38 replies to this topic

[Hayashi]

I'd advocate running Standards on this, using AC/5, and acting as fire support for your Assaults. When they fight, JJ above them and shoot their targets. Attempting to fight alone gives you very little survivability, and you cannot survive attacking a good Light pilot alone without using Streaks - your alpha is too low, and your speed is too low. They will pick the time and place where you fight them, and you'll always be at a disadvantage.

On the other hand being able to support-fire, take a few hits and do moderately high damage in a sustained context is good when you have a walking target board standing next to you.

[Raso]

Gigastrike, on 25 May 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

You're doing some amazing things with standard engines. Up until now I've considered XLs necessary, but I might have to go back to the drawing board for a lot of my mechs.

It's all about balance and purpose. It's not about min/maxing it's about "what do I really get from an extra 2 damage per alpha or 4kph?" There are few design issues a few small lasers and a double heat sink can't fix. When it comes to the ballistic variants, though, I'll simply be at a total loss. I need to really look into them.

Now piloting a mech a certain way is easier said than done, mind you, but as a general if I die in long range combat as a brawler I blame pilot error over the mech and when I die in close range as a support mech I blame my team (and myself) rather than the mech. I can not fault my PPC BJ for lacking a close range punch because it's not meant to do that (I did have a PPC + 4 medium laser build for a while but it was too hot for my tastes).

[SirDubDub]

So far I'd have to say that Kommisar's flying Wang build is the most fun pseudo-effective build I've seen in MWO in a long time.
I'm still trying to work out the kinks of piloting a more fragile medium AC20 boat, but there are definitely some excellent uses for this design, particularly on maps with walled-off areas (canyon, frozen city, parts of Tourmaline) where the gun hunchies or wangs can't be brought to the fight in any practical time window.

As with most heavy ballistic mediums, speed tweak is probably the most important upgrade you can get for the chassis. The mindset of the medium brawler should never be to stand up and slog it out with an Atlas. You should try to keep in mind that you have just enough armor to survive the first punch, and just enough speed to dodge the second. Make your juicy bits (CT, side torsos, gun arm) as hard to hit consistently as possible by twisting to absorb damage, ducking behind cover, and, in the case of the flying Wang, adding vertical tracking to your enemy's difficulties by jumping. Even without jump jets, the BJ-1 excels at this kind of fast paced brawling due to its %15 faster torso twist rate than the BJ-1DC.

If you do happen to find yourself in a BJ-1DC, DO NOT LONE WOLF IT. You are not fast enough to return to your buddies, you are not tough enough to take on anything your size or bigger on the field, and you are too sluggish to fight lights on your own. The best tactic I've found so far for the 1DC is to slap a couple of light autocannons on it and serve as DPS fire support for your fat guys, let them take the damage for you while you pump rounds into their target, acting as a force multiplier.

[Buzzkillin]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5644bc1c0859085

this is my current jack build, and surprisingly it works really well. And people tend to ignore you because of the your smaller profile and "o it's just a black jack" letting you to continue to pelt them. But you can not be caught alone, you must move with your lance and provide support.

[pow pow]

can't post the build right now but the bj-1 with a guass rifle (4 tons of ammo) + 3 ml's, is also quite extraordinary!

sneaky little poptart that is a really good anti-poptarter. When u spot enemy poptarts, just stay behind cover and pop in tune with the gauss rof. it's so small and the gauss is placed so high up on the mech that other poptarts can't really touch you.

needs seismic sensor (like most snipers) because most always the enemy will throw a few lights your way but if you don't get carried away with the sniping and stick somewhat close to your friendly's, lights are no problem.

edit: the build: mini pop sniper bj1

edit2: my next target is to build it with the 1 gauss and 1 er ppc.... need to remove the meds some speed (not enough money to buy a slightly smaller engine) and perhaps 1 ammo or less heat...

edit3: the problem with gauss+ppc is that you can't balance ammo (2 tons max at xl200/79kph speed) with speed. if you sacrifice more speed might as well play my ctf-3d; if you sacrifice ammo, you will be stuck with a single ppc and not a lot of speed, very early in the match. here's the build with 2 tons ammo (haven't built it in game yet, doubt it's viable BJ-1 gauss+erppc )

Edited by pow pow, 28 May 2013 - 05:44 AM.

