20 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

There have been a few threads on the topic of repair & rearm lately. It seems some people miss it. I am not one of them. But I still have an idea how you might be able to make it without making the game less fun for those that don't want to deal with it too much.

So, here's my idea.

Repairs cost time x money. The less money you want to spend, the more time you need, and vice versa.


If you're poor or cheap, you have to wait, say 15 minutes until your mech is repaired after the match is finished, but have to pay no cost. You're doing it all yourself, or calling in some favors from friends.

If you're reasonably wealthy in game, you wait, say, 3 minutes, and you must pay C-Bills - enough to be notable, not so much that you go broke.

If you're also reasonably wealthy out of game, you wait no time at all, you just pay some MC, and the mech is finished immediately.

Times, C-Bill and MC cost are obviously debateworthy. I settled for low figures on time, but I think for someone that wants to play a few matches, 15 minutes of repair time is already plenty, that's the maximum match length.

Unlike the old system, you are never forced to pay, so you don't even need to make trials exempt, if you fear that could lead to AFK/Suiciding abuse.

Also, Premium doesn'T give you a Pay-To-Win advantage. The old system could actually force non-Premum players to make "cheap" and weaker mechs occassionaly so they could afford the repairs, while Premium Players lived on their bonuses. This system makes it a purely a question of how long you are willing to wait or grind. If you don't want to pay repairs all the time, you can invest in a second or even third copy of your favorite build and alternate between them while the other ones are in the repair shop. Sure, it takes a lot more time, and Premiums will be done with that earlier, but the important thing is that there is an end point where you are exactly on their level and don't need to worry about switching builds all the time.

And of course, for PGI the plus is that someone might be willing to spend MC to repair his mech because he is out of C-Bills and time. Great for the "whales" that can afford such luxuries.


Note, if you want to use this system to create "balance" between gear - it can't do that. I don't want such a system.
Such a system will always inherently create a Pay-To-Win element for Premum subscribers and Hero or Founder mech ownsers. A 50 % bonus to your earnings means a lot more if everoyne has to subtract repair costs afterwards. If you, say, win 50,000 C-Bills in a match, but need to pay 40,000 C-Bills in repairs, the F2P player gets 10,000 net winnings, but the Premium player with the 50 % bonus gets 50,000 * 1.75 - 40,000 = 35,000 C-Bills. You can't balance this well.

[Rabid Dutchman]

I abstained because I both prefer this idea to traditional R+R, but at the same time I don't want any system like this.

Any system like this in the game sits at a 30/70 good/bad ratio (IMHO). Yes, there are some players who will enjoy the added depth an R+R-esque system will deliver. However, for most players these systems serve as arbitrary restrictions to how much you can play, and may even prompt players to return to other mainstream shooters.

That said, if R+R were to be reintroduced, I would prefer a system like the one you described to the original R+R

[Thomas Covenant]

Best system I've heard, is a "maintenance bonus". The least you get is 0 cbills, the most is some amount less than victory bonus, like 1/4 for example. Lower tier weapons subtract less from the pool than the bigger spendier ones.

[von Pilsner]

If a guy only has one mech, making him wait 15 minutes between matches does not sound like a fun game.

[Hotthedd]

The only thing I would suggest is that there be a C-bill equivalent to the MC option to avoid any P2W allegations.

[Keifomofutu]

I've seen this idea in Warthunder and the repair time seem to get extended to ridiculous levels.

[Fabe]

Keifomofutu, on 22 May 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

I've seen this idea in Warthunder and the repair time seem to get extended to ridiculous levels.

Yeah it's days for some the bigger and higher tiered planes if you are unwilling or unable to pay in game money to repair them on the spot.

[Badconduct]

MustrumRidcully, on 22 May 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

There have been a few threads on the topic of repair & rearm lately. It seems some people miss it. I am not one of them. But I still have an idea how you might be able to make it without making the game less fun for those that don't want to deal with it too much.

So, here's my idea.

Repairs cost time x money. The less money you want to spend, the more time you need, and vice versa.


If you're poor or cheap, you have to wait, say 15 minutes until your mech is repaired after the match is finished, but have to pay no cost. You're doing it all yourself, or calling in some favors from friends.

