO, we hav a high heat capacity, so people don't equip that many DHS, and trust to ride on the heat capacity and spend time cooling off in the shades. (Something that would actually be difficult for a hot mech, as heat penalties lower the speed of mech, so getting back into cover is much harder. And of course, hexes are pretty large - you don't really need to run a full 90m in MW:O to get into cover.)

So, in short, the 4-6 PPC Stalkers and Highlanders need less crit space and weight than they "should". An advantage ballistics wouldn't have to that extent, because there is not much to skimp in terms of heat sinks, and all the weight and crit space in the weapon itself.

Linking shot damage to crit slots would neatly avoid this issue. You would have systematically limited the maximum alpha potential of any mech (about 50 damage, that's approximately the number of free crit slots).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 20 May 2013 - 10:45 AM.


#22 Ph30nix

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:42 AM

View PostTerror Teddy, on 20 May 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:


1. Go back to basic armour
2. Split weapon damage into 10 second DPS
3. Chop up the 10 seconds into different chunks of cycle time for each weapon.

AC/20 could do 5 damage each 2,5 seconds and while that wont SOUND like much it would be felt a lot more if your armour is half of what it is and it is.

LRM20 could do 2 damage per second as it spawns LRM's towards an enemy.

Hell, we might even have had an option to select what type of gun we want, like an actual AC20 that DOES fire once every 10 seconds but unloads those 20 damage at once and instakills a light enemy since we would have the actual TT ratings of armour.

ALPHA damage would also be more interesting since an alpha strike was usually delivered during ten seconds and not ONE like we have in MWO.

I'm telling you, it would work.

okay so my Deathknell who has 20 firepower (4 medium lasers) and a sustained DPS of 2.7 in current format, so you want to take it down to .27 dps.... your on crack.

this would make most mechs entirely useless in any one on one confrontation, it would make light mech packs a utter joke. and matches would go form 5-15 minutes to probably 30-50 minutes. your lowering damage by factor of 10 but only lowering armor by 1/2......

as it is if i run into an assault mech all alone its very difficulty to kill them or do significant damage before their freinds show up. Hit and run tactics would be worthless.

View PostLupus Aurelius, on 20 May 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:


And the best way to do that is address the heat system and the fitting system. Limit crit slots that can be used for weapons systems in each section. Have heat be a hard cap, with more heat sinks just increasing the rate of heat dissipation.

Heat sinks adding heat capability and no limitation to how many crits can be used for specific catagories of weapons is the root cause for multiple issues. "Corrective Action" needs to address the actual root cause, not repeated nerfs and buffs to weapon systems.

This would limit ALL MECHS equally, prevent boating of any larger weapon systems, and drive more "balanced" builds.

who says we need "balanced' builds?

its called specilization, if you want to be a jack of all trades but master of none, dont complain when someone fully devoted to a job does it better than you.

#23 Karr285

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:46 AM

View PostLupus Aurelius, on 20 May 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Sniping weapons are not just sniping weapons, they can be use closer ranged as well. Giving a AC20/SRM/LPL/ML close range brawling with the ability to fire 2-3 times faster than the "sniper" fit ERPPC/PPC/Guass negates the ability to defend at close range. And what of the AC2, UAC5, AC5, AC10 , aren't those "sniper weapons" as well?


they can still be used for close range, just not as effective as actual brawl weapons, Plus it FORCES you to not boat them unless you want to be vulnerable at close range, ala LRM boats, IE MUST BRING BACKUP weapons or face the reprocussions of a non balanced mech.

and if you want to be really technical even at 6 seconds its not even 2x as slow as Med lasers or AC20's

Edited by Karr285, 20 May 2013 - 10:48 AM.


#24 Terror Teddy

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:48 AM

View PostPh30nix, on 20 May 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

okay so my Deathknell who has 20 firepower (4 medium lasers) and a sustained DPS of 2.7 in current format, so you want to take it down to .27 dps.... your on crack.


No, beacuse I'm talking about the TT values that does not have a set cycle time.

Medium laser is 5 damage and 4 of them is 20. That's 0,5 damage per second or 2 dps with 4 of them

This could also be changed so that medium lasers in this case perhaps only fired every 2,5 seconds so their individual damage would be 1,25 but their alpha every 2,5 second with 4 of them would do 5 damage.

Now, keep in mind that we would use actual TT armour values so that enemy mech cockpit is actually 18 points of armour and not 36.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 20 May 2013 - 10:49 AM.