[Private Backside]

this baby.
seriously. switch to chainfire and regulate it's intensiveness with mouse button.
pulled incredible stunts with it. almost hit 2000xp once.

[juxstapo]

Mastering mine now. Building them with the same philosophy as my lights: Max Armor, Max Engine, JJ's, work from there.

I've been seeing my most success by orbiting my buddy in a heavier mech, essentially adding an extra set of weapons and (as was mentioned) chasing off harassing lights. I suppose my position for the mech would be counter-harasser.

And frankly, it doesn't really feel like a medium to me, more like a well hung light.

[Kaputz]

I am loving this mech for escort/fire support for the fatties. Extra fun to be had when a heavy or another medium decides to go for the 'easy' kill and chases you right into the middle of 2-3 teamates.

I have been running this BJ-1 alot. Since 90% of the time you die to being CT'd I havent found XL's to be a problem at all, I also have found that very very rarely does an enemy hit your arms, they always gor for CT/Legs. hence the lower armor on the arms, and ammo with the guns. and slightly beefier CT armor. Plus it can keep up a nice fire pattern of the AC5's then 2 mlas's, AC5's then the other Mlas's for quite awhile.

Edited by Kaputz, 28 May 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[Sh4dow78]

did any one tried play them this way ?
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d942360fef50ad3
i found it pretty fun to use

[Kael Posavatz]

It is so refreshing to at last find souls with intellect in proportion to their warrior spirit. I am, admittedly, new to MWO, however I have played table-top BattleTech for years on end and it has been my observation that far too many people cannot seem to fully understand the peculiar strengths and weaknesses of Medium-class ‘mechs and so are disposed to ignoring them as much as possible.

Most likely this comes from the Medium-classes not really having a single role in which they excel. Instead there is almost a division within the series as a whole. The heavier 50- and 55-ton machines start to fill the line-roles dominated by the various Heavy and Assault types. The Trebuchets and Hunchbacks in particular, now too slow and heavily armed and armored for the scouting roles of lighter machines, make for excellent light brawler and support-fire units respectively that the lighter Medium-weight BattleMechs cannot hope to match.

Nor should they be expected to, for the tasks that such ‘mechs are best suited to is quite different. The Cicada, among the lightest of the Medium 'mechs, makes for a versatile heavy-scout, capable in both the scouting role and in the counter-scout role, as well as that of a light harasser, but lacks the armament for anything heavier. Which brings me at last to the Blackjack…

Perhaps the best summary for the role of the Blackjack can be found in Rudyard Kipling’s poem Cruisers, and especially the first three verses thereof:

As our mother the Frigate, bepainted and fine,
Made play for her bully the Ship of the Line;
So we, her bold daughters by iron and fire,
Accost and decoy to our masters’ desire.

Now, pray you, consider what toils we endure,
Night-walking wet sea-lanes, a guard and a lure;
Since half of our trade is that same pretty sort
As mettlesome wenches do practice in port.

For this is our office—to spy and make room,
As hiding yet guiding the foe to their doom;
Surrounding, confounding, we bait and betray
And tempt them to battle the sea’s width away.

That is to say, the Blackjack performs ideally in conjunction with other units, even of its own kind, and the last place any Blackjack should want to be on the battlefield is on its own and without support.

They are quick enough to serve as follow-ons to light scouting ‘mechs, with (usually) at least one weapon heavy enough to make an opposing warrior pause consider what he has just encountered. Two or three such ‘mechs together can be sufficient to make an advancing column to scatter into deployment rather than continue their advance (especially if they are properly supported by LRM-equipped units), and yet they remain swift enough to, if properly handled, not become decisively engaged themselves.

Blackjacks work even better as consorts to the 75+ ton Heavy and Assault BattleMechs. They perform admirably as escorts to missile-boats and other support ‘mechs, capable of destroying or driving off lighter machines, and delaying heavier ‘mechs long enough for those they are escorting to respond. They are very good at screening the heavier brawlers, both in parrying long-range attacks as the brawlers close and even more so at drawing anything particularly foolish into the waiting arms—or lasers, missiles and autocannons as the case may be—of its friends. And unlike most light-mechs they carry enough armor to survive as skirmishers.

