507 replies to this topic

[deff lizzard]

I only do PUGs, but...so far the change has been mostly positive. Yeah, LRMs are a little out of control. Cover *should* do a better job of stopping them. But that's my only real complaint. Otherwise, matches are much more dynamic. The critical mass death blob is gone because that's how you get owned by LRMs. Instead, there's lots of flanking, lots of maneuver, and it's great.

The Blackjack, honestly, plays like a faster Hunchback, and I can dig that. I'm rocking 6 ML + STD 280 and lots of DHS on the -1X variant and I'm averaging 300-450 damage/game with it. It's fast enough to not auto-die to LRMs and hits hard enough to kill things good and proper.

I'm happy with the game, for once.

Edited by Brynjolf Heimskarr, 23 May 2013 - 01:20 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Brynjolf Heimskarr, on 23 May 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

I only do PUGs, but...so far the change has been mostly positive. Yeah, LRMs are a little out of control. Cover *should* do a better job of stopping them. But that's my only real complaint. Otherwise, matches are much more dynamic. The critical mass death blob is gone because that's how you get owned by LRMs. Instead, there's lots of flanking, lots of maneuver, and it's great.

The Blackjack, honestly, plays like a faster Hunchback, and I can dig that. I'm rocking 6 ML + STD 280 and lots of DHS on the -1X variant and I'm averaging 300-450 damage/game with it. It's fast enough to not auto-die to LRMs and hits hard enough to kill things good and proper.

I'm happy with the game, for once.

I don't know if I would say it's dynamic - my experience has been pretty static. LRM boats abound now. Honestly the part that really bugs me isn't the LRMs but the play style they encourage. People just sit in the back waiting for someone to spoon feed them targets. God help them if they encounter a coordinate group because there's no amount of LRM fire that will save them.

As for LRMs being bugged... well I have lots of footage of LRMs tracking me directly vertical in the most absurd situations.

I'm really curious why the SRM flight path was changed - they were ok before so why the change? Now they spread immediately and never converge - just a wide spray of fire. It's a dramatic reduction in effectiveness at anything but point blank range at a time when short range weaponry was already under performing.

Regarding missiles: I've said this several times so I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself but why not make all missiles (LRMs, SRMs, and SSRMs) a skill shot. Just following the MW3 model makes the missiles much more interesting:

• Make the missile lock difficult to acquire but last a bit after acquired - say 1 second and no longer require facing the target.
  
• Missiles fire in the direction of their launcher not immediately in the direction of the target.
  
• Missiles steer towards the target at a fixed turning rate and flight speed (SSRMs are the fastest and most agile, LRMs are the slowest and least agile).
  
• Missile fly for specific amount of time based on their range (current LRMs hit targets @900-1000m despite the flight path actually being much longer than the 1000m range). This limits the effective range an angled shot can have. Straight shots get max range.
  
• Locks do not have to be maintained - missiles are fire and forget.

In this system it wouldn't be enough to just get a lock and fire at the target. You would need to approximate a firing vector and fire in that direction. Target around a corner to the left? Fire a little to the right so the missiles round the turn. Target behind a hill? Volley at a sharp angle so the missiles steer over the hill.

These fixed flight paths are boring and just make them either weak or an OP gimmick.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 23 May 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[Thunder Child]

Vanguard319, on 22 May 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

NO thanks, right now the factor deciding who wins is who fields more TAGs and LRMs. The only way to beat it is to base rush with light mechs. (which I'm sure people will whine about if done ingame.) LRMs were already usable in the previous patch, but now they are horribly unbalanced compared to other weapons.

So please feel free to ignore the quoted statement, as it was clearly made by someone who knows nothing about game balancing.

And before the patch, the deciding factor for who won the match was whichever team had the most poptarting Snipers. Personally, I prefer the LRM spam, because at least they have a minimum and a MAXIMUM range. And as soon as PGI patch the Trajectory and Splash Bug (both of which they have admitted to), LRMs will be exactly what they should be.

[Lex Peregrine]

Well I think the main problem with LRMs is the way they work. I can understand why they dont want to follow TT rules, I never played TT myself, but I read most of the classic novels and there should be some similarities with those at least.

The way I see them, they should have two firing modes, if in indirect line-of-sight they should arc like they did before, but if in line-of-sight they should shoot straight like srms, and lower the minimun range to something like 50 so they dont become completely useless for brawlers.
I've been re-reading some books and its clear LRMs usually dont all hit, but those that do can cause good damage, so I think they should have their damage increased even more, as well as their spread, so there's a good chance that even over half of them can miss a target. They're turning rate should also be reduced, they're not long range streaks after all.

This way LRMs fire without line-of-sight could work similar to artillery, the spread could even get bigger with range, and they would hit a large area possibly damaging multiple mechs. While firing at short range should make it more difficult to hit unless the target is comming straight at you, due to lower missile turn rate.