#25 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:49 AM

View PostPh30nix, on 20 May 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

okay so my Deathknell who has 20 firepower (4 medium lasers) and a sustained DPS of 2.7 in current format, so you want to take it down to .27 dps.... your on crack.

I think you misunderstood the system. A single Medium Laser deals 5 damage in a 10 second turn. That is equivalent to 0.5 DPS, so your Death Knell with 4 Medium Lasers would have a 2 DPS. If it kept its 4 second total cooldown, it would deal 8 damage on an alpha strike.
ALso, to keep it "heat neutral", you'd need only 16 standard heat sinks or 8 DHS, where as now you need 40 standard heat sinks or 20 (true) DHS.

#26 TruePoindexter

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostKarr285, on 20 May 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Need longer Cooldowns. ppc - 4 seconds, ER PPC 6 seconds, gauss 5 seconds.


Aren't they already doing the 4s CD on PPCs/ERPPCs?

These are also supposed to be reasonably high DPS weapons so I think pushing at leas the ER PPC that high might be a bit much.

#27 Lupus Aurelius

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:53 AM

View PostKarr285, on 20 May 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:


they can still be used for close range, just not as effective as actual brawl weapons, Plus it FORCES you to not boat them unless you want to be vulnerable at close range, ala LRM boats, IE MUST BRING BACKUP weapons or face the reprocussions of a non balanced mech.

and if you want to be really technical even at 6 seconds its not even 2x as slow as Med lasers or AC20's


And the best way still to do that is address the heat system and the fitting system. Limit crit slots that can be used for weapons systems in each section. Have heat be a hard cap, with more heat sinks just increasing the rate of heat dissipation.

#28 Karr285

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:56 AM

View PostTruePoindexter, on 20 May 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:


Aren't they already doing the 4s CD on PPCs/ERPPCs?

These are also supposed to be reasonably high DPS weapons so I think pushing at leas the ER PPC that high might be a bit much.

you think 4 seconds is going to change anything? what do ppl use currenty, Gauss + PPC what is the Cd of guass? 4 seconds... so ppl are already just group firing those so the change is????? oh absolutely nothing

View PostLupus Aurelius, on 20 May 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:


And the best way still to do that is address the heat system and the fitting system. Limit crit slots that can be used for weapons systems in each section. Have heat be a hard cap, with more heat sinks just increasing the rate of heat dissipation.

they wont touch convergence or anything else that would fix it, so changing the foundation of how they have coded mechs to be fitted will probably never happen as well. anything proposed "fixes" that require changing of the base systems in anyway I doubt will EVER happen with PGI.

#29 Blue Hymn

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:59 AM

Frankly, I think the ppcs are doing fine. I mainly pilot an Awesome, and dammit, we need a weapon platform that can compete against other dangerous mechs. It's already bad enough that it can't use ballistics - which I call shenanigans - and the awesome is intentionally designed to be a ppc boat. How the Stalker stole that job from us is beyond me.

Anyways, as I was saying, ppcs and gauss have their roles, and they perform those roles fine. What I think should solve your distaste for snipe weapons would be the missiles - and hopefully PGI will be able to return the original damage back as well to them.

#30 Karr285

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:02 AM

Plz tell me how a weapon with a 6-10 second travel time can stop a sniper, its ludicrous to even make that statement. Walk out snipe, hide missiles hit wall repeat, yup Missiles > Snipers.

#31 arghmace

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:02 AM

Even if PPC's had a cycle time of 6 seconds that wouldn't hurt poptarts one bit.

#32 pencilboom

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:04 AM

View PostBlue Hymn, on 20 May 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Frankly, I think the ppcs are doing fine. I mainly pilot an Awesome, and dammit, we need a weapon platform that can compete against other dangerous mechs. It's already bad enough that it can't use ballistics - which I call shenanigans - and the awesome is intentionally designed to be a ppc boat. How the Stalker stole that job from us is beyond me.

Anyways, as I was saying, ppcs and gauss have their roles, and they perform those roles fine. What I think should solve your distaste for snipe weapons would be the missiles - and hopefully PGI will be able to return the original damage back as well to them.


Bumping PPC cycle rate to 4 is quite negligible I'd say. Now that you've mentioned about the stock Awesome, yes I agree with you. The tweak(nerfs/adjustment) towards PPC should also considers the stock PPC boats. As many already proposed hardpoint sizes actually comes pretty handy in solving these issues..But I just don't get it why the forum community is so against the idea....Maybe because they'll no longer be able to boat 4/6 PPC in their friggin' Stalkers anymore..

