332 replies to this topic

[Nalin]

sarkun, on 21 May 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

wow, lots of changes. Will have to take some time to test all of that...

I disagree with the AMS buff though - it will shift LRMs more towards all or nothing builds, 70LRM stalkers etc, while hurting 30LRM catapults and trebutchets. I'd rather make those builds more viable.

It won't have any change on gameplay at all. The AMS "buff" is very devious. It makes people think AMS changed when, actually, nothing has changed at all.

Pre-patch, AMS did 2 damage every 0.5 seconds to missiles that have 1 HP.
Post-patch, AMS will do 3.5 damage every 0.5 seconds to missiles that have 1 HP.

So unless they stealth buffed missile HP, AMS will still kill missiles at the same rate it did before. Just less effectively against LRMs because of the LRM speed buff. So, instead of destroying 4 LRMs from a stand still, it will only destroy 3 now.

EDIT: After being informed that AMS has damage drop-off, I decided to run some numbers on a spreadsheet. Using the worst possible scenario (AMS fires at 200m, doing 0 damage to the first missile), AMS under the old LRM flight speed would only kill 2 missiles (the first shot does 0 damage, second does 0.9 damage, third deals 1.8, finally killing the first missile, and the last does 2, killing a 2nd missile). Ironically, the LRM speed increase actually was a buff to AMS damage, causing the missiles to travel closer to the optimal range faster, letting it kill 3 missiles (first shot 0 damage, 2nd shot 1.1, killing a missile, 3rd shot 2, killing a missle, 4th shot 2, killing a missile). Upping the AMS damage to 3.5 did not change anything. It is possible that a damage increase to 3.5 might, under certain circumstances (namely, when the AMS actually starts firing at missiles), allow it to kill an extra missile.

Edited by Nalin, 21 May 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[Vasces Diablo]

Jakob Knight, on 21 May 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

So, if I am understanding this correctly, a flamer will now shut down any mech that takes any action within seconds. For illustration of a single flamer doing 1 heat, the first second, it does 1 heat to the target, the second 2, the third 4, the fourth 8, the fifth, 16, the sixth 32, the seventh 64....up to 90% heat on the target. As soon as the target fires or does anything that generates heat (or is on a map that adds heat), the mech shuts down. Multiple flamers will cut the time needed by a factor of the number of flamers, allowing a mech with 4 flamers to shut down any mech in about four seconds.

Sound about right?

Yep. Exponential heating rate + what ever heat the target is generating means you can hit 90% pretty quick. Once at 90%, your 4-7 points of heat away from shut down, and when even moving causes 1-2 points of heat.... you basically can't do anything. This is essentially a stun lock. Which is sad since they stated they were capping it at 90% to avoid it being a stun lock mechanic.

Edited by Vasces Diablo, 21 May 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 May 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

I think you may be the one who has a reading problem. I don't honestly care anymore about consumables, they are so annoying to use. I could have all of the c-bill versions maxxed if I wanted.

I don't bother reading them anymore, because they don't fit in the game at all.

Then why comment at all, just to get that jibe in? If you don't care to read or just don't care, that's all fine. If you don't comment as well, you have the perfecta tri-fecta and don't sound like a child.

[Tsunamisan]

Thanks PGI for the leg nurf as if it was not already unbearable for light mechs as it was already. This is intolerable and will refuse to play any light mechs ther after if you do not remove the stun re-occurrence when hit. The only thing a light mech has going for it is its fast legs and now your taking that away by penalizing the mechs that needs it the most. With all the boats out there mechs like my jenner can have a fully armored leg lost in 1 hit from 1km out. Making it limp for the rest of the match or until killd which right now is almost instant when you make a light go 15KKPH you signing its death plain an simple and players will hate you for this as i do. if you dont revert this change i will qit an play other games this is bullcrap.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Jakob Knight, on 21 May 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

I don't understand your reasoning. If a light is within 180 meters, he doesn't have to maintain LOS to completely shut down your LRMs. If he does maintain LOS, it is probably because he is behind you, killing you and maintaining the range as he likes. If he -isn't- within 180 meters, you -still- can't fire your LRMs because his ECM blocks you locking onto him and getting your LRMs to hit in the very small window that your snapshot hit with TAG -might- allow if you actually have LOS to him.