So:
short range - smaller spread but less time to adapt to target movement (some chance of missing completely even with lock)
long range - larger spread but higher chance to hit the enemy's position

you figure out what Artemis and the other assists can do.

[Chameleon Silk]

everyone can argue about this and that or how its better/worse then poptarters but they have openly said the divepoint was pushed to far forward, once the dive point is fixed they will be balanced because cover will once again work, its only when an enemy mech's friend is providing the lock that they are broken and that's why 1 light at your ankles spells disaster, fix the dive point and the whole crazy broken LRM game will be fixed, the real question is how long it takes them to fix the dive point and hotfix it (i mean its already fine for the direct fire so why is it so hard for them to set the indirect the same way.. seems like the code is already there)

[Brkojle]

LRM's for the first time do something that LRMs should do. Physics of their flight path is also okay. If PGI do anything about that we will be back in PPC world.

Have you notice that 3 AMS will clear sky of them? I tried my LRM boat on few mobsters...all 3 of them had AMS, I had 2x20 and 1x15 LRM....sky was cleared. You are just to eager to change your silly winin' builds. I see stalkers 5S without any of 2 possible AMS's, just with 4 PPC's.

Crybabies

[Dude42]

Why are you guys having such problems with LRM boats? Protip: get close.
I mean how did you guys deal with ERPPC poptarts that didn't even HAVE a minimum range, much less a 200m zone of no damage.

Edit: Oh wait. That's right. The people complaining are the poptarts.

Edited by Dude42, 23 May 2013 - 04:12 AM.

[Atak Snajpera]

Brkojle, on 23 May 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

Physics of their flight path is also okay.

Yeah right.... This is how current flight path looks like.

Current flight path only shows how lazy was programmer

Edited by Atak Snajpera, 23 May 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[Shiro Matsumoto]

Ok 2 of my Mechs are LRM-Carriers, a Trebuchet and a Catapult. They were it even before the last patch, and will stay that way, cause i love the feel of LRMs launching, and playing fire support for others.

But really, they ARE too good right now. 2 further kills in game from just launching an LRM 15 to a target somewhere within 1000 meters, (whilst standing in a valley, with a half-demolished Mech, after a won duel.... in Frozen City..... is overpowered.

.Please adjust the flight curve as fast as possible.. well.. and the splash damage. Speed and Lock feels fine.

[Osski]

Chameleon Silk, on 22 May 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

^ THAT, I'm still playing but I can't say im enjoying working on my blackjack and some of mechs I've retired until the LRMs are not OP since it would just thrash their statistics.

Not sure if you're aware that the devs plan to wipe all stats when they implement achievements. So play and enjoy and don't worry about that for now. : )

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Osski, on 22 May 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

It's not worth noting that all the 'mechs in this demonstration die with cored center torsos and minimal damage to the rest of their frames?

Uh I just said I was doing the exact same thing pre-patch. Non-moving targets + Artemis = ALL CENTER TORSO DAMAGE.

Do you think I was killing mechs in 2 shots if it wasn't all going center torso?

Let me repeat, do not link training grounds videos as proof of anything.

[Brkojle]

Atak Snajpera, on 23 May 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

Yeah right.... This is how current flight path looks like.

Current flight path only shows how lazy was programmer

Ehm....what u draw is balistic trajectory of a bullet...maybe I missed something .... LRM's are guided or not ?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

TruePoindexter, on 23 May 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

I don't know if I would say it's dynamic - my experience has been pretty static. LRM boats abound now. Honestly the part that really bugs me isn't the LRMs but the play style they encourage. People just sit in the back waiting for someone to spoon feed them targets. God help them if they encounter a coordinate group because there's no amount of LRM fire that will save them.

Bad players are bad. This has nothing to do with LRM's. Ever see that Atlas standing on top of a hill 1200m away trying to snipe with his PPC's, and refusing to move. Hoping the opposing team will step into his line of sight?

Same thing.

Why does it seem like people separate LRM's from every other weapon system and feel like bad players using LRM's are some how different than bad players using any other weapons?

[Fooooo]

Lagster, on 23 May 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

i thought about that, but it's not like we can aim where the LRMs go, so they cant say that "I was actually hitting the torsos and deserve to deal torso damage" cause any torso hits won't be due to their intention or skill, just the way the missiles were coded to fly. Which as we now can see causes many unforseen problems if hit location was taken into account for a homing weapon...

Its not a bad idea imo.

Its probably the simplest way to imitate the missiles hitting different areas without trying to make the actual missile hit that specific bone to score a hit there.....which has a lot of variables.............

So a LRM20, 2 or 3 will hit CT, 2 or 3 RT, 2 or 3 LT, 2 or 3 RA, LA, LL ,RL etc etc.
Adjust dmg from there.