No, they cannot survive direct-combat with heavier BattleMechs. If a Blackjack does so it is invariable due to pilot error, or the result of a really…messed up situation.

Now, my thoughts as to the ideal Blackjack…

An endo-steel chassis should be one of the first purchases. Ferro-fib armor is a possibility if you have the space for it, but even with maxed armor the mass-savings are less than that of the endo-steel.

Speed, of course, is highly desirable and so a high-rated engine. There are well-reasoned arguments both ways voiced on both this thread and others, mass-savings versus additional viability in the face of combat damage. Personally I think the additional mass freed by an XL engine to be a worthwhile trade. As a lighter Medium BattleMech jumpjets are almost a prerequisite, enabling sharper turns, an additional dimension for both scouting and evading enemy fire, and help in both the screening and skirmishing roles--two or three are adequate, not the four the BJ-3 comes with. Freezers, especially in energy-only combatants like the BJ-3, are a must for most Blackjacks

Armor—if you need maxed armor in a Blackjack you are likely doing something wrong. BJs are not bullet-sponges, but they do need to survive a few hits and I’ve generally found somewhere around 90% to be adequate. CASE—if you are using a standard engine and have either AC ammunition or a gauss cannon in the side torso—is a must, however.

Weapons… There are many good configurations out there, but the better ones have a one or two high-damage long-range energy or ballistic weapon backed by shorter ranged weapons. Most maps don’t seem to have the open ranges to make the longest-ranged PPCs and lasers worthwhile investments (on basis of range alone, heat, mass, and damage need to be considered as well), and LRMs are contrary to both the nature and role of the Blackjack.

Investing 1.5tons in an AMS and ammo I’ve found to be a wise choice, providing an element of protection for both the BJ and whatever ‘mechs it may be escorting or screening. If you are teamed reliably with missile-boats and you and their pilots work reasonably well together a TAG provides a number of benefits, allowing a Blackjack pilot to act as both escort and spotter. Likewise in the escort and (especially) the screening roles a Beagle Active Probe can be a useful, if mass-expensive, investment on a ‘mech with not much mass to spare.

Edited by Kael 17, 05 June 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[mack sabbath]

MonkeyAss, on 28 May 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

this baby.
seriously. switch to chainfire and regulate it's intensiveness with mouse button.
pulled incredible stunts with it. almost hit 2000xp once.

I filled your empty 1.94 tons and 2 crits into AMS, head ammo.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bf735cd02ad2357

Edited by Die Primate Die, 05 June 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Sh4dow78]

this is the best what u can get with this mech IMO

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...673d42737b0e9b8

8xML 19DHS and 110km/h its my most liked mech for now crazy alphas to slow moving targets, this mech eat lights as well just aim legs and GG! i have 3xML left mouse 3xML right mouse and tors are on space, overheat ? almost never even on hottest map only if u keep spam alpha strike all the time but if u keep shut down its mean this mech its not for u. Most time top 3 dmg dealer in team 500+ its really not a problem

[John Powers]

I'm a newbie, I'm not very good, but anyone who says a BJ can't get kills is lying to someone- themselves, or you.

My kdr is low, but like I said, I'm new, and make tactical errors. On the times that I have a team that plays at least semi-decently together, I'm clocking in 1-3 kills, plus 1-5 assists. What do I mount? ER PPC's. My worst deaths are jumping in where I shouldn't, panicking, and overheating. Most of my deaths are due to tactical errors, not any failing of my mech's design.

Are there stronger mechs, faster mechs, more "kill-y" mechs out there? Yes.
But wow, I love my "useless" little BJ.