Well, I guess we'll see what the results are on the battlefield, but I don't see this in any way changing the picture for LRM indirect support units.

I think you are misunderstanding me.

So if I have BAP, a Light mech has to stay between 151m and 180m to shut down my LRM's.

In my Centurion, that would be near impossible. I move at 98kph, so he'd really have to work hard to make that happen. As I said, he'd HAVE to focus on me.

Whereas before he'd just have to kind of linger anywhere from 1-180m away, and doesn't really have to even attack me.

Now in my highlander, which only goes 60kph, it'll be a bit harder. But still, the light mech will probably have to work hard to stay in his 30m window.

And I will likely get off a few shots on his buddies while he'd doing so.

It's not about killing him, it's about being able to shoot his friends while he's near me.

[Jakob Knight]

Doomstryke, on 21 May 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Until you realise that most people will throw BAB on their mech meaning it will take 2-3 ecm mechs to cancel it out cause you know you should be running with your group. It also means like others said atlas that are slow will still be able to fire their streaks to deal with lights. It also means that, hey if by that odd chance you run more then 1 person running lrm's they can shoot at each others target so yes BAB will still be really usefull for lrm boats. They will just call someone else to nuke their target as its ecm will most likely be canceled. This is all good as it will force the lights to be lot more carefull instead of just blitzing through the crowds

Not saying it isn't a bad thing at all, just that it isn't a good thing for LRMs. It's a great thing for Streak users and brawlers. But for units that are supposed to be support units behind the main line and depending on indirect fire to contribute to the team, it doesn't do much at all.

Also, the mechs that can afford a BAP without crippling their mechs tend to be Heavies and Assaults. Mediums and Lights already have tight limits on their tonnage in order to bring enough firepower to matter, and sacrificing 2 tons of ammo, 2 weapons, or 2 tons of armor on these can be a major issue. Not all mechs on a team are going to be able to do it. And, since one BAP only counters one ECM, the ECM units are going to have an advantage unless all of the BAP units are closely packed together. I don't think I need to illustrate why that might be a bad idea.

As I said, we'll see what happens on the battlefield. That is, ultimately, the final determination on if something works or not.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

MaddMaxx, on 21 May 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Then why comment at all, just to get that jibe in? If you don't care to read or just don't care, that's all fine. If you don't comment as well, you have the perfecta tri-fecta and don't sound like a child.

Really? You are going to call me a child? Dude, go look at both of our posting histories. You are just being silly.

A] Consumables are always going to be bad for this game. B] Me asking a guy to clarify what his issue was without me going back and reading about something that is bad for the game is not being a "child".

Dear lord you stink at forums.

[MaddMaxx]

Dude42, on 21 May 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Question: If you have LRMs and one of your teammates has BAP and is within 150m of an ECM mech, can they relay the position of the ECM mech for targeting purposes?

Yes, positional data is always relayed when ECM is down. If that BAP carrier can also get a NARC on the target, then that LRM chucker has 30 seconds to off-load on that target and the NARC'r may back off the 150M BAP based range to a more safe fighting distance.

[PhoenixFire55]

BitMonger505, on 21 May 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

would you like some cheese togo with your whine sir?

Yes please, along with your special fanboy cookies.

[Jakob Knight]

Vasces Diablo, on 21 May 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Yep. Exponential heating rate + what ever heat the target is generating means you can hit 90% pretty quick. Once at 90%, your 4-7 points of heat away from shut down, and when even moving causes 1-2 points of heat.... you basically can't do anything. This is essentially a stun lock. Which is sad since they stated they were capping it at 90% to avoid it being a stun lock mechanic.