#33 Karr285

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:11 AM

I think its to the point you realize that PGI isnt cappable of half the idea's you have, if it isnt a number change, ie range, heat, damage, speed, reload etc they cant do it. so if it cant be balanced with that it wont be balanced.

#34 TruePoindexter

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostKarr285, on 20 May 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

you think 4 seconds is going to change anything? what do ppl use currenty, Gauss + PPC what is the Cd of guass? 4 seconds... so ppl are already just group firing those so the change is????? oh absolutely nothing


Oh I didn't say it would be a massive change - just that they're already going in that direction.

I'm more worried about how these weapons perform outside of sniping. Gauss is intended to be somewhat analogous to AC10/AC20s in their usage. The Gauss has the advantages of low heat and good range while being slightly inferior to alternatives at closer distances. The AC's are already superior in other roles and pushing the Gauss DPS even lower widens this gap.

#35 Petroshka

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:16 AM

instead of cooldown, add a 500ms warmup. similar to missiles. When you click fire *whiiiirrrrrrrrr* *BOOM*

#36 Karr285

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:19 AM

View PostPetroshka, on 20 May 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

instead of cooldown, add a 500ms warmup. similar to missiles. When you click fire *whiiiirrrrrrrrr* *BOOM*

hmm a delay, that would be interesting to see.

#37 Stone Profit

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:37 AM

View PostTerror Teddy, on 20 May 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

The problem is not cycle times but rather the convergence.

Short range weapons have the drawback of limited range where they are worse at range - but there is no drawback at all for longer range weapons when they brawl.

A better way to fix this would be to have a reduced convergence the closer an enemy is under optimal range - something that would affect ALL weapons.

A face hugging enemy 1 meter from an atlas means that a torso mounted Gauss would essentally have ZERO convergence.

At 330 meters it would have 50% convergence with other weapons so they would not hit the exact same spot.

Arm moutned weapons would fair a bit better due to their movement but they would still have a slight problem depending on how wide the mech is.

Torso mounted weapons should ALWAYS have zero convergence. I mean are they shifting around in the torso on gimbals or what!?

#38 buttmonkey

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:53 AM

well when all you see match after match is potarting ppc boats you know something is wrong with balance lol. imo its the heat threshholds and coolant flush (which we were promised would never come). now people can alpha over and over and to top it all off, they seem to be able to do this without coolant flush as well. 6ppcs shoud shut your mech down surely? or even cook your pilot alive! also the JJ should generate more heat, doesnt make sense these poptarts use their JJ all day long and it doesnt seem to add to the heat at all

#39 Blue Hymn

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:57 AM

View PostKarr285, on 20 May 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Plz tell me how a weapon with a 6-10 second travel time can stop a sniper, its ludicrous to even make that statement. Walk out snipe, hide missiles hit wall repeat, yup Missiles > Snipers.


I mean...you DO want to force the snipers to move, right?
You DO want to suppress them from peeking their heads out, preventing them from sniping against your fellow teammates, right?

Missiles are often used as support - lrms especially. The support role is meant to support other mechs - suppressing or softening up targets while other mechs move in for the kill. The fact that the sniper is hiding behind some wall or something also means that he's not shooting at your other teammates, allowing them to flank or position themselves better against the adversary.

The problem is currently, there is nothing right now that is forcing the snipers to duck for cover, other than other snipers. Missiles, artilleries and airstrikes are one potential alternative to that situation.

#40 Karr285

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:00 PM

View PostBlue Hymn, on 20 May 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:


I mean...you DO want to force the snipers to move, right?
You DO want to suppress them from peeking their heads out, preventing them from sniping against your fellow teammates, right?

Missiles are often used as support - lrms especially. The support role is meant to support other mechs - suppressing or softening up targets while other mechs move in for the kill. The fact that the sniper is hiding behind some wall or something also means that he's not shooting at your other teammates, allowing them to flank or position themselves better against the adversary.

The problem is currently, there is nothing right now that is forcing the snipers to duck for cover, other than other snipers. Missiles, artilleries and airstrikes are one potential alternative to that situation.


Missiles barely do this.... LRMs wont stop Snipers from Sniping, I know even when LRM's were Broken good, It is simple to peek for 1 second snipe then hide and cool off... so LRMs do what for this? suppress me while Im cooling off. In no way will LRMS make me or anybody move and unless you have equal number of LRM boats to snipers or more even, you wont suppress them very well. So I peek hit you with 40-45 damage then hide while you do 0 missile damage, repeat 2-3 times missile boat is dead, yup great counter.

Edited by Karr285, 20 May 2013 - 01:01 PM.






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