If you could do this different for each LRM pack it may even work better. In that you could set an LRM5 to ALL hit the CT, or 3 or 4. (dont want 6 LRM5 boats just beacuse they know they will hit CT everytime I guess. )

A change to ams would also be nice, but its not easy to make it do not much to someone using a single LRM5's, vs someone firing 60+LRMS in 1 volley.

I would go for your idea tho as it seems simple.

[Thorqemada]

Kmieciu, on 22 May 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

AMS has 200 meter range. LRM speed is 120 meters/second. That means AMS has 1.67 seconds to shoot the incoming missiles.
AMS has 3.5 DPS while one LRM has 1 HP. 1.67*3.5/1 = 5.8.
Your AMS will shoot down 5 missiles. And the enemy LRM boats usually fire 45-100 missiles.

Most LRM come in waves (3 to 6 waves of LRM) so the AMS can kill 15 to 30 Missiles of a 45 to 100 Missiles attack.
Multiple AMS can kill even more.
All these Mechs with a single LRM 10 or LRM 15 are ineffective - to make LRM work well you need at least 2x LRM15 and the more the better bcs you need to overload the enemies AMS shield.
Yeah, i am sorry you have to put at least 1,5 tons of defensive Hardware into your Warmachine...

The Flightpath will get a fix!

LRM is not the Problem, its still one of the most easy to render useless weapons - Boating in General is the Problem as with any other weapon too!

The game in the last 3 days is more dynamic, has more diversity on Tactics and Mechs than all the weeks b4 and is much more entertaining!

Edited by Thorqemada, 23 May 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[Lex Peregrine]

Thorqemada, on 23 May 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

Most LRM come in waves (3 to 6 waves of LRM) so the AMS can kill 15 to 30 Missiles of a 45 to 100 Missiles attack.
Multiple AMS can kill even more.
All These Mechs with a single LRM 10 or LRM 15 are ineffective - to make LRM work well you need at least 2x LRM15 and the more the better bcs you need to overload the enemies AMS shield.
Yeah, i am sorry you have to put at least 1,5 tons of defensive Hardware into your Warmachine...

The Flightpath will get a fix!

LRM is not the Problem, its still one of the most easy to render useless weapons - Boating in General is the Problem as with any other weapon too!

The game in the last 3 days is more dynamic, has more diversity on Tactics and Mechs than all the weeks b4 and is much more entertaining!

I can agree with that.
I remember missile boating has been a problem since MW2, and some leagues (if not all) even imposed a limit to the number of launchers per mech, or was that for Inferno streaks only?

Anyway it would be nice if in the future the engine allows for some limitation, if not in the mechlab then in the lobby.

I still think if the mechlab as far as weapon hardpoints is concerned was more similar to MW4, we might not be having this problem. Another way would be for the case of missile weapons, instead of a maximun number of hard points per section, have a maximun number of missile tubes based on the mech's variant, a quick look at smurfy's mechlab shows for instances the Stalker 3H should have a maximun of 20 tubes on the arms, and 6 on the torsos, still a powerfull boat if one changes the srm6 for lrm5, but not as bad as the Stalker I saw yesterday with 4 LRM20...

[VXJaeger]

Lex Peregrine, on 23 May 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

but not as bad as the Stalker I saw yesterday with 4 LRM20...

Holy s**t, he must have had army of commandos pushing him, because with that load theres hardly tonnage left for engine, armor or ammo I packed 4*LRM15 to my 5S, and had to install smallest XL-engine who doesn't need external DHS and strip away somewhat 2,5 tons of armor to get tonnage for having enough LRM-ammo, BAP, 2*AMS+ammo and 4*ML fitted in.

Edited by VXJaeger, 23 May 2013 - 06:38 AM.

[Lex Peregrine]

VXJaeger, on 23 May 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Holy s**t, he must have had army of commandos pushing him, because with that load theres hardly tonnage left for engine, armor or ammo

Its sad that when PGI decides to improve the values of a weapon like the LRM or the PPC, there's always people willing to exploit that to the maximun.

[Thorqemada]

Missile Boating is solved very easy:

A. Limit the amount of Ammo a Mech can store
or
B. Increase the Slots Ammunition fills up
or
C. Lower the Ammount of Missiles per ton Ammunation

Imho its borderline insane to field Mech with ~2500 Missiles in the Ammo Bunker...

Edited by Thorqemada, 23 May 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[Ironhippie]

Lex Peregrine, on 23 May 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Its sad that when PGI decides to improve the values of a weapon like the LRM or the PPC, there's always people willing to exploit that to the maximun.

It's like an evil circle, your average pilot has discovered lrms are op so they take adavantage of it. The pilots getting their butts handed to them because of the arc, splash, etc... think "can't beat them, join them" so they start running their lrm boats more". So until this gets fixed, it's more of a matter of staying competitive then exploiting at this point.

Edited by Ironhippie, 23 May 2013 - 06:50 AM.