Well, we have seen from the ECM debacle that the Devs really don't have that good an idea about battlefield conditions and combat balance. Guess we'll just have to roll with it until they realize they have, yet again, utterly failed to grasp game balance.

At this point, I wouldn't be that surprised if we see Wave Motion Guns and Crockett missiles introduced.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 21 May 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Acid Phase]

Brilliant. New FOTM is LRM boats.

[Fr4ctal]

Holy.... LRMs are beast mode now. Just did my first round with LRM boat.

[PhoenixFire55]

NvSylvenau, on 21 May 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I will ask my very dear friend Cicero wether or not he'd be d'accord.... You know, Republicans fighting tyranny, tyranny wins, Republic established again for.. 20 years before Augustus took over and Republic was gone.

Slow and steady wins the race.

Its actually a good idea. Get rid of PGI's arbitrary decisions tyranny and establish a players community republic!

[Little Details]

lol, what did lights ever do to PGI? Zero reason to play a light anymore. Glad I elited the ones I wanted to play in the last month (jenner, cicada, already elited spiders) when I heard about bap+ssrm. Now throw on seismic sensor and massively decreased speed when legged and they're useless.

Lights don't get rewarded (cbill/xp) for scouting so they turned more to harrassment and a way to temporarily shut down snipers. Now they can't do that. It wasn't bad enough that we can be 1/2 shotted with ease after HSR (which I agree with - you should hit what you aim at), but that was enough to hurt lights in the game. Now, lights are completely useless all around.

[Kattspya]

Patch underwhelming still no money from me.

That SRM's are left untouched is chafing my nuts something fierce.

[TheMightyWashburn]

ICEFANG13, on 21 May 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

I'm surprised that they increased LRM damage but did nothing to SSRM (which unless made different, could stay at their current power) and nothing to SRMs. Am I the only one who sees almost no SRMs anymore?

I use them on almost every single mech to great effect. 2 SRM 6s is still 18 damage which is nothing to shake a stick at.

My DDC runs 2 LBXs, 3 SRM6s and 2 MLs and it RULES. The tighter spread and SRM flight path changes will be nice.

[Lightfoot]

Acid Phase, on 21 May 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Brilliant. New FOTM is LRM boats.

Actually, I had mine already built, but it's just LRM 30 and a mixed loadout otherwise. Hopefully it works with just LRM 30 as a contribution to the whole loadout.

[PhoenixFire55]

1453 R, on 21 May 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

There's criticism and there's being a jerk, Phoenix. PGI has more than enough jerks to deal with. Their motivation for improvement is making a better game that generates more money - ripping their guts out is just motivation for them to not let us play it for a while.

I would be perfectly happy if the game was still in closed beta. But ... they are taking our money already and fail to deliver anything that resembles a balanced game. Now who is being a jerk?

[Mechteric]

Kattspya, on 21 May 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Patch underwhelming still no money from me.

That SRM's are left untouched is chafing my nuts something fierce.

Its coming, apparently they weren't ready to release that yet from what I hear was said on the NGNG podcast.

[Jakob Knight]

LT Satisfactory, on 21 May 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

lol, what did lights ever do to PGI? Zero reason to play a light anymore. Glad I elited the ones I wanted to play in the last month (jenner, cicada, already elited spiders) when I heard about bap+ssrm. Now throw on seismic sensor and massively decreased speed when legged and they're useless.

Lights don't get rewarded (cbill/xp) for scouting so they turned more to harrassment and a way to temporarily shut down snipers. Now they can't do that. It wasn't bad enough that we can be 1/2 shotted with ease after HSR (which I agree with - you should hit what you aim at), but that was enough to hurt lights in the game. Now, lights are completely useless all around.

Well, to be fair, Light mechs were always supposed to be scouts, harrassers, and flankers, not main combat units. That they were put to use like that never seemed right to me. Now at least, Light pilots will have to do the jobs they should have been doing when they chose to step into the cockpit of a Light, fast battlemech built to avoid heavy combat, not seek it out.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 21 May 2013 - 10:55 AM.