If you're reasonably wealthy in game, you wait, say, 3 minutes, and you must pay C-Bills - enough to be notable, not so much that you go broke.

If you're also reasonably wealthy out of game, you wait no time at all, you just pay some MC, and the mech is finished immediately.

Times, C-Bill and MC cost are obviously debateworthy. I settled for low figures on time, but I think for someone that wants to play a few matches, 15 minutes of repair time is already plenty, that's the maximum match length.

Unlike the old system, you are never forced to pay, so you don't even need to make trials exempt, if you fear that could lead to AFK/Suiciding abuse.

Also, Premium doesn'T give you a Pay-To-Win advantage. The old system could actually force non-Premum players to make "cheap" and weaker mechs occassionaly so they could afford the repairs, while Premium Players lived on their bonuses. This system makes it a purely a question of how long you are willing to wait or grind. If you don't want to pay repairs all the time, you can invest in a second or even third copy of your favorite build and alternate between them while the other ones are in the repair shop. Sure, it takes a lot more time, and Premiums will be done with that earlier, but the important thing is that there is an end point where you are exactly on their level and don't need to worry about switching builds all the time.

And of course, for PGI the plus is that someone might be willing to spend MC to repair his mech because he is out of C-Bills and time. Great for the "whales" that can afford such luxuries.


Note, if you want to use this system to create "balance" between gear - it can't do that. I don't want such a system.
Such a system will always inherently create a Pay-To-Win element for Premum subscribers and Hero or Founder mech ownsers. A 50 % bonus to your earnings means a lot more if everoyne has to subtract repair costs afterwards. If you, say, win 50,000 C-Bills in a match, but need to pay 40,000 C-Bills in repairs, the F2P player gets 10,000 net winnings, but the Premium player with the 50 % bonus gets 50,000 * 1.75 - 40,000 = 35,000 C-Bills. You can't balance this well.

I posted this idea awhile ago, people did not like it.
I got the idea from Real Racing 3 on the iPhone.

Basically; people don't like to wait.

Edited by Badconduct, 22 May 2013 - 07:09 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Keifomofutu, on 22 May 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

I've seen this idea in Warthunder and the repair time seem to get extended to ridiculous levels.

Interesting, I haven't played Warthunder. I would probably go with a fixed time, however, and not extend it. Yes, even if you're driving an Atlas, it would be 15 minutes.

The time just needs to be inconvenient so that people might decide to rather pay C-Bills or MC. It doesn't need to be outrageous.

von Pilsner, on 22 May 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

If a guy only has one mech, making him wait 15 minutes between matches does not sound like a fun game.

You can pay the C-Bills to have it happen faster.
Though one might want to consider having new players (e.g. cadet bonus times) completely exempt from this system. It's not a detail I'd want a noob to bother with.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 22 May 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[HereticalPsycho]

its a nice theory, but for a while there I only owned a Trebuchet 7k and a Spider 5k with MG's and I was the guy who left the game when he died and dropped in the spider so I could get more money while that game was ending, no body wants that guy in their games because spider 5k's are ****

[DivineEvil]

It would incapacitate premade teams on playing a certain layout several times or will force them to spend real money on completely inexistent benefits. As long as prices and rewards are reasonable and allow for steady income provided the effort to be useful in a match, the standard R&R will work fine as it were. So No.

P.S. and SDR-5K is totally fine with new MGs.

[Khanublikhan]

It is a good idea. But...

...there needs to be something to do in the meantime.

• A mini-game to wile away the time (random screenshots, "spot the urbie").
  
• Technician Assignments (Hire NPC mech-techs, assigning them to mechs lessens the wait).
  
• Missile Command style game made BT specific -- scores feed back to give a bonus in MWO.
  
• Defender / Aerotech style game -- scores feed back to give a bonus in MWO.

[von Pilsner]

MustrumRidcully, on 22 May 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

You can pay the C-Bills to have it happen faster.
Though one might want to consider having new players (e.g. cadet bonus times) completely exempt from this system. It's not a detail I'd want a noob to bother with.