[jper4]

i'm doing fine with mine so far- by my standards anyway. only the BJ and it's papa Jager are the only mechs i have two varients with kdrs over 1.0 (of course my lowest kdrs on each mech has the best w/l records...) overall kdr is .84 but slowly climbing- left closed beta at .45 <shudders>. i only have 6 mechs at 1.0 or better and 2 of them are BJs.

the 1J has been the toughest for me so far- not really a JJ person. think i stripped it down to one just to hop over things or clear the top of that valley in canyon. use ac5 and LL in an arm and a pair of MLs torso. tried different combos but this seems decent enough without repeating my builds. speed in the 70s with the tweak.

the 1x i have max xl engine, max armor 4ml/4sl for heat and am wasting 2.4 tons because i ran out of slots to toss another heatsink on. has endo and moves at 116kph- it's the closest i have to a light and seems most distracting if it has space to move in. just had a match where it was me and papa Jager against a caraphrat. caraphrat keep shooting at me while pops picked him apart from further away. i ended up finally getting killed when phrat was at 41% and no sooner did i switch to specator mode did the Jager kill it. like someone else said it does make a nice light support mech for conquest- usually i can get a shot or two in at the enemy contesting light before it realizes i'm there. has trouble by itself though.

decided on the dc for the last one (see- JJs: real bad as to why i avoided the 3). tried 2 ERPPCs on the torsos with shield arms but didn;t really like it. tried 2ML 2LL for a couple of tries and was meh. switched it up to AC2s and 2MLs which was kinda ok but was iffy on heat. tried dual AC5s and SLs but couldn;t get a lot of ammo on it. finally settled on "Baby Boomer" ac20 and a torso and arm ML on the otherside with 5 tons of ammo (tried 4 tons but ran out at least half the time). runs in the 70s with tweak and usual endo/xl/max armor combo. they never seem to expect the ac20 to come from the BJ- i can usually get two shots off before they realize it's me.

[Private Backside]

Die Primate Die, on 05 June 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

I filled your empty 1.94 tons and 2 crits into AMS, head ammo.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bf735cd02ad2357

oh.
haha, being not a fan of AMS (piloting is best AMS!) i usually forget about it )

[Sh4dow78]

MonkeyAss, on 10 June 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

oh.
haha, being not a fan of AMS (piloting is best AMS!) i usually forget about it )

Well AMS its SUPPORT thing, while u might not need it ur slower friend might use ur AMS cover to move from point to point, and if u have slots/tons to spare always consider use it. Thats also reason why ppl whine on forum about LRM just bcoz they dont use AMS its simple. Maybe 1 AMS its not very effective but if u play with like 4 friends in lance and all of u use it u will notice LRM not doing that much to u/friends.

[Voivode]

I have to say I really didn't like the Blackjack at first but as I've run them I've come to enjoy it a lot more. I love my 1X as a light hunter and skirmisher, running 116.8kph after speed tweak with 6medlasers and 2smalls. I run my 1DC with a single AC10 in the right arm (just prefer it on the right, but that's me) 4 tons of ammo, 2medlasers, 2smalls. Thing will rack up the damage nicely and I can protect myself well by peeking only that arm around a corner, just enough to fire without having to worry about clearance with the left arm.

[Grendel408]

I don't personally have my BJ-1DC on the Smurfy site, but here's the basics...

Maxed armor (minus two points), endo-steel structure, double heatsinks, XL200 (moderate increase in speed from the stock 180). Armament includes, 2 ER PPCs and 2 Medium Pulse lasers and AMS... that's it LOL! I've played with mixing up other weapon variants into it but this overall loadout has been very successful. It runs hot on Caustic and Tourmaline, but anyone with common sense can avoid overheating... sometimes even the best of us can force a shutdown at the worst moments.

Another variant which I am saving for is installing an XL220 and swapping the MPLs for standard Medium Lasers, keeping my DPS relative to what it's currently at, but running just a bit cooler. On average I can get between 350-600 damage per match in this... but you gotta think of your style of gameplay. This design is great for staying at range (especially in those larger maps) and plinking away, or playing the backfield with direct fire support for the bigger 'Mechs on the field.

Edited by Grendel408, 12 June 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[Revik Neron]

This is the build I have been running recently
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5e4d39039211f45
been doing pretty well in it. I know the BJ isn't an ideal ballistics platform, but the AC-2 is just to damn useful, and its nice to have something that can maintain DPS when you get up close to over heating, especially on hot maps