I just don't see the devs going to a system that does not allow a person to play the mech they bought when they want to play it (beyond locking it the duration of the match).

[HereticalPsycho]

DivineEvil, on 22 May 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

P.S. and SDR-5K is totally fine with new MGs.

Ohh? that's good to know, I actually got basics and sold it, but if I ever need a light I did enjoy the spider so might have to try it with the new MGs at some point

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

Hey look. It's another R&R replacement that punishes new players, only mildly inconveniences long-time players, and further incentivizes super-conservative play.

[Sam Slade]

This system is quite common in mobile tablet and smartphone games; it works in this context because these games are played when someone is bored(public transport, etc).

To apply this model to a customers dedicated gaming time as opposed to generic 'downtime' would be folly; claims of P2W and price gouging would surface quickly... as would the angry letters from parents who got little Timmy an MC bundle for his birthday only to have him burn through it in a day(beware the ides of smurfberries)

[Rattazustra]

This is bound to be the most blatantly thoughtless and horrible concept to drive the game straight down into the ground that I have seen in quite a while.

Not only would it cut the player base into pieces like a chainsaw, but it would also break up groups of people who play together and simply bore people to death. The match length in MWO is already extremely short and if you are unlucky you die within the first two minutes.

Oh and it would also COMPLETELY disgruntle any new players. The majority of newbies would be so bored and pissed off by such a time and money drain that they would outright shotgun the game in the face and play something else entirely.

In short it is a concept that would simply sum up as a complete marketing suicide.

[MustrumRidcully]

von Pilsner, on 23 May 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

I just don't see the devs going to a system that does not allow a person to play the mech they bought when they want to play it (beyond locking it the duration of the match).

They had a system where you had to play with that mehc shot up or pay hefty C-Bills. I am not sure that is such a big difference.

Rattazustra, on 24 May 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

This is bound to be the most blatantly thoughtless and horrible concept to drive the game straight down into the ground that I have seen in quite a while.

Not only would it cut the player base into pieces like a chainsaw, but it would also break up groups of people who play together and simply bore people to death. The match length in MWO is already extremely short and if you are unlucky you die within the first two minutes.

Oh and it would also COMPLETELY disgruntle any new players. The majority of newbies would be so bored and pissed off by such a time and money drain that they would outright shotgun the game in the face and play something else entirely.

In short it is a concept that would simply sum up as a complete marketing suicide.

More so than R&R where you always have to pay the full price for repairs, or jump in with a damaged mech? I mean, it might be bad, I don't want R&R and all, but is this worse or better than the other suggestions for R&R?

I mean, several of the other suggestions want to:
- Force payment for all repairs and rearms, and not allow launching with a damaged mech to avoid abuses.
- Make good gear so expensive that it can become prohibitive to run it, in a manner that you can never feel "safe" from it and can never decide to just run your favorite mech build all day. My way at least allows you to accumulate enough C-Bills for spare mechs that you can use and just have the other mechs repair in the mean time.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 24 May 2013 - 02:52 AM.

[Rattazustra]

Make good gear expensive to maintain and you end up with Pay To Win, whether you like it or not.

Example:
Assume Mech Built X is really good due to powerful equipment that is expensive to maintain.
Now assume the cost of maintaining that mech is so high, that there is almost no gain left, or even worse a loss incurred.
That means regular players wont be able to use said mech. Yet those with premium time can and will.
Since it is a superior build, those who pay will have a significant advantage.

The inevitable result is called Pay To Win, aka PTW.


We already had that when R&R was still in place. People with premium time could use expensive Artemis LRM mechs with XL reactors. Those without premium time simply could not, unless they accepted that they'd even make a measly profit if they won, and a loss if they got killed.


However, there is a MUCH simpler way to deal a bit more sensitive with the matter: Percentages. % of your mech destroyed is deducted from the amount of c-bills earned from that particular match. Even that is not really elegant, but at least it would completely cripple people. After all, most mechs are not stripped component by component. The average destroyed percentage of a mech seems to be somewhere around 40%, aka. two components.

[Sam Slade]

I actually really liked the old R&R system... going out in a partly damaged mech was always a challange. Perhaps this could be saved